Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
DakotaGypsy said:
Iran, Iraq, Uzbekistan, Adjerbayjan, Syria - also Libya, and Morocco. Why? Because they ARE a secular state, not an Islamic state.
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Shame on Islam! Shame! Shame!
- Thread starter DakotaGypsy
- Start date
Iran, Iraq, Uzbekistan, Adjerbayjan, Syria - also Libya, and Morocco. Why? Because they ARE a secular state, not an Islamic state.
EiNsTeiN
Boo-h!
thats true...I (as a muslim) dont agree with that...
I have a sister, and i never wanna such a thing to happen with her!
the problem here is with the dear mate who posted the thread...cuz i didnt like the thread title!!
it's not just an openion...i didnt like it cuz it shows the preception he made about islam when he read the article...
let me give u an example:
I watch Opera and Dr. Phill...Both present lots of troubles in the American society..It's totally unfair to relate these troubles to Christianity, cuz they are not...
the same thing happens with Pakistan...
You are saying shame shame in Islam, but you totally forgot that we are more than 30 countries...I know lots of women living happly in Islamic countries...
I have girl mates in college, living normal live here
We need to do Paradigm shifting so that to free our minds while judging any other religion..
Thanx
MdmSzdWhtGuy
Well-Known Member
DakotaGypsy said:
The history of the WORLD is sordid. And a view of that history from the time that writing has been available makes it pretty clear that many many many have suffered due to religion and cultural differences. The treatment of women, homosexuals, and anyone considered an infidel, especially Jews by the followers of the religion of peace since the 7th century is deplorable, and I don't care who wants to jump up on their political correctness soapbox to tell me otherwise.
Christianity prior to the Enlightenmnent was not much better, so don't think I am picking on one offender and not another.
B.
Judgement Day
Active Member
What if I tell you that 99.8% of Turkey's population are MuslimsDakotaGypsy said:
.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Judgement Day said:What if I tell you that 99.8% of Turkey's population are Muslims
Well, its still a secular state, Ataturk pretty efficiently destroyed the Sultancy and Caliphate.
Regards,
Scott
DakotaGypsy
Active Member
Valid point, Einer, the Title is provocative but I chose to make it so to energize discussion.EiNsTeiN said:
And, you also raise an interesting question. Yes, Islamic women live quite happily and freely in the United States--those who are part of certain Islamic sects, that is--as well as in Canada and most European nations, but what about in a theocratically Islamic nation?
That is the ultimate test of freedom and happiness for women.
Yes, a number of Saudi Arabian women may say that they are happy and feel protected but--do they have the freedom to say anything else? And, also, there are many voices of dissension within the nation of Saudi Arabia and in other oppressive realms.
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
There are over 1.2 billion Muslims in the world, lady. All over the world, not just in the U.S., Canada, Europe and the Middle East. The largest population of Muslims is in SouthEast Asia, not the Middle East, in countries like Indonesia and Malaysia. There are plenty of countries that are "Muslim" (in the way that the U.S. is a "Christian nation") where women are ok. (Not great, but there are other factors that lead to oppression ya know, other much more salient factors.) What is happening in Pakistan and some other countries is absolutely horrible, no question. But the media chooses to show you this story and not the stories of millions of other women living in Muslim countries who are happy and well. And you choose to take this story and indict an entire religion.DakotaGypsy said:
DakotaGypsy
Active Member
Consider:
If the same charge were levelled against UU, using a case with some justification, wouldn't most of UU, those who are the officials of UU, wouldn't they work night and day to change the situation?
If the same charge were levelled against UU, using a case with some justification, wouldn't most of UU, those who are the officials of UU, wouldn't they work night and day to change the situation?
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
There is another thread on the results of a recent poll showing that atheists are the most distrusted minority in America, with people saying that they didn't see atheists as "sharing their vision of American society."DakotaGypsy said:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29632&highlight=poll
Now I for one do not agree with the majority of those polled. I see nothing incompatible with being atheist and being fully invested in a shared vision for the well-being of America. Nevertheless the vast majority of Americans have this negative view of athiests. Funny tho, I do not see atheists working "night and day to change the situation." Do you think that this constitutes evidence that these people are right, that atheism actually is anti-American?
