Shia Muslims only: The validity of Hadithes

[Union]

There are many places where I've not visited, and will probably never do.

How do I make sure that e.g. Tokyo exists? I surely haven't eyewitnessed it, and still I'd swear on a stack of bibles that Tokyo is not a dream.

This is how we count on narrations.

Tokyo is existing in the face of the earth though you do not witnessed . What about this example , I say , ' My grandfather invented a time machine which was kept in his back yard. ' . Somebody asked ' Where is it now ?' I answered , ' No! It is written in my Dad's diary .' .

Does it it really prove that my Grandfather really invented the time machine only because my father wrote it in his diary ?

 

[Union]

The chain of scribes is available and all of them are well-known.

Any preserved manuscript on that ?

 

[Hendrick Laursen]

What about many thousand people claiming twas Edison who invented the electric bulb?

In fact we must absorb information from past, otherwise "collective learning" as shrinks say would be meaningless ie everyone will solely know what he experiences.

We are to accept info from past, our intellectual heritage and there's no one debating it. We're discussing whose narrative shall we trust and whose not.

 

[mojtaba]

Tokyo is existing in the face of the earth though you do not witnessed . What about this example , I say , ' My grandfather invented a time machine which was kept in his back yard. ' . Somebody asked ' Where is it now ?' I answered , ' No! It is written in my Dad's diary .' .

Does it it really prove that my Grandfather really invented the time machine only because my father wrote it in his diary ?

If you are sure that your father and grandfather are not liar and they are well-known as honest, you should accept what is in the diary of your father.

Any way, your example is not good. Your example is about what is now a dream,i.e. time machine.
But Hadiths are not like this.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

What about many thousand people claiming twas Edison who invented the electric bulb?

In fact we must absorb information from past, otherwise "collective learning" as shrinks say would be meaningless ie everyone will solely know what he experiences.

We are to accept info from past, our intellectual heritage and there's no one debating it. We're discussing whose narrative shall we trust and whose not.

Tokyo is existing in the face of the earth though you do not witnessed . What about this example , I say , ' My grandfather invented a time machine which was kept in his back yard. ' . Somebody asked ' Where is it now ?' I answered , ' No! It is written in my Dad's diary .' .

Does it it really prove that my Grandfather really invented the time machine only because my father wrote it in his diary ?

As I said in my last post: Shia traditions "are rigorously scrutinized for veracity using all sorts of methods." It's not like we find a hadith on a piece of paper and accept it as fact without rigorous investigation.

 

[Union]

If you are sure that your father and grandfather are not liar and they are well-known that they are honest, you should accept what is in the diary of your father.

Any way, your example is not good. Your example is about what is now a dream,i.e. time machine.
But Hadiths are not like this.

Honesty is a relative quality in the ilm of Hadith . To Sunni Abu Huaraira was the most trustworthy narrator while to Shia , he was an impostor . Though Sunni comprise 90% of Muslim body but who do really care . Shia think they are right . Nobody is GOD , hence honesty can never be judged with certainty .

Yah , the example may not be a pleasant one but convey the analogy that Imam Ali wrote a book of Hadith from Prophet which is written by Mr.X 300 years latter in his book but the alleged book of Ali never exist in the face of the earth .

 

[mojtaba]

Honesty is a relative quality in the ilm of Hadith . To Sunni Abu Huaraira was the most trustworthy narrator while to Shia , he was an impostor . Though Sunni comprise 90% of Muslim body but who do really care . Shia think they are right . Nobody is GOD , hence honesty can never be judged with certainty .

This is because our Sunni brothers believe that all Sahaba[companions] are righteous. But we as Shia do not believe in this. According to two so authentic Hadiths of Prophet which are in both Sunni and Shia authentic books,i.e. Hadith al-Thaqalayn and Hadith Kisa, only Ahlul Bayt are infallible.

Yah , the example may not be a pleasant one but convey the analogy that Imam Ali wrote a book of Hadith from Prophet which is written by Mr.X 300 years latter in his book but the alleged book of Ali never exist in the face of the earth .

Talk about real examples, please.

 

[Union]

As I said in my last post: Shia traditions "are rigorously scrutinized for veracity using all sorts of methods." It's not like we find a hadith on a piece of paper and accept it as fact without rigorous investigation.

You need to find that piece of paper and then scrutinize it and then accept it . If you do not have that hadith in paper at all , what are you scrutinizing ?

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

You need to find that piece of paper and then scrutinize it and then accept it . If you do not have that hadith in paper at all , what are you scrutinizing ?

Like all historical evidence, if there is no evidence then there is nothing to scrutinize. I don't know what your point is.

 

[Union]

This is because our Sunni brothers believe that all Sahaba[companions] are righteous. But we as Shia do not believe in this. According to two so authentic Hadiths of Prophet which are in both Sunni and Shia authentic books,i.e. Hadith al-Thaqalayn and Hadith Kisa, only Ahlul Bayt are infallible.

Talk about real examples, please.

Sunni (90% of Muslim body) never believe in 12 Aimah to be infallible nor it is in their doctrine at all .
But it doesn't matter much logically if you can bring any proof that Ali . Hassan and/or Hussain being the primary witness of Prophet recorded Hadith from him and left for the latter generations intact .

 

[Union]

Like all historical evidence, if there is no evidence then there is nothing to scrutinize. I don't know what your point is.

Okay let us lead by example . Please give us a name of a book written and preserved from Imam Ali and/or Hassan and/or Hussain . Let us take it from there . Thanks .

