Shi'a Muslim and Bahai Only: Meaning of the Seal and the Last

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam Friends,

How did the Infallible Ones, interpreted 'the Seal' and 'the Last', in the following verses and Hadithes:

1. In Quran, God says "I am the First and I am the Last", whereas God has existed from beginning that has no beginning and shall be to end that has no end, so, if being last is taken literally as to be the last one, how can "the Last" be applicable to God?

2. There are a few different sources in which, Ali is mentioned as the Seal of Successors (khtamul-waseen) and Seal of Saints (Khatamul-awliya)


Ali (a.s) said: "Muhammad (saw) is the Seal of all Prophets and I am the Seal of all Successors." Source: Sermon of the Recognition of Noor by Ali (a.s)

And

Ali (a.s) said: “My brother, the messenger of Allah, has said to me: I am the last of a thousand prophets and you are the last of a thousand guardians.". Bihar-alanwar, Report of Abaya Rabi

There are other Hadithes as well, such as in Bihar-alanwar, same title (Seal) is given to Ali.


If, being last or the seal, is to be understood literally to mean, no other successor comes after Ali, then was not Imam Hussein, the Prince of Martyrs, a Perfect successor and greatest of the saints?

3. Jesus in Bible said "I am the first and the last", whereas imam Ali said in Khutbih Noor, "Muhammad is Our First, ....Muhammad is Our Last", He likewise in Khutba Tuttunjiya, said "I am the First, and the Last".
If the Word of Jesus was to be taken literally to mean the Last as No one comes after Him, then why did Allah sent Muhammad, the Seal of Prophets?

4. Similar sayings from Jesus, such as "I am the way, the truth, no one comes to Father except through Me", caused the Christians to believe that no farther revelation or Messenger is to appear after Christ, whereas in Shia Hadithes, it is said the Qaim is the receiver of the Angel and He will say "God Made me a Messenger", So how could the possibility of the Qaim being a Messenger is logically impossible?


Thanks!

 

[Shia Islam]

whereas in Shia Hadithes, it is said the Qaim is the receiver of the Angel and He will say "God Made me a Messenger", So how could the possibility of the Qaim being a Messenger is logically impossible?

This is not true.
Bring what you are talking about.

Also your selective and twisted presentations of the Hadiths will take you no where.

The Hadiths that clearly mentioning that Muhammad (S) is the final messenger and the imams after him are 12, are countless.

Please stick to the scientific thinking, so that others can interact with you scientifically. (think about what i mean by this).

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Hadiths that clearly mentioning that Muhammad (S) is the final messenger and the imams after him are 12, are countless.

Please stick to the scientific thinking, so that others can interact with you scientifically. (think about what i mean by this).

I didn't say Prophet Muhammad is not the Last Messenger. I only asked some questions....sorry my friend, if the questions are difficult.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This is not true.
Bring what you are talking about.

I am talking about the Hadithes that I already posted in this thread:

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/is-qaim-a-messenger-of-god-with-new-book.182575/

 

[mojtaba]

I didn't say Prophet Muhammad is not the Last Messenger. I only asked some questions....sorry my friend, if the questions are difficult.

Dear @InvestigateTruth,
Your questions are not difficalt.
I will reply all of your questions which are in this thread or in other threads in future, Allah willing.

Unfortunately, I am in the time of my university exams, so I am so busy for three weaks.

Please be patient.

Best wishes.

 

[Khudayar]

Narrations -just like the Holy Quran- should be analyzed totally. The context, the condition, the audience, the time of the speeches etc. are all important in understanding the philosophy of those narrations.

In the Holy Quran as well, we can see different Prophets (pbut) saying that "I am the first to believe." But they can't all be the first at the same time, rgiht? So, the context of their sayings are important.

Likewise, the context where Imam Ali says he is the first and last is also important. Imam Ali said it during one of his speeches about the Holy Prophet. And He is the first (man to believe in the Prophethood of Muhammad s.a.a) and the last (man who saw and touched him, as he washed and buried the Prophet himself while others were busy discussing who should succeed the Prophet) etc.

Again the context is important.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Dear @InvestigateTruth,
Your questions are not difficalt.
I will reply all of your questions which are in this thread or in other threads in future, Allah willing.

Unfortunately, I am in the time of my university exams, so I am so busy for three weaks.

Please be patient.

Best wishes.

Good Luck on your exams. When you get some time, could you also translate this saying from Imam Ali:

ومن فرط في فقد فرط في الله ، ولم يجز لنبي نبوة حتى يأخذ خاتما من محمد فلذلك سمي خاتم النبيين ، محمد سيد النبيين وأنا سيد الوصيين

http://lib.eshia.ir/71860/39/347

 

[Ralphg]

Salam Friends,

How did the Infallible Ones, interpreted 'the Seal' and 'the Last', in the following verses and Hadithes:

1. In Quran, God says "I am the First and I am the Last", whereas God has existed from beginning that has no beginning and shall be to end that has no end, so, if being last is taken literally as to be the last one, how can "the Last" be applicable to God? Here God tries to make clear what is uncomprehensible otherwise. So he makes an analogy to literally explain what is in fact symbolic. the First = the beginning that has no beginning. the Last = the end that has no end.

