Sexism and sexualization in the media.

[leibowde84]

In a lot of triple A games, the female characters don't have a lot of development. This is not true for all games and there are some good examples, but a lot of characters are reduced entirely to eye candy.

What's wrong with eye candy, whether it is men or women?

Generally the sexualization of men in videogames relates to a power fantasy for the player, rather than the female sexualization which generally reduces a female to something for men to desire.

This is a comedy video, but I think it well encapsulates why the sexualization of men is often empowering whereas women is (generally not) within videogames

You are forgetting that attractive women have a lot of power over men, though.

 

[leibowde84]

Grand Theft Audio is a series of popular games.

Generally women's involvement in the series consists of prostitutes which have no characterization and no purpose beyond being a thing for the male player to use.

That is a different story. I don't think that is appropriate, especially for children.

 

[leibowde84]

Well when the entire presence of women in a large section of triple A games are there entirely to appeal to the desires of men, it alienates a segment of the audience, no?

So do romantic comedies. Video games don't have to appeal to everyone. First person shooter games don't appeal to me, as I find them boring. The only game I truly enjoy is NHL, but I don't fault the videogame developers for that. They shouldn't be responsible for pleasing everyone.

 

[leibowde84]

I think this needs an explanation.
They don't in videogames. (Maybe with the exception of Bayonetta and Vampire the Masquerade).

You need an explanation as to how beautiful women have power?

 

[leibowde84]

Yes.

Disclaimer: You are not aloud to judge me for the following.

OK, this is an easy one. I, for example, have a strong liking for short brunettes. Don't ask me why, because I can't explain it. Don't like blondes, never have.

When I see a striking brunette out, I will go above and beyond to try to talk to her and make her feel special. I will maybe buy her a drink, buy her dinner, go to events that I absolutely despise to make her happy, tolerate people that irritate me, etc. In some cases, she might cause me to do something stupid in an effort to impress her. Thus, she has a certain power over me.

Now, I am not talking about a girl that I know personally enough to say that I "care about her". We are just talking about looks right now. After a while, if the girl has a truly terrible personality, that power will fade. But, it certainly exists.

 

[leibowde84]

I'm allowed to judge you as much as I want to


Okay but here lies the difference.
The hypermasculine characteristics of figures like Kratos allow the player to experience a power fantasy. Where they personally feel more powerful as an individual.
In the example you have provided the female character is empowered by men's attention.
Do you see how this is not a positive thing?

For example: With characters like Bayonetta or Widowmaker from Overwatch. The feminine seductive trope is supposed to be a tool of manipulation and or power on the side of the woman. They are not empowered by grabbing the man's attention, but what they can use from it.
While I would say Bayonetta is still objectified, there is a distinct difference between these character's sexuality manifesting into individual power and a woman being attractive so a man might want to treat her well.

Do you see this difference?

There is a difference, but the underlying power is the same. Women have power due to attraction. Super heroes have power due to fear.

 

[leibowde84]

I disagree.

The power fantasy for the man is internalized power.

The woman's power comes from what men think about her rather than from herself.

That's a rather poor message to be sending, no?

The power for the man is external. Physical strength doesn't mean a thing in this context unless other people fear you and, as a result, you have power over them. Or, you have power over them because you can harm them physically. Both the attractive man and the strong man get their power externally.

 

[leibowde84]

Even within your example.

The woman's power derives from men who find her attractive.
The man's power derives from whoever he wants to hit.
I honestly don't understand how one can not see why it's wrong that the woman's empowerment is determined by men's opinions, rather than herself.

I agree that the woman's empowerment is determined by men's opinions. My point is that the man's power is determined by other men's ability to fight back or their fear. Both are external.

For example, if the woman was attractive, but all alone, there would be no power, as it is external.

But, if the man was all alone with no one to fight, his strength would be useless as well (in the context of the video game).

So both get their power externally from the reactions of others.

 

[leibowde84]

Do you not see how this subjugates the woman?

I am saying that you seem to have a double standard. It's OK for men to be portrayed in this way, but it isn't OK when women are.

