Shakespeare's educational value?

[Jaymes]

I was lucky. I saw a most awesome performance of Macbeth at the Shakespeare Tavern in Atlanta. The actors were all wonderful, and they spoke in a way that got the point across, even though they were speaking gobbledy gook.

The people who did the witches were awesome... I kept cracking up from the faces they were making. Everything about the play was so expressive I couldn't help falling in love with it.

 

[SoulTYPE]

But is the English used in Shakespeare not valid today? Who talks like that these days?

 

[No*s]

But is the English used in Shakespeare not valid today? Who talks like that these days?

Oh, languages are always valid, but you're right. Anyone who learns English solely from Shakespeare is up the creek. However, it certainly can enhance our English.

 

[SoulTYPE]

SO can reading a kid's alphabet book.

 

[No*s]

SO can reading a kid's alphabet book.

There is a clear difference in quality .

 

[SoulTYPE]

True but both teach the same concept, one is more advanced.

 

[No*s]

It's Shakespeare's being advanced that makes it special in that respect.

 

[SoulTYPE]

Yes, yes it does.

I finally got to reply after putting up with this appearing twice:

I knew clicksor was persistent, but....

 

[No*s]

What was this for?

 

[kiwimac]

Two examples of Early Middle English:

"...And in the concluding section, containing the annals from 1132 to I154, and written somewhere about the latter year, we find Middle English fairly started on its career. A specimen of this new tongue will best show the change that had taken place:

1140 A.D.And te eon of Angmu wafrd ded, and his sune Henri toc to IDe rice. And te cuen of France to-dnlde fra IDe king, and sc~ corn to IDe iunge eorl Henri. and he toe hire to wiue, and al Peitou mid hire. IDa ferde he mid micel fmrd into Engleland and wan castles and te king ferde agenes him mid micel mare ferd. IDoIDwiethere fuhtten hi noht, oc ferden IDe wrcebiscop and te wise men betwux heorn, and makede that sahte that te king sculde ben lauerd and king wile he liuede. and nfter his dwi ware Henri king. and he helde him for fader, and he him for sune, and sib and snhte sculde ben betwyx heom, and on al Engleland.5

With this may be contrasted a specimen of southern English, from 10 to 20 years later (Hatton Gospels, Luke i. 466)

Da cww~ Maria: Mm saule mersed drihten, and mm gast geblissode on gode minen hielende. For lDam IDe he geseah his Ilnene eadmodnysse. So~lice henen-for~ me eadige segge~ alle cneornesse; for lDam IDe me mychele IDing dyde se IDe mihtyg ys; and his name is halig. And his mildheortnysse of cneornisse on cneornesse hine ondraedende. He worhte maegne on hys earme; he to-daelde IDa ofermode, on moda heora heortan. He warp IDa rice of setlle, and IDa eadmode he up-an-hof. Hyngriende he mid gode ge-felde, and la ofermode ydele for-let. He afeng israel his cniht, and gemynde his mildheortnysse; Swa he spree to ure fiederen, Abrahame and his sude on a weorlde..."


Here is 10th C English (Scots dialect)


"... From a 10th century version

Hwæt! Ic swefna cyst secgan wylle,
hwæt me gemætte to midre nihte,
syðþan reordberend reste wunedon!
þuhte me þæt ic gesawe syllicre treow
on lyft lædan, leohte bewunden,
beama beorhtost. Eall þæt beacen wæs
begoten mid golde. Gimmas stodon
fægere æt foldan sceatum, swylce þær fife wæron
uppe on þam eaxlegespanne.
Beheoldon þær engel dryhtnes ealle,
fægere þurh forðgesceaft.
Ne wæs ðær huru fracodes gealga,
ac hine þær beheoldon halige gastas,
men ofer moldan, ond eall þeos mære gesceaft..."

One more plus some info to help:

"... Early and Middle Scots scribes never managed to establish a single standardised spelling but operated a system of free variation based on a number of spelling variants. Some scribes used their own variants but this was relatively seldom. Early and Middle Scots used a number of now obsolete letters and letter combinations:

þ (thorn) was equivalent to the modern th as in thae.
3 (yogh) in n3 was /J/ as in the French Bretagne. It later changed to /N/ or y /J/ leading to the modern spellings with z and y as in Menzies ['mINVs] and Cunyie [1].
quh was equivalent to the modern wh.
sch was equivalent to the modern sh.
ß represents the modern s. The initial ff was a stylised single f.
-ys, -is. The inflection -ys once [Is, Iz] now -s. Hence the place name Glamis [2].
d after an n was often (and still is) silent i.e. barrand is ['bar@n] = barren.
i and j were often interchanged. h was often silent.
l after a and o had become vocalised and remained in use as an orthographic device to indicate vowel length. Hence the place names Falkirk [3], Kirkcaldy [4], Culross [5] and Culter ['kut@r].
i after a vowel was also used to denote vowel length e.g.ai /a:/, ei /e:/ oi /o:/ and ui /2/.
u, v and w were often interchanged.
-ch and -th (-cht, -tht) Some scribes affixed a t after -ch and -th (-cht, -tht) this was an unpronounced orthographic feature.
Ane represented the numeral ane as well as the indefinite article an and a, and was pronounced similar to modern usage i.e. Ane Satyre of the Thrie Estaitis was pronounced a satyre o the thrie estaits.
yng, -ing The verbal noun (gerund) yng, (-ing) differentiated itself from the present participle -and in Middle Scots. The the final d in -and and the final g in -yng, (-ing) being silent, as in cryand and techynge.


from
The Legend of the Saints 14th Century.