2. Don't know.

3. Jesus in Bible said "I am the first and the last", whereas imam Ali said in Khutbih Noor, "Muhammad is Our First, ....Muhammad is Our Last", He likewise in Khutba Tuttunjiya, said "I am the First, and the Last".
If the Word of Jesus was to be taken literally to mean the Last as No one comes after Him, then why did Allah sent Muhammad, the Seal of Prophets?
Jesus was the ONLY Son of God (so He immediately was 'the First and the Last'). He was not a Prophet. Muhammad was a Prophet (the Last one, the Seal. In my own words; the last one to receive 'a Book', but other 'messengers' - for example the Messiah, ringbearers and guardians - can still come). That's what the Bible says about Jesus. I know that's not excepted by all Muslims. But I gave this subject a lot of thought and this is the only way to give this a logic answer.

4. Similar sayings from Jesus, such as "I am the way, the truth, no one comes to Father except through Me", caused the Christians to believe that no farther revelation or Messenger is to appear after Christ, whereas in Shia Hadithes, it is said the Qaim is the receiver of the Angel and He will say "God Made me a Messenger", So how could the possibility of the Qaim being a Messenger is logically impossible?
I believe there are different kind of 'messengers'. A prophet is a messenger with 'a Book'. A Book with 'holy text', Words from God so to say. There are other types of messengers, like guardians which you've mentioned yourself in point 2. The possibility for a messenger to arrive is still an option imo.

 

[mojtaba]

Salam Friends,

How did the Infallible Ones, interpreted 'the Seal' and 'the Last', in the following verses and Hadithes:

1. In Quran, God says "I am the First and I am the Last", whereas God has existed from beginning that has no beginning and shall be to end that has no end, so, if being last is taken literally as to be the last one, how can "the Last" be applicable to God?

Salam friend.

1.Allah is the first, means all things are from Allah and He is their creator. So there is not a first before Him.

Holy Qur'an [45:13]
He has disposed for you[r benefit] whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth; all is from Him.

2.Allah is the last means all creatures are going towards Him(note this do not means that Allah is in a place, and we are going towards Him, He is indeed in everywhere. My saying has a spiritual context). So there are not a last behind Him(Sobhanahu Wa Ta'ala).

Holy Qur'an [84:6]
O man, indeed you have to surely run towards your Lord, and to meet him.


Imam Sajjad[Ali ibn al-Husayn, peace be upon him] says:
Praise belongs to God,
the First, without a first before Him,
the Last, without a last behind Him.
(Al-Sahifah al-Sajjadiyyah, Supplication 1)

2. There are a few different sources in which, Ali is mentioned as the Seal of Successors (khtamul-waseen) and Seal of Saints (Khatamul-awliya)

Ali (a.s) said: "Muhammad (saw) is the Seal of all Prophets and I am the Seal of all Successors." Source: Sermon of the Recognition of Noor by Ali (a.s)

And

Ali (a.s) said: “My brother, the messenger of Allah, has said to me: I am the last of a thousand prophets and you are the last of a thousand guardians.". Bihar-alanwar, Report of Abaya Rabi

There are other Hadithes as well, such as in Bihar-alanwar, same title (Seal) is given to Ali.

If, being last or the seal, is to be understood literally to mean, no other successor comes after Ali, then was not Imam Hussein, the Prince of Martyrs, a Perfect successor and greatest of the saints?

It should be said that "Wasii" [which its plural is Awsiya(iregular plural form) or Waseen(regular plural form)], does not exactly mean successor. But I will not consider their few difference and then reply to you.

Firstly it Should be said that according to numerous Hadiths from Prophet Muhammad, in both Sunni and Shia authentic sources, there would be 12 successors after Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his pure progeny).

Indeed there are four group Hadiths about your question,
1.As you have mentioned, there are some Hadiths that say that Ali is Khatamul Awsiya( or Waseen ).

2.Some other Hadiths say that Imam Mahdi is Khatamul Awsiya( or Waseen).
Imam Mahdi, ' I am Khatamul Awsia( the seal of the Successors) '.(Kamaluddin by Sheykh Sadugh, pg. 441)

3.There are other Hadiths that say that all 12 Imams are Awsiya(Waseen).
Prophet Muhammad," Imams after me are twelve. The first of them is Ali ibn Abi Talib and the last is al-Qa'im. They are my Successors, and my Awsiya, and my Awliya"(Kifayatul 'Athat, pg. 154/ Kamaluddin, p.g. 259)

4.There are Hadiths that explain those apparently contradicting Hadiths.