 

[HonestJoe]

You can find all kinds of stuff like this in video games, tabletop games, movies, shows…

… great literature, classical art, opera, religious scripture, ancient myth, cave paintings.

I think there are a set of concepts represented here but they’re not exclusive to the modern media that is so often blamed for their existence. That media and the art within it simply reflects reality in the same way arts and entertainment have always done and the imbalances and contrasts in perceptions of men and women are inevitably going to be a major element of that.

There are some legitimate concerns in the extent of some of this imagery, how it’s presented and how it’s perceived by its audience, especially when that audience is young and thus impressionable but I think that’s a much wider and more complex issue that it is so often presented as being. So many people make such a big issue about specific examples of this kind of thing (typically in a field or media they’re not interested in or don’t like) yet ignore similar examples across all other types of media (especially those they enjoy themselves).

 

[Kilgore Trout]

If these are the problems we have to mull over, consider ourselves lucky.

Protip: marketing always filters for what people want, not what they think they should want.

 

[leibowde84]

The reason why it's okay is that the portrayal itself isn't necessarily what's wrong. It's what the portrayal gets across.

If you admit that women's empowerment in said games is derived from men, it is conceding that said men regularly have power over these women, no?

That's the issue. So no. There is no double standard.



This is the issue.

The man's empowerment (through strength for example) allows them to do great feats of strength. Jump great distances, perform athletic feats, etc. This power is part of the character rather than outside them. It does not matter what women think of the man, he has the power anyways. The man does not the lose the power to lift a heavy thing because the heavy thing doesn't find it attractive.

Even if you see the man's power as external, clearly you see how the man's power is not derived from the opinions of women, whereas the woman's is.

The issue is that the woman's abilities in said example is subjugated to men's opinions. That's a rather ****ty message to be sending to your audience.

I really don't know what else to say. I feel as though I've explained why something is sexist and someone has responded, "So?".

Do you buy the video games in question?

 

[Rival]

I'm a girl and I don't care. They can make female figures look how they want.

 

[leibowde84]

Not generally.
However it is important to be critical of media even if you enjoy and consume it.

The only way to make progress seems to be to decrease the revenue stream. They aren't going to change unless people stop buying the games.

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

I'm a girl and I don't care. They can make female figures look how they want.

Thus far one of the only quotes I agree with.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't care. It's fantasy.

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

I don't care. It's fantasy.

Oh we got two! can I can an amen!

 

[YmirGF]

So a couple of these have already made their rounds on various other sites but as of yet I haven't seen them around here.

I play a miniature game called infinity which has for quite some time been accused of sexism because of the looks of some of the female miniatures. Here is an example of someone talking about just that

Impetuous Orders: Sexism in miniature - The worst of Infinity

I should point out this is not all of the infinity models and a good portion of them look better. These are old sculpts after all but still.

Impetuous Orders: Sexism in miniature 2 - It's not all bad

You also have games like smite being accused of having overly sexualized images of goddesses

Why goddesses in Smite are so naked? • r/Smite

You can find all kinds of stuff like this in video games, tabletop games, movies, shows ect. My question is do you think this is a problem? Does this actually represent sexism or is this looking for a problem where there isn't one?

I personally have to admit I am sometimes bothered by women in skimpy outfits on the battlefield. Not because of the sexual nature but the sheer impracticality of being half naked in a warzone instead of wearing real armor but that is just me.

My bloodthirsty sprite killer, "Sweet Pea", a Paragon level 708 female barbarian, wears full armor covering her comfortably and is tweaked to the hilt, but prefers to coat her armor with an invisibility potion so that she appears to be in her bra and knickers. Very much a look, but touch at your own peril, sort of thing. She picked up the invisibility thing from her sister "Precious", who is a Paragon 896 (or so) barbarianette. Personally, I don't care if some see it as sexist. It's how she looks best.

Spoiler

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

@Sartre I am actually curious now. Do you play a decent amount of games?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

@Sartre I am actually curious now. Do you play a decent amount of games?

I do. From almost every genre. I don't share quite every opinion @Sartre has (I think that depictions of women in video games is more a reflection of current attitudes towards women in fiction than causing them), but I agree on most everything else.