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Okay let us lead by example . Please give us a name of a book written and preserved from Imam Ali and/or Hassan and/or Hussain . Let us take it from there . Thanks .

They didn't write books themselves

 

[Union]

They didn't write books themselves

That seems contradictory :

"The transcript of the Qur’an that Imam ‘Ali wrote contained commentary and hermeneutic interpretation (Tafsir and Ta’wil) from the Holy Prophet some of which had been sent down as revelation but not as a part of the text of Qur’an. A small amount of such texts can be found in some traditions in Usul al-Kafi and else. These pieces of information were Divine commentary of the text of Qur’an which was revealed along with Qur’anic verses but were NOT parts of Qur’an"+

http://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/belief-shia-in-completeness-quran

 

[muhammad_isa]

This is because our Sunni brothers believe that all Sahaba[companions] are righteous. But we as Shia do not believe in this.

How sad .. Almighty God knows best who will be saved from the fire.
Pity we aren't allowed to commit suicide, because if we were, I would have done it long ago.
I find the violence between mankind very depressing .. particularly muslim fighting muslim.

Oh well .. Allah knows best.

UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

That seems contradictory :

"The transcript of the Qur’an that Imam ‘Ali wrote contained commentary and hermeneutic interpretation (Tafsir and Ta’wil) from the Holy Prophet some of which had been sent down as revelation but not as a part of the text of Qur’an. A small amount of such texts can be found in some traditions in Usul al-Kafi and else. These pieces of information were Divine commentary of the text of Qur’an which was revealed along with Qur’anic verses but were NOT parts of Qur’an"+

http://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/belief-shia-in-completeness-quran

Except for that which was never in public hands.

 

[mojtaba]

Sunni (90% of Muslim body) never believe in 12 Aimah to be infallible nor it is in their doctrine at all .

You can not find a Shia scholar who has converted to the Sunni faith. But rather, there are very sunni scholars who have converted to the Shia faith. For example, Then I was Guided.

But it doesn't matter much logically if you can bring any proof that Ali . Hassan and/or Hussain being the primary witness of Prophet recorded Hadith from him and left for the latter generations intact .

I did not say that all Sahaba(RA) are not righteous. I said, we do not believe that all Sahaba were righteous. So the Hadiths of Prophet which have been narrated from reliable Sahaba(RA) and also have the Sahih[authentic] chain of the narrators, are the saying of Prophet.

Also, the Hadiths of all 12 Imams are indeed the Hadiths of Prophet Muhammad. There are so authentic Hadiths in both Sunni and Shia books in which Prophet has said that there are 12 Imams/Successors after him. So the Hadiths of all 12 Successors of Prophet are indeed the sayings of Prophet, and most of the Hadiths of Imams were directly recorded down when the Imams uttered them, these were then copied by trustworthy scribes one after the other until they reached us and the chain of scribes is available and all of them are well-known. The authors of the authentic books like al-Kafi have narrated in their books from these Scriptures.

 

[mojtaba]

How sad .. Almighty God knows best who will be saved from the fire.
Pity we aren't allowed to commit suicide, because if we were, I would have done it long ago.
I find the violence between mankind very depressing .. particularly muslim fighting muslim.

Oh well .. Allah knows best.

UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL

My dear brother, we love Sahaba, those who did not have any enmity with Ahlul Bayt of our Prophet, Dua of Imam Sajjad for Sahaba & Tabi'in

We do not like those minority of Shias(?) who curse the 3 Caliphs of Sunnis, while we need the Islamic unity. And also I am sure that you do not like those Sunnis(?) who believe that Shias are Mushrik and Kafir. Unity between Muslims is now the most important thing for us.

 

[mojtaba]

That seems contradictory :

"The transcript of the Qur’an that Imam ‘Ali wrote contained commentary and hermeneutic interpretation (Tafsir and Ta’wil) from the Holy Prophet some of which had been sent down as revelation but not as a part of the text of Qur’an. A small amount of such texts can be found in some traditions in Usul al-Kafi and else. These pieces of information were Divine commentary of the text of Qur’an which was revealed along with Qur’anic verses but were NOT parts of Qur’an"+

http://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/belief-shia-in-completeness-quran

This book[Mus-haf of Ali] is with Imam Mahdi. Read this post of mine which is in another thread, Rejection of Qaim

 

[Union]

You can not find a Shia scholar who has converted to the Sunni faith. But rather, there are very sunni scholars who have converted to the Shia faith. For example, Then I was Guided.



I did not mean that all Sahaba(RA) were not righteous. I said, we do not believe that all Sahaba were righteous. So the Hadiths of Prophet which have been narrated from reliable Sahaba(RA) and also have the Sahih[authentic] chain of the narrators, are the saying of Prophet.

Also, the Hadiths of all 12 Imams are indeed the Hadiths of Prophet Muhammad. There are so authentic Hadiths in both Sunni and Shia books in which Prophet has said that there are 12 Imams/Successors after him. So the Hadiths of all 12 Successors of Prophet are indeed the sayings of Prophet, and most of the Hadiths of Imams were directly recorded down when the Imams uttered them, these were then copied by trustworthy scribes one after the other until they reached us and the chain of scribes is available and all of them are well-known. The authors of the authentic books like al-Kafi have narrated in their books from these Scriptures.

It really didn't answer my inquiry :

bring any proof that Ali . Hassan and/or Hussain being the primary witness of Prophet recorded Hadith from him and left for the latter generations intact .

 

[Union]

Except for that which was never in public hands.

Elaborate please !