A.Those Hadiths that say that Imam Ali is the seal of Awsiy/Waseen(successors), means he is the last Awsiya of Nabiin( i.e., the seal of Successors of Prophets ). In other word, according to our belief, all Prophets had a Wasii, So because there would not be any Prophet after Muhammad, so Ali became the last Successors of Prophets. Indeed, Imam Ali was direct Wasii of Prophet Muhammad and the last one.

B and C. But this does not mean that there would not be another Wasii after Ali. Indeed, the Awsiya/Waseen after Ali, are Wasii of Wasii(i.e., Successor of the previous Successor). For example, Imam Husayn(3th Imam) was the Wasii of the Imam Hasan(2th Imam) who himself was Wasii of Imam Ali(first Imam).
So, those Hadiths that say that Mahdi al-Qa'im is the seal of Awsiya/Waseen, mean Mahdi is the seal of Successors of Successors.
And those Hadiths that say that All Imams are Wasii of Prophet, this is because all of them eventually reach to Prophet Muhammad through the chain of the Wisayah(i.e., Succession).

D. Please read ff Hadith for clarification:
This Hadith has two chains of narrators. Isnad is here.
Ummi Salim has narrated,
I asked form Prophet that who is your Successor? Then he replied:"Whoever can do so and so doing, is my Successor". Then, I went towards Ali and asked from him:'Are you Wasii of Muhammad?' Ali replied:'Yes'. I asked him that what is its sign? Then he did what Prophet mentioned. So I asked him that who is your Successor, O Abal Hasan(Ali)? Then he replied:' Whoever can do such this'. Then I saw al-Hasan ibn Ali and asked him:' Are you Wasii of your father '.... Then I asked him that who is your Successor? He replied ..... Then I saw al-Husayn ibn Ali and said to him that, who are you my master? He reolied:" I am whom you are seeking for. O Ummi Salim, we are Wasii of Awsiya and I am the father of nine [other] guide Imams. And I am Wasii of my brother, Hasan and my brother is Wasii of my father, Ali and Ali is the Wasii of my grandfather, the Messenger of Allah. "
(Source: Bihar al-Anwar, Vol.25, pg. 176 and 187 )

There are other Hadiths such this, but I think this Hadith wich has two Isnads is enough.

3. Jesus in Bible said "I am the first and the last", whereas imam Ali said in Khutbih Noor, "Muhammad is Our First, ....Muhammad is Our Last", He likewise in Khutba Tuttunjiya, said "I am the First, and the Last".
If the Word of Jesus was to be taken literally to mean the Last as No one comes after Him, then why did Allah sent Muhammad, the Seal of Prophets?

1.Imam Ali says in Khutbah Noor, "Our(i.e., Imams) first one is Muhammad, our middld one is Muhammad, our last one is Muhammad, and all of us(Imams) are Muhammad".
This means that the guidance of Muhammad, Ali, Hasan, Husayn untill Mahdi is identical. So there is not any difference between them.
Also it should be said that this Khutbah has not any Isnad. So its Isnad(chain of the narrators) is weak.

2.About the saying of Imam Ali: "I am the First, and the Last" in Khutbah Tutunjiyyah. This Khutbah has not any Isnad(chain of the narrators). So its Isnad is weak.
But if we consider this Hadith correct, here is another Hadith that clarify that,
Imam Ali said to an Arab, "I am the first, and the last". So the Arab marveled. Then Imam said," I am the first, (because) I am the first one who believed in the Messenger of Allah; and I am the last, (because) I am the last one who saw him(Prophet Muhammad) when he was in his grave".
(Source: Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 39, pg. 347)

4. Similar sayings from Jesus, such as "I am the way, the truth, no one comes to Father except through Me", caused the Christians to believe that no farther revelation or Messenger is to appear after Christ, whereas in Shia Hadithes, it is said the Qaim is the receiver of the Angel and He will say "God Made me a Messenger", So how could the possibility of the Qaim being a Messenger is logically impossible?
Thanks!

You have said, "in Shia Hadithes, it is said the Qaim is the receiver of the Angel and He will say 'God Made me a Messenger' "

I proved here that this not true and Qaim(Mahdi) is not a Messenger and he will not say, 'God Made me a Messenger'

I do not know we can believe that the saying of Jesus wich you have mentioned is really his saying or not. Because in Holy Qur'an Allah Ta'ala says that the saying that God is Father and his son is Jesus is not a true saying,

[72:3]Exalted be the majesty of our Lord; He has taken neither any spouse nor son.