My guess is that you are going to say this isn't fair, that atheism is not a religion, not organized as such, and there are no "officials" of atheism to be doing this type of PR work. Well, who are the "officials" in Islam? I just said that there are over 1.2 billion Muslims in the world, all over the world, constituting nearly 20% of the world's population btw. There are Muslim "officials" in one part of the world that contradict Muslims "officials" in another part of the world, and there are Muslims "officials" who contradict each other within the same country. With 1.2 billion people (probably much more than that now actually) what makes you think they would or could speak with a unified voice?
What makes you think that religion is the dominating factor in terms of social behavior over, say, things like nationality and ethnicity and history? Why wouldn't a Muslim in Burma have in some ways more in common with a Buddhist in Burma than a Muslim in India or in Canada?
It's very simple. If Islam is the reason why women are being treated so badly in Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan... then it would also be the case that women are treated just as badly in other predominantly Muslim countries. There are over 50 countries in which Muslims are the majority. Indonesia has more Muslims than Pakistan. And while I wouldn't necessarily call Indonesia a hotbed of feminism, women are doing well there overall, and the way that Islam is interpreted there is much more "progressive" with respect to women. (Why doesn't the media talk about that?) If Islam and women's rights can coexist in other countries, then Islam is not the root cause of misogynistic oppression in some countries. Something else is causing Islam to be interpreted that way.
just for reference:
http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa120298.htm
DakotaGypsy
Active Member
http://select.nytimes.com/2006/04/02/opinion/02kristof.html
April 2, 2006
Op-Ed Columnist
Mother of a Nation
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
MEERWALA, Pakistan
I don't know whether journalists felt it around the young Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr., but around Mukhtar Mai I sense the presence of greatness.
Mukhtar, who also goes by the name Mukhtaran Bibi, is the young peasant woman she doesn't know exactly how old she is who three years ago was gang-raped on order of a local tribal council. Instead of killing herself, as was expected of any self-respecting woman, she prosecuted her attackers, used compensation money to start schools, and started a nationwide revolution to empower women.
Every day, poor and desperate women and girls with tear-smudged cheeks arrive in this remote and impoverished village, seeking sanctuary. Every night, up to a dozen of them sleep on the floor in Mukhtar's bedroom beside her. (She has given her bed to the principal of the girls' elementary school she started here.)
One visitor is a lovely 7-year-old girl who breaks down in huge, heartbreaking sobs as she tells how the servant of a rich family raped her, and how the rich family then threatened to kill her and her family unless she recanted her accusation.
Then there's Fauzia Bibi, a 30-year-old who was raped and tortured by eight men for two days to punish her family because her uncle supposedly had an affair with a woman from their clan. The attackers are threatening to kill her entire family unless she recants.
Inspired by Mukhtar, these women are standing their ground. They are risking their lives and, in anguish, those of their loved ones to prosecute their attackers. It's a lesson in courage and civics I'll never forget.
"As long as I'm alive, we'll proceed with this case," said Shabana Mai, the mother of the 7-year-old. "Of course, if they cut my head off, there's nothing I can do."
Mukhtar arranges legal assistance for these women, puts them in touch with aid groups, and looks to their other needs. One woman arrived without a nose; cutting off a nose is a traditional Pakistani way of punishing women. Mukhtar has arranged three surgical operations and, above all, the prosecution of the man who did it.
With her faith in the civilizing power of education, Mukhtar also goes door to door and browbeats parents into sending their daughters to her school. "Sometimes I'll make a deal with the parents I tell them, 'You send two of your daughters to my school, and I'll let you keep two others at home,' " she explained.
The school goes up to the fourth grade, though next year it will include fifth grade as well. The academic star is Sidra Nazar, a 9-year-old who ranks first in the fourth grade.
But a month ago, Sidra's parents pulled her out of school. Her clan was in a dispute with another, and to resolve the matter she was offered as a bride to a 20-year-old man in the other clan. Outraged, Mukhtar went to Sidra's parents and raised a stink.
Her meddling infuriated Sidra's parents, but they dropped the marriage plans, and Sidra is back in school. "I want to be a doctor," she told me.