XXXIII.--GEORGE.


3ete of sancte george is my wil,
gyf I connandes had þere-til
to translat þe haly story,
as wrytine in þe buk fand I.
for he wes richt haly mañ
& fele tynt saulis to god wane,
nocht anerly thru his techynge
bot erare thru sample geffine,
hou men to god suld stedfast be
& thole for hyme perplexite,
of lyfe na ded dout hafand nane,
bot to resyst ay to sathane
& lordis of mykil mycht.
& men callis hym oure lady knycht
& men of armys ofte se I
in til his helpe mykil affy,
& namely quhen þai are in ficht.


From
The Brus
by Barbour (1375 Transcribed by Ramsay in 1489)..."


English was and is a Germanic tongue but one that has been heavily influenced initially by the Romance languages of French and Latin and then over the years most other languages have been rifled for words. To quote James D. Nicholl:


"...The problem with defending the purity of the English Language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary..."


Shakespeare is definitely LATE Middle English, post Great Vowel Shift / Great Consonant Shift.


As for the bard I like


Richard III
Othello
As you like it
A Midsummer Night's dream
The scottish play (Macbeth)
Julius Caesar
Hamlet
His Sonnets


Kiwimac

 

[No*s]

That is a very good post Kiwomac.

Most linguists I have read specify that Modern English starts at the end of the Great Vowel Shift. I'm curious how you make the distinction between Modern and Middle.

I would also have thought that the 10th century segments would have been Old on the same authority. It still had the older vocabulary and was still highly inflectional, especially compared to English from, say, the 12th century.

However, I'm not an expert .

 

[kiwimac]

Indeed the 10th Century example was given in order to show what "Old" Old English looked like. I agree that modern English begins at the end of the Great Vowel Shift BUT as the examples given show, the older, more inflectional style of English held sway for a long time.

I must add that Modern English did not suddenly appear at the end of the GVS, it grew organically out of the English that had previously been in use, the two forms continued side by side for some time until by about the 14th-16th Centuries we can clearly see the earliest stages of Modern English.

From Wikipedia:

"... Great Vowel Shift

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The Great Vowel Shift was a major change in the pronunciation of the English language, generally accomplished in the 15th century, although evidence suggests it began as early as the 14th century. The shift continued for some time into the 16th century, spreading toward the non-metropolitan and non-port areas. It represented a change in the long vowels (ie. a vowel shift).

The values of the long vowels form the main difference between the pronunciation of Middle English and Modern English, and the Great Vowel Shift is one of the historical events marking the separation of Middle and Modern English. Originally, these vowels had "continental" values much like those remaining in liturgical Latin. However, during the Great Vowel Shift, the two highest long vowels became diphthongs, and the other five underwent an increase in tongue height and one of them came to the front.

The principal changes (with the vowels shown in IPA) are roughly as follows. However, exceptions occur, the transitions were not always complete, and there were sometimes accompanying changes in orthography:

• /aː/ → /eɪ/ (as in make)
• /ɛː/ → /eɪ/ or /iː/ (as in break or beak)
• /eː/ → /iː/ (as in feet)
• /iː/ → /aɪ/ (as in mice)
• /ɔː/ → /oʊ/ (as in boat)
• /oː/ → /uː/ (as in boot)
• /uː/ → /aʊ/ (as in mouse)

This means that the vowel in the English word make was originally pronounced as in modern English father, but has now become a diphthong, as it is today in standard pronunciations of British English (see Received Pronunciation); the vowel in feet was originally pronounced as a long Latin-like e sound; the vowel in mice was originally what the vowel in feet is now; the vowel in boot was originally a long Latin-like o sound; and the vowel in mouse was originally what the vowel in moose is now, but has now become a diphthong.

The Great Vowel Shift was first studied by the Danish linguist Otto Jespersen (1860-1943), who coined the term.

The effects of the shift were not entirely uniform, and differences in degree of vowel shifting can sometimes be detected in regional dialects both in written and spoken English, for example in the speech of much of Scotland. The surprising speed and the exact cause of the shift are continuing mysteries in linguistics and cultural history, but some theories attach the cause to the mass immigration to South East England after the black death, where the difference in accents led to certain groups modifying their speech to allow for a standard pronunciation of vowel sounds. The different dialects and the rise of a standardised middle class in London led to changes in pronunciation, which continued to spread out from London.

Because English spelling was becoming standardised in the 15th and 16th centuries, the Great Vowel Shift is responsible for many of the peculiarities of English spelling. Spellings that made sense according to Middle English pronunciation were retained in Modern English..."


As a follow on a good basic text is Otto Jespersen's "Growth and Structure of the English Language.


Kiwimac