Sura Maryam(Mary)[Chapter 19]
They say, ‘The All-beneficent has taken a son!’ (88) You have certainly advanced something hideous! (89) The heavens are about to be rent apart at it, the earth to split open, and the mountains to collapse into bits, (90) that they should ascribe a son to the All-beneficent! (91) It does not behoove the All-beneficent to take a son. (92)

And other verses. Anyway, in every time, there are an infallible perfect human(i.e., guide) that through him and his guidance(what is indeed Allah's guidance) others can come to God. In the time of Jesus, he was that guide and now, that is Imam Mahdi.

Allah says in Holy Qur'an:
[13:7]The faithless say, ‘Why has not some sign been sent down to him from his Lord?’ You are only a warner, and there is a guide for every people.

[5:35]O you who have faith! Be wary of Allah, and seek the means of recourse to Him

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Thank you Mojtaba,

How about this:

سمعت رسول الله يقول : أناخاتم الانبياء وأنت ياعلي خاتم الاولياء.

Source: http://lib.eshia.ir/71860/39/76

I heard the Messenger of God said: I am Seal of the Prophets, and Ali is the Seal of Successors.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

A.Those Hadiths that say that Imam Ali is the seal of Awsiy/Waseen(successors), means he is the last Awsiya of Nabiin( i.e., the seal of Successors of Prophets ). In other word, according to our belief, all Prophets had a Wasii, So because there would not be any Prophet after Muhammad, so Ali became the last Successors of Prophets. Indeed, Imam Ali was direct Wasii of Prophet Muhammad and the last one.

So, you understand that Imam Ali is the Last 'Direct Successor' of a Messenger?
Is this your own personal interpretation, or how the Prophet and Infallible Imams explained it?
How do you know, this is the interpretation that the Prophet intended to say?

Here I found a Hadith that may explain it:

وقال أمير المؤمنين : ختم محمد ألف نبي وإني ختمت ألف وصي وإني كلفت مالم يكلفوا
Source: http://lib.eshia.ir/71860/39/76/

Ali (a.s) said: Muhammad sealed (ended / closed) 1000 prophets, and I sealed (ended / closed) 1000 successors....



I am interested, how the Prophet and the infallible Imams explained what is meant by the Term Khatamul-Awliya or Khatamul-waseen (the seal of successors or whatever they meant).


As Imam Sadiq said, only the infallible Imams are well-grounded in knowledge.


"People well-grounded in Knowledge stands for Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) and the Imams after him." Hadith , Al-Kafi

"If they would ask, "Who are the ones well-grounded in knowledge?" Say, "They are those in whose knowledge there is no disharmony." If they would ask, "Who is he?" Say, "the Messenger of Allah was such a person......" Hadith, Al-Kafi

 

[Ralphg]

Salam Friends,

How did the Infallible Ones, interpreted 'the Seal' and 'the Last', in the following verses and Hadithes:

1. In Quran, God says "I am the First and I am the Last", whereas God has existed from beginning that has no beginning and shall be to end that has no end, so, if being last is taken literally as to be the last one, how can "the Last" be applicable to God? Here God tries to make clear what is uncomprehensible otherwise. So he makes an analogy to literally explain what is in fact symbolic. the First = the beginning that has no beginning. the Last = the end that has no end.

2. Don't know.

3. Jesus in Bible said "I am the first and the last", whereas imam Ali said in Khutbih Noor, "Muhammad is Our First, ....Muhammad is Our Last", He likewise in Khutba Tuttunjiya, said "I am the First, and the Last".
If the Word of Jesus was to be taken literally to mean the Last as No one comes after Him, then why did Allah sent Muhammad, the Seal of Prophets?
Jesus was the ONLY Son of God (so He immediately was 'the First and the Last'). He was not a Prophet. Muhammad was a Prophet (the Last one, the Seal. In my own words; the last one to receive 'a Book', but other 'messengers' - for example the Messiah, ringbearers and guardians - can still come). That's what the Bible says about Jesus. I know that's not excepted by all Muslims. But I gave this subject a lot of thought and this is the only way to give this a logic answer.

4. Similar sayings from Jesus, such as "I am the way, the truth, no one comes to Father except through Me", caused the Christians to believe that no farther revelation or Messenger is to appear after Christ, whereas in Shia Hadithes, it is said the Qaim is the receiver of the Angel and He will say "God Made me a Messenger", So how could the possibility of the Qaim being a Messenger is logically impossible?
I believe there are different kind of 'messengers'. A prophet is a messenger with 'a Book'. A Book with 'holy text', Words from God so to say. There are other types of messengers, like guardians which you've mentioned yourself in point 2. The possibility for a messenger to arrive is still an option imo.