I had the honor of addressing the graduation ceremony for Mukhtar's school. (I didn't get an honorary degree, perhaps because Mukhtar thought I would be offended by being made an honorary fourth grader.) But another commencement speaker, a Pakistani human rights activist named Khalid Aftab Sulehri, said it best: he described Mukhtar as "the mother of the nation."
That's what I find so inspiring about this woman. Hers is as sordid a story of evil and victimization as one could find, and yet by dauntless courage, by the magic of the human spirit she has transformed it into an uplifting vision of hope.
My last two columns recounted the story of Aisha Parveen, a young Pakistani who escaped from the brothel in which she had been imprisoned for six years. The courts were threatening to send her back to the brothel owner, who planned to kill her.
In the last few days, everything has changed. The police have dropped all charges against Ms. Parveen, and instead they have arrested the brothel owner on charges of kidnapping her and attempting to murder her. The Pakistani government is now behind Ms. Parveen and giving her 24-hour police protection, and she's thrilled and thankful for the support from so many readers.
Now for the million other Aisha Parveens around the world. ...
April 2, 2006
Op-Ed Columnist
Mother of a Nation
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
MEERWALA, Pakistan
I don't know whether journalists felt it around the young Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr., but around Mukhtar Mai I sense the presence of greatness.
Mukhtar, who also goes by the name Mukhtaran Bibi, is the young peasant woman she doesn't know exactly how old she is who three years ago was gang-raped on order of a local tribal council. Instead of killing herself, as was expected of any self-respecting woman, she prosecuted her attackers, used compensation money to start schools, and started a nationwide revolution to empower women.
Every day, poor and desperate women and girls with tear-smudged cheeks arrive in this remote and impoverished village, seeking sanctuary. Every night, up to a dozen of them sleep on the floor in Mukhtar's bedroom beside her. (She has given her bed to the principal of the girls' elementary school she started here.)
One visitor is a lovely 7-year-old girl who breaks down in huge, heartbreaking sobs as she tells how the servant of a rich family raped her, and how the rich family then threatened to kill her and her family unless she recanted her accusation.
Then there's Fauzia Bibi, a 30-year-old who was raped and tortured by eight men for two days to punish her family because her uncle supposedly had an affair with a woman from their clan. The attackers are threatening to kill her entire family unless she recants.
Inspired by Mukhtar, these women are standing their ground. They are risking their lives and, in anguish, those of their loved ones to prosecute their attackers. It's a lesson in courage and civics I'll never forget.
"As long as I'm alive, we'll proceed with this case," said Shabana Mai, the mother of the 7-year-old. "Of course, if they cut my head off, there's nothing I can do."
Mukhtar arranges legal assistance for these women, puts them in touch with aid groups, and looks to their other needs. One woman arrived without a nose; cutting off a nose is a traditional Pakistani way of punishing women. Mukhtar has arranged three surgical operations and, above all, the prosecution of the man who did it.
With her faith in the civilizing power of education, Mukhtar also goes door to door and browbeats parents into sending their daughters to her school. "Sometimes I'll make a deal with the parents I tell them, 'You send two of your daughters to my school, and I'll let you keep two others at home,' " she explained.
The school goes up to the fourth grade, though next year it will include fifth grade as well. The academic star is Sidra Nazar, a 9-year-old who ranks first in the fourth grade.
But a month ago, Sidra's parents pulled her out of school. Her clan was in a dispute with another, and to resolve the matter she was offered as a bride to a 20-year-old man in the other clan. Outraged, Mukhtar went to Sidra's parents and raised a stink.
Her meddling infuriated Sidra's parents, but they dropped the marriage plans, and Sidra is back in school. "I want to be a doctor," she told me.
I had the honor of addressing the graduation ceremony for Mukhtar's school. (I didn't get an honorary degree, perhaps because Mukhtar thought I would be offended by being made an honorary fourth grader.) But another commencement speaker, a Pakistani human rights activist named Khalid Aftab Sulehri, said it best: he described Mukhtar as "the mother of the nation."
That's what I find so inspiring about this woman. Hers is as sordid a story of evil and victimization as one could find, and yet by dauntless courage, by the magic of the human spirit she has transformed it into an uplifting vision of hope.
My last two columns recounted the story of Aisha Parveen, a young Pakistani who escaped from the brothel in which she had been imprisoned for six years. The courts were threatening to send her back to the brothel owner, who planned to kill her.
In the last few days, everything has changed. The police have dropped all charges against Ms. Parveen, and instead they have arrested the brothel owner on charges of kidnapping her and attempting to murder her. The Pakistani government is now behind Ms. Parveen and giving her 24-hour police protection, and she's thrilled and thankful for the support from so many readers.
Now for the million other Aisha Parveens around the world. ...
thenight_templer
Member
read the false christ stratgies
DakotaGypsy
Active Member
http://select.nytimes.com/2006/04/04/opinion/04kristof.html
April 4, 2006
Op-Ed Columnist
A Heroine Walking in the Shadow of Death
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
MEERWALA, Pakistan
When I met Mukhtar Mai here two years ago, she was at her wits' end. Her campaign to fight rape and illiteracy had run out of money, and she was selling family possessions to keep her schools operating.
Now so much has changed. Mukhtar, who also goes by the name Mukhtaran Bibi, has become an international celebrity. Her autobiography is the No. 3 best seller in France and is coming out this fall in the U.S., movies are being made about her, and she has been praised by dignitaries like Laura Bush and the French foreign minister.
Pakistan has also provided a paved road, electricity and telephone service to this village, she herself has learned to read in one of her own schools, and her new aid group is flourishing.
Best of all, her campaign is really working: more women seem to be prosecuting rapes and acid attacks, and there's some evidence that such violence is dropping.
But partly because of her success, there's a good chance that Mukhtar will be murdered. "The traditional landowners want me dead," Mukhtar said sadly. "And the government doesn't want me around, either." (You can watch Mukhtar in my video report, "Courage in Pakistan.")
President Pervez Musharraf is a modern man, and I'm sure he is privately repulsed by acid attacks and rapes. In some respects, he's doing a fine job above all, he's presiding over a stunning 8 percent economic growth rate (those socks you're wearing may be manufactured in Pakistan).
But Mr. Musharraf seems to feel that Mukhtar is casting a spotlight on Pakistan's dark side, so he is leading an effort to bully her into silence.
The authorities confiscate Mukhtar's mail and feed vicious propaganda to sympathetic journalists, portraying her as a liar, a cheat and an unpatriotic dupe of India (and of me).
"My life and death is in God's hands," she said. "That doesn't bother me. But why does the government keep treating me as if I were a liar and criminal?"
A top police official has threatened to imprison her for fornication, which would discredit her and remove her from the scene. The charge is ludicrous, for Mukhtar is constantly chaperoned by rape victims who have sought sanctuary here and sleep on the floor beside her each night.
"For the first time, I feel that the government has a plan to deal with me," Mukhtar told me. And that plan, she said, is to kill her or throw her into prison.
Naseem Akhtar, the principal of Mukhtar's elementary school for girls, added, "I want you to know that no matter how we are killed, even if it looks like an accident, it isn't."
The threats have come from high up. Brig. Ijaz Shah, a buddy of President Musharraf's, traveled to Lahore in December to deliver a personal warning. He met Dr. Amna Buttar, an American citizen who has interpreted for Mukhtar in the U.S. and heads a Pakistani-American human rights organization that is supporting her (www.4anaa.org).
According to Dr. Buttar, Mr. Shah started by defending the president's record on women's rights. But then, alluding to a planned visit by Mukhtar to New York, he added: "We can do anything. ... We can just pay a little money to some black guys in New York and get people killed there."
That's right. The racism is the least of it: one of President Musharraf's closest aides was warning that unless Mukhtar piped down, the government of Pakistan might murder her and her American interpreter on the streets of New York. I asked the Pakistani government why it would do that, and Mr. Shah sent me a statement acknowledging that he had met with Dr. Buttar, but he said it had been a social visit and denied that he had threatened to kill anyone. "The allegations to this effect are baseless," he said.
Just for the record, I don't believe him. Mr. Musharraf should fire him at once.
I make a big deal of Mukhtar because if poor nations like Pakistan are to develop, they need to empower women. When a country educates girls, they grow up to have fewer children and look after them better. They take productive jobs. And plenty of studies show that as women gain influence over family budgets, the money is less likely to go for tobacco, soda or alcohol, and more likely to be invested in small businesses and in children's education.