To clarify my presence in this thread. I have done the Shahada about 1 year ago and since then attended the Friday prayer in my Mosque a couple of times. I'm not brought up as a Muslim but I feel I'm Muslim 'enough' to react in this thread. I understand there's a lot questionable about my responses especially in points 3. and 4.
I hope everybody understands these are my personal views, done through personal experiences and observations. It is in no way my intention to belittle or do harm to Muhammad's or Allah's 'position'. I simply try to help to answer the questions in the OP.

- Where I talk about Jesus was the Son of God (in point 3) I do that so to relate to the "I am the first and the last" sentense made in the OP. I do not say that in the traditional way a Christian believer would do. Imo the 'Son of God' is more of a 'title' than a litteral 'being something'.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Narrations -just like the Holy Quran- should be analyzed totally. The context, the condition, the audience, the time of the speeches etc. are all important in understanding the philosophy of those narrations.

In the Holy Quran as well, we can see different Prophets (pbut) saying that "I am the first to believe." But they can't all be the first at the same time, rgiht? So, the context of their sayings are important.

Likewise, the context where Imam Ali says he is the first and last is also important. Imam Ali said it during one of his speeches about the Holy Prophet. And He is the first (man to believe in the Prophethood of Muhammad s.a.a) and the last (man who saw and touched him, as he washed and buried the Prophet himself while others were busy discussing who should succeed the Prophet) etc.

Again the context is important.

Thank you.

You are right, Context is important.

In this context of the following Hadith, what does "Seal of Prophets" and "Seal of Successors" mean:

سمعت رسول الله يقول : أناخاتم الانبياء وأنت ياعلي خاتم الاولياء.

Source: http://lib.eshia.ir/71860/39/76

I heard the Messenger of God said: I am Seal of the Prophets, and Ali is the Seal of Successors.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

1.Imam Ali says in Khutbah Noor, "Our(i.e., Imams) first one is Muhammad, our middld one is Muhammad, our last one is Muhammad, and all of us(Imams) are Muhammad".
This means that the guidance of Muhammad, Ali, Hasan, Husayn untill Mahdi is identical. So there is not any difference between them.
Also it should be said that this Khutbah has not any Isnad. So its Isnad(chain of the narrators) is weak.

...the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.s.) says:

“..... “I am the first of this Ummah, Mahdi is the middle of it, and Isa is the last of it. And in between there is a crooked old man.”

Source: http://www.shiavault.com/books/the-promised-mahdi-part-one/chapters/8-6

What does it mean Muhammad is the first of Ummah, Mahdi the middle, and Isa the last of it?

 

[mojtaba]

Thank you Mojtaba,

How about this:

سمعت رسول الله يقول : أناخاتم الانبياء وأنت ياعلي خاتم الاولياء.

Source: http://lib.eshia.ir/71860/39/76

I heard the Messenger of God said: I am Seal of the Prophets, and Ali is the Seal of Successors.

So, you understand that Imam Ali is the Last 'Direct Successor' of a Messenger?
Is this your own personal interpretation, or how the Prophet and Infallible Imams explained it?
How do you know, this is the interpretation that the Prophet intended to say?

Here I found a Hadith that may explain it:

وقال أمير المؤمنين : ختم محمد ألف نبي وإني ختمت ألف وصي وإني كلفت مالم يكلفوا
Source: http://lib.eshia.ir/71860/39/76/

Ali (a.s) said: Muhammad sealed (ended / closed) 1000 prophets, and I sealed (ended / closed) 1000 successors....



I am interested, how the Prophet and the infallible Imams explained what is meant by the Term Khatamul-Awliya or Khatamul-waseen (the seal of successors or whatever they meant).


As Imam Sadiq said, only the infallible Imams are well-grounded in knowledge.


"People well-grounded in Knowledge stands for Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) and the Imams after him." Hadith , Al-Kafi

"If they would ask, "Who are the ones well-grounded in knowledge?" Say, "They are those in whose knowledge there is no disharmony." If they would ask, "Who is he?" Say, "the Messenger of Allah was such a person......" Hadith, Al-Kafi

Dear @InvestigateTruth;
I have replied to this question. Why do you again ask your question?

Read the post #9.

Please read my answer which is in post #9 more accurately. As I mentioned previously, Imams themselves have said that exept Imam Ali who was the direct Successor of Muhammad and the last direct Successors of the Prophets, other Imams are Successors of the previous Successor and also indirect Successor of Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his pure progeny).

Imam Husayn has said: "O Ummi Salim, we are Wasii of Awsiya(Successor of the Successors) and I am the father of nine [other] guide Imams. And I am Successor of my brother, Hasan, and my brother is Successor of my father, Ali, and Ali is the Successor of my grandfather, the Messenger of Allah."