This means that gender equality is not only a matter of simple justice, but also essential for fighting poverty and achieving economic development. If Pakistan is to become a rich and powerful country, it must empower its women and that is what Mukhtar's revolution is all about.
So General Musharraf, back off! Leave Mukhtar alone, and go find Osama.
April 4, 2006
Op-Ed Columnist
A Heroine Walking in the Shadow of Death
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
MEERWALA, Pakistan
When I met Mukhtar Mai here two years ago, she was at her wits' end. Her campaign to fight rape and illiteracy had run out of money, and she was selling family possessions to keep her schools operating.
Now so much has changed. Mukhtar, who also goes by the name Mukhtaran Bibi, has become an international celebrity. Her autobiography is the No. 3 best seller in France and is coming out this fall in the U.S., movies are being made about her, and she has been praised by dignitaries like Laura Bush and the French foreign minister.
Pakistan has also provided a paved road, electricity and telephone service to this village, she herself has learned to read in one of her own schools, and her new aid group is flourishing.
Best of all, her campaign is really working: more women seem to be prosecuting rapes and acid attacks, and there's some evidence that such violence is dropping.
But partly because of her success, there's a good chance that Mukhtar will be murdered. "The traditional landowners want me dead," Mukhtar said sadly. "And the government doesn't want me around, either." (You can watch Mukhtar in my video report, "Courage in Pakistan.")
President Pervez Musharraf is a modern man, and I'm sure he is privately repulsed by acid attacks and rapes. In some respects, he's doing a fine job above all, he's presiding over a stunning 8 percent economic growth rate (those socks you're wearing may be manufactured in Pakistan).
But Mr. Musharraf seems to feel that Mukhtar is casting a spotlight on Pakistan's dark side, so he is leading an effort to bully her into silence.
The authorities confiscate Mukhtar's mail and feed vicious propaganda to sympathetic journalists, portraying her as a liar, a cheat and an unpatriotic dupe of India (and of me).
"My life and death is in God's hands," she said. "That doesn't bother me. But why does the government keep treating me as if I were a liar and criminal?"
A top police official has threatened to imprison her for fornication, which would discredit her and remove her from the scene. The charge is ludicrous, for Mukhtar is constantly chaperoned by rape victims who have sought sanctuary here and sleep on the floor beside her each night.
"For the first time, I feel that the government has a plan to deal with me," Mukhtar told me. And that plan, she said, is to kill her or throw her into prison.
Naseem Akhtar, the principal of Mukhtar's elementary school for girls, added, "I want you to know that no matter how we are killed, even if it looks like an accident, it isn't."
The threats have come from high up. Brig. Ijaz Shah, a buddy of President Musharraf's, traveled to Lahore in December to deliver a personal warning. He met Dr. Amna Buttar, an American citizen who has interpreted for Mukhtar in the U.S. and heads a Pakistani-American human rights organization that is supporting her (www.4anaa.org).
According to Dr. Buttar, Mr. Shah started by defending the president's record on women's rights. But then, alluding to a planned visit by Mukhtar to New York, he added: "We can do anything. ... We can just pay a little money to some black guys in New York and get people killed there."
That's right. The racism is the least of it: one of President Musharraf's closest aides was warning that unless Mukhtar piped down, the government of Pakistan might murder her and her American interpreter on the streets of New York. I asked the Pakistani government why it would do that, and Mr. Shah sent me a statement acknowledging that he had met with Dr. Buttar, but he said it had been a social visit and denied that he had threatened to kill anyone. "The allegations to this effect are baseless," he said.
Just for the record, I don't believe him. Mr. Musharraf should fire him at once.
I make a big deal of Mukhtar because if poor nations like Pakistan are to develop, they need to empower women. When a country educates girls, they grow up to have fewer children and look after them better. They take productive jobs. And plenty of studies show that as women gain influence over family budgets, the money is less likely to go for tobacco, soda or alcohol, and more likely to be invested in small businesses and in children's education.
This means that gender equality is not only a matter of simple justice, but also essential for fighting poverty and achieving economic development. If Pakistan is to become a rich and powerful country, it must empower its women and that is what Mukhtar's revolution is all about.
So General Musharraf, back off! Leave Mukhtar alone, and go find Osama.