If you see all Hadiths which say that Imam Ali is the Seal of Successors, exactly the Hadiths say that Muhammad is the Seal of Prophets(I am Seal of the Prophets, and Ali is the Seal of Successors). So because Muhammad was the seal of the Prophets, his Successor, Imam Ali, became the seal of the Successors of the Prophets. But because Imam Ali has also a Successor and likewise this Successor has another Successor untill the 12th Successor, i.e., Imam Mahdi who is the Seal of Successors of the Successors, so other Imams are Successors of the previous Successor and also indirect Successor of Prophet Muhammad, because through the chain of the Succession, they eventualy reach to Prophet Muhammad.

 

[mojtaba]

So, you understand that Imam Ali is the Last 'Direct Successor' of a Messenger?
Is this your own personal interpretation, or how the Prophet and Infallible Imams explained it?
How do you know, this is the interpretation that the Prophet intended to say?

Here I found a Hadith that may explain it:

وقال أمير المؤمنين : ختم محمد ألف نبي وإني ختمت ألف وصي وإني كلفت مالم يكلفوا
Source: http://lib.eshia.ir/71860/39/76/

Ali (a.s) said: Muhammad sealed (ended / closed) 1000 prophets, and I sealed (ended / closed) 1000 successors....



I am interested, how the Prophet and the infallible Imams explained what is meant by the Term Khatamul-Awliya or Khatamul-waseen (the seal of successors or whatever they meant).


As Imam Sadiq said, only the infallible Imams are well-grounded in knowledge.


"People well-grounded in Knowledge stands for Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) and the Imams after him." Hadith , Al-Kafi

"If they would ask, "Who are the ones well-grounded in knowledge?" Say, "They are those in whose knowledge there is no disharmony." If they would ask, "Who is he?" Say, "the Messenger of Allah was such a person......" Hadith, Al-Kafi

Good Luck on your exams. When you get some time, could you also translate this saying from Imam Ali:

ومن فرط في فقد فرط في الله ، ولم يجز لنبي نبوة حتى يأخذ خاتما من محمد فلذلك سمي خاتم النبيين ، محمد سيد النبيين وأنا سيد الوصيين

http://lib.eshia.ir/71860/39/347

According to Hadiths from infallible Imams, Prophet Muhammad has been named 'the Seal of Prophets' for two reasons,

1.Through the sending of Muhammad and Qur'an, the sending of Prophets and Books and Laws ended, so there would not be another Prophet after him.
A.Imam Sadiq has said:"السلام على محمد بن عبدالله خاتم النبيين لانبي بعده"
Peace be upon Muhammad ibn Abdillah(Prophet Muhammad), the Seal of Prophets,(i.e.,) there would not be a Prophet after him.(source)
-Allamah Majlesi says in his book, Bihar al-Anwar, that the chain of the narrators of this Hadith is reliable.(see the source)

B.Imam Ridha(the 8th Imam) has said, (see the chain of the narrators in the source)
"وأن محمدا عبده ورسوله وأمينه وصفيه وصفوته من خلقه وسيد المرسلين وخاتم النبيين وأفضل العالمين لانبي بعده ولا تبديل لملته ولا تغيير لشريعته"
Muhammad is His servant and His Messenger and .... and (Muhammad is) the Master of the Messengers, the Seal of Prophets and the best of the creatures, there will not be any prophet after him, and there will not be an alteration in his(Muhammad) Religion(Islam) and there will not be an alteration in his Shari'ah(Islamic Laws).
(Source: 'Uyoon al-Akhbar al-Ridha by Sheykh Saduq, vol. 1, pg. 129)

2.He( Actually, the spirit of Prophet Muhammad that was created before the creation of this world ) was who has given the permission of Prophecy to other Prophets with Allah's leave,
This is the Hadith that you have mentioned: "ولم يجز لنبي نبوة حتى يأخذ خاتما من محمد فلذلك سمي خاتم النبيين ، محمد سيد النبيين وأنا سيد الوصيين"
Imam Ali has said, "The permission of Prophecy was not given to a Prophet untill he recieves a permission from Muhammad, so that he has named the Seal of Prophets. Muhammad is the Master of the Prophets and I am the Master of the Successors."

It should be said that this Hadith has not any Isnad(chain of the narrators). So its Isnad is weak.

Anyway, According to Hadiths, the saying "Prophet Muhammad is Khatamun-Nabeen(the Seal of Prophets)" means, he is the last Prophet that there will not be another Prophet and Shari'ah(Religious Laws) after him.
As well, Because he is 'the Master of the Prophets'(see Hadith of Imam Ali) and 'the last one and also the best of the creaturs'(see Hadith of Imam Ridha), so he became who was giving the permission of Prophesy to other Prophets with Allah's leave, so that he was named the Khatamun-Nabeen(the Seal of the Prophets).

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I have replied to this question. Why do you again ask your question?

Read the post #9.

.

Thank you!.
The reason I asked again was, in your post #9, you replied regarding Khatamul Waseen or Awsiya. But I also asked about Khatamul Awliya. Do you believe Awsia and Awliya are interchangeable words?.....Anyways, I understood your belief regarding all these.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

According to Hadiths from infallible Imams, Prophet Muhammad has been named 'the Seal of Prophets' for two reasons,

1.Through the sending of Muhammad and Qur'an, the sending of Prophets and Books and Laws ended, so there would not be another Prophet after him.
A.Imam Sadiq has said:"السلام على محمد بن عبدالله خاتم النبيين لانبي بعده"
Peace be upon Muhammad ibn Abdillah(Prophet Muhammad), the Seal of Prophets,(i.e.,) there would not be a Prophet after him.(source)
-Allamah Majlesi says in his book, Bihar al-Anwar, that the chain of the narrators of this Hadith is reliable.(see the source)

B.Imam Ridha(the 8th Imam) has said, (see the chain of the narrators in the source)
"وأن محمدا عبده ورسوله وأمينه وصفيه وصفوته من خلقه وسيد المرسلين وخاتم النبيين وأفضل العالمين لانبي بعده ولا تبديل لملته ولا تغيير لشريعته"
Muhammad is His servant and His Messenger and .... and (Muhammad is) the Master of the Messengers, the Seal of Prophets and the best of the creatures, there will not be any prophet after him, and there will not be an alteration in his(Muhammad) Religion(Islam) and there will not be an alteration in his Shari'ah(Islamic Laws).
(Source: 'Uyoon al-Akhbar al-Ridha by Sheykh Saduq, vol. 1, pg. 129)

2.He( Actually, the spirit of Prophet Muhammad that was created before the creation of this world ) was who has given the permission of Prophecy to other Prophets with Allah's leave,
This is the Hadith that you have mentioned: "ولم يجز لنبي نبوة حتى يأخذ خاتما من محمد فلذلك سمي خاتم النبيين ، محمد سيد النبيين وأنا سيد الوصيين"
Imam Ali has said, "The permission of Prophecy was not given to a Prophet untill he recieves a permission from Muhammad, so that he has named the Seal of Prophets. Muhammad is the Master of the Prophets and I am the Master of the Successors."

It should be said that this Hadith has not any Isnad(chain of the narrators). So its Isnad is weak.

Anyway, According to Hadiths, the saying "Prophet Muhammad is Khatamun-Nabeen(the Seal of Prophets)" means, he is the last Prophet that there will not be another Prophet and Shari'ah(Religious Laws) after him.
As well, Because he is 'the Master of the Prophets'(see Hadith of Imam Ali) and 'the last one and also the best of the creaturs'(see Hadith of Imam Ridha), so he became who was giving the permission of Prophesy to other Prophets with Allah's leave, so that he was named the Khatamun-Nabeen(the Seal of the Prophets).

All you have said is true with regards to Hadithes, and possible interpretation of the Seal of Successors or Seal of Prophets.
However, it can be seen, that these Hadithes are not that easy and straight forward. The Infallible Imams had said several times, that 'Our Hadithes are difficult"

abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following. "Our Hadith (statements) are difficult and they become difficult. Only well lighted chests, the well protected of virtuous moral abilities are capable to accept them." Allah has taken a pledge from our Shi‘a (followers) just as He has taken such pledge from the children of Adam (Am I not Your Lord?" Whoever would remain loyal to us Allah will grant then paradise. Whoever would dislike us and would not deliver our rights to us they will live in fire forever."

2.He( Actually, the spirit of Prophet Muhammad that was created before the creation of this world ) was who has given the permission of Prophecy to other Prophets with Allah's leave,
This is the Hadith that you have mentioned: "ولم يجز لنبي نبوة حتى يأخذ خاتما من محمد فلذلك سمي خاتم النبيين ، محمد سيد النبيين وأنا سيد الوصيين"
Imam Ali has said, "The permission of Prophecy was not given to a Prophet untill he recieves a permission from Muhammad, so that he has named the Seal of Prophets. Muhammad is the Master of the Prophets and I am the Master of the Successors."

Thank you for translation. The only thing I have noticed is you have translated 'Khatam' (خاتما) as 'permission'. This is possible interpretation, and no objection there:

Imam Ali has said, "The permission of Prophecy was not given to a Prophet untill he receives a Khatam (خاتما) from Muhammad, so that he has named the Seal of Prophets. Muhammad is the Master of the Prophets and I am the Master of the Successors.

So, according to this Hadith, all Prophets received Khatam from Muhammad, and that is the reason Muhammad was called Seal of Prophets. The belief of the Pre-existence of Muhammad is also seen in many other Hadithes. Such as the one that says, Muhammad was a Light, that God created before Adam, and similar other Hadithes. However, do you believe such hadithes should be taken literally, or the could have a hidden meaning?

 

[mojtaba]

Thank you!.
The reason I asked again was, in your post #9, you replied regarding Khatamul Waseen or Awsiya. But I also asked about Khatamul Awliya. Do you believe Awsia and Awliya are interchangeable words?.....Anyways, I understood your belief regarding all these.

Your welcome!
َ
What I said about Awsiya is also the answer to this question.

All you have said is true with regards to Hadithes, and possible interpretation of the Seal of Successors or Seal of Prophets.
However, it can be seen, that these Hadithes are not that easy and straight forward. The Infallible Imams had said several times, that 'Our Hadithes are difficult"

abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following. "Our Hadith (statements) are difficult and they become difficult. Only well lighted chests, the well protected of virtuous moral abilities are capable to accept them." Allah has taken a pledge from our Shi‘a (followers) just as He has taken such pledge from the children of Adam (Am I not Your Lord?" Whoever would remain loyal to us Allah will grant then paradise. Whoever would dislike us and would not deliver our rights to us they will live in fire forever."

Thank you for translation. The only thing I have noticed is you have translated 'Khatam' (خاتما) as 'permission'. This is possible interpretation, and no objection there:

Imam Ali has said, "The permission of Prophecy was not given to a Prophet untill he receives a Khatam (خاتما) from Muhammad, so that he has been named the Seal of Prophets. Muhammad is the Master of the Prophets and I am the Master of the Successors.

So, according to this Hadith, all Prophets received Khatam from Muhammad, and that is the reason Muhammad was called Seal of Prophets. The belief of the Pre-existence of Muhammad is also seen in many other Hadithes. Such as the one that says, Muhammad was a Light, that God created before Adam, and similar other Hadithes. However, do you believe such hadithes should be taken literally, or the could have a hidden meaning?

No. Those Hadiths that say that there would not be another Prophet, Book or Religion after Muhammad are not difficult. Hadiths that say that there would not be another Book or Prophet or Messenger after Muhammad are countless and are not metaphorical.

But about the meaning of Khatam. In Arabic, "Khatam" means seal or stamp. So according to the saying of Imam Ali, one of the reasons that Muhammad has been named Khatam al-Nabeen is this that, he(his light existence which was before this world) stamped on the Document of Prophecy of other Prophets. So he gave the permission of Prophesy to other Prophets with Allah's leave, so that he is named Khatamul al-Nabeen.(I believe that this Hadith has an spiritual meaning and this does not means that prophet stamped a page that was created from wood. Imam Ali has explained a spiritual event by a sensible example)
But this is about the light existence of Prophet Mummad, which was before the creation of this world. But after the creation, Prophet Muhammad sealed the Prophecy itself, so that he has been named Khatam al-Nabeen.

Indeed, the Hadith of Imam Ali(which indeed has not any chain of narrators) is about light existence of Prophet Muhammad which was created before the creation of the heavens and the earth. But, other Hadiths that say that Khatam al-Nabeen means, there would not be another Prophet, Book and religion after Muhammad, are about the existence of Muhammad in this world.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salaam Mojtaba,

I give a conclusion in the following paragraph, and my question is Do you think this conclusion that I make from the discussions so far is Fair:


So, in Hadithes we see, Ali is called Seal of Successors and Saints (Awliya and Waseen).
On the other hand, we know that, other Hadithes states that there are 12 Imams and each one is a Walee and Wassi (successor and saint).
So, a fair question would be, if seal means last, then how can Ali being Seal of Successors be 'Reconciled' with the Hadithes that says there are 11 successors and saints after Ali?

If we search, we probably do not find any recorded Tradition, that anybody had asked this question directly from the Infallible Imams, hence, there is no explicit Authentic Hadith that gives a direct response and explanation to this question specifically.

However, based on your understanding of Hadithes, you gave the following explanation:

A.Those Hadiths that say that Imam Ali is the seal of Awsiy/Waseen(successors), means he is the last Awsiya of Nabiin( i.e., the seal of Successors of Prophets ). In other word, according to our belief, all Prophets had a Wasii, So because there would not be any Prophet after Muhammad, so Ali became the last Successors of Prophets. Indeed, Imam Ali was direct Wasii of Prophet Muhammad and the last one.

I personally think you are a smart person. While your explanation certainly is possible.....however:

Our explanation and reasoning generally and ultimately depends on our own understanding and our conclusions from other hadithes or verses, and because, no matter how smart we are, we are not infallible Imams or Prophet appointed by God, hence it is always possible that our conclusions be somewhat incorrect, specially because the words of Imams and God are difficult and they could have another interpretation. Is this a fair statement?


Now, suppose a person had asked this same question from an infallible Imam. Can you guarantee, the Imam would have given exact same reason and explanation as you are giving? Or you believe it is possible that the infallible Imam could have given an explanation better than yours, or possibly even a totally different answer? Do you think my question is a fair and valid question?