Shia Qaim vs Shia Clergy

[InvestigateTruth]

I do not see this two Hadiths in Shia books.
Rather, I found an authentic Hadith in which Imam Sadiq said that before Qaim, would rise up 12 men who are out of Baní-Háshim[ i.e., fake qaims ].

الحسن بن علي الوشاء، عن أحمد بن عائذ، عن أبي خديجة، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: " لا يخرج القائم حتى يخرج قبله اثنا عشر من بني هاشم كلهم يدعو إلى نفسه​

Abi Khadija narrated,
Imam Sadiq(pbuh) said, ' Qaim will not rise up till 12 men, who are out of Baní-Háshim would rise up before him. All of them[ 12 fake qaims ] would summon the people unto themselves. '

Sources,
Bihar Al-Anwar by Allama Majlisi, V.52, P.209
Al-Irshad by Sheykh al-Mofid, V.2, P.372
etc.

Bab was certainly one of those 12 men.

Your logic is similar to how Christians reason. They say, Jesus has warned us, against false prophets, saying 'beware of the false prophets', and they use it to deny Muhammad. In Shia Hadithes there are many Hadithes that when Qaim comes, Shia fail to recognize Him. The Bab fulfilled all the Prophecies that were described in Authentic Hadithes of Prophet, Imams and verses of Quran.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

(Shia Muslims and Baha'is only)

This is my summary regarding Recorded Shia Traditions about Qaim, in Bihar-alanwar, and other major Shia Books, versus what I have seen from mainstream Shia Clergy opinions on the subject of Qaim.


1. There are Recorded Traditions that describes when Imam Qaim rises, He says "God made Me a Messenger". There are many Shia Traditions that the Qaim comes with a new Book, new command, new Law and new covenant whereas, the mainstream Shia Clergy, rejects all these, and instead describes Qaim as just an Imam, who comes to conquer the world to establish Shia Islam:

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...qaim-a-messenger-of-god-with-new-book.182575/

2. The Recorded Traditions describes that, Qaim does not have a Worldly kingdom, and He does not uses weapons as through a guidance from a God, using weapons would be forbidden. His Sword has a power to speak, (similar to Jesus whose sword was His Words), and His proof is Revelations from Angel Jibraeel. When He rises, He would become imprisoned, cursed by people of east and west and His followers would be killed by Persians. His kingdom is Imamat and Messengership, and last only for 7 years, and in His time most people disbelieve in Him, whereas Mainstream Shia Clergy describes Qaim, as a Worldly Ruler, who comes to conquers the World, uses weapons, and in His lifetime, all people become Shia Muslims and the World become united:

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/shia-muslim-and-bahai-only-kingdom-of-qaim-and-jesus.184380/

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/shia-muslim-and-bahai-only-the-proof-of-qaim.183890/

3. Many of the Recorded Traditions, explains 'explicitly' that, Day of Resurrection, is the Day that Qaim rises, to brings guidance by which the Dead (unbelievers) is raised to life in a spiritual sense. Whereas mainstream Shia rejects such Hadithes from infallible Imams and instead, they describe Day of Resurrection as a Day, that the Dead physically is resurrected:

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...urrection-of-dead-and-day-of-judgment.182350/


4. The Recorded Traditions describe that Muhammad is the Last Prophet until Day of Resurrection, which is the Day of rise of Qaim. Whereas mainstream Shia clergy, rejects this belief, and instead insists that Muahmmad is the final Messenger and Quran is the final Book for ever:

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...only-meaning-of-the-seal-and-the-last.182576/


5. Shia Traditions describes Qaim, as spiritual return of all previous Imams and Messengers, but mainstream shia Clergy rejects such traditions, and considers them false.

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...-of-prophets-and-imams-do-you-believe.182147/


6. There are many Shia Traditions, that when Qaim rises, even the Shias who considered thesemves as His follwers, reject and deny Him.

My conclusion is that the reasons for the rejection of Qaim, is due to misunderstandings regarding the above 5 points.

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/shia-muslim-and-bahai-only-the-qaim-the-mahdi.182050/
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/shia-muslim-and-bahai-only-rejection-of-qaim.183884/

are you familiar with Malachi?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Thank you. You, yourself have rejected yourself.
You said in the first part that according to a Hadith, Qaim would be born in the last day( which its correct translation is the end of time ). While, you next brought in the second part that Qaim will rise up in the last day( correctly, the end of time )[إلى اخر الزمان عند خروج المهدي]. You also said that the end of the time is when True Religion is disapeared!!! This is a clear contradiction!

According to the Hadiths, Islamic Ummah(nation) is the last and final nation( See, Shia Muslim - Baha'I: Period of Muslims, posts #2 and #5 ), so that the time of Islam is indeed the end of times and because the time of the birth of Qaim and also the time of his rising are both in Islamic time and also they are so far from the begining of the time of Islam, they both were called the end of time in the Hadiths.

Good luck!

Dear Mojtaba, You misunderstood. There is no Contradition. The Last Day, is not literally the final Day on earth. The Imams already interpreted that to mean, the Day the true religion disappears. That is when Qaim rises to establish the Religion again.
Your idea that People of Islam are the Last people, has no witness from Quran, thus is not acceptable. But my witness is Quran and Hadithes of Muhammad. In Quran it is said, Muslims are a Middle People, and Every people have an End, and in Hadithes from Prophet, it is said Period of Muslims is 1000 years. My witness again is Quran, as it says, God makes the affair from Heaven to earth, then it returns up to Himself in 1000 years. So, all I say, have supports from Quran and Hadithes of Muhammad, but what you say, has no witness.

Good luck.

 

[mojtaba]

Firstly the belief that Mahdi is in city of Jabiqa, is from the sayings of Imams, and you can find many references regarding this from Shia Sources. But when it was believed Imam is in Jabilqa, that was related to the time Before He rises.
That is why, many of the Shias used to claim they had been in that city and had seen the Imam. But such belief must have been interpreted symbolically, as the Imams had said in their Hadithes there are Mutishabihat too. Since there is no such city literally found, it is Mutishabihat. But many had followed such hadithes literally, thus were mislead.

As regards to Hadithes that the Qaim will appear in Mecca and Medina, these are after His rising, not before. Just read the Hadithes carefully, you will see.

There is not any Hadith which says Imam Mahdi Al-Qaim is in Jabilqa.
Instead, as I brought an authentic Hadith, Imam Hasan Al-Askari said to one of his companions that he can find Imam Mahdi in Medina, not Jabilqa.

 

[mojtaba]

Dear Mojtaba,
I have to remind you that, according to Imam Sadiq, we should only accept a Hadith, that has a Witness from Quran or sayings of the Prophet:
In a Book called Wasail, it is recorded from Imam Sadiq:
اذا ورد عليکم حديث فوجدتم له شاهداً من کتاب الله او من قول رسول الله صلي الله عليه وآله و الا فالذي جاءکم به اولي به
And also in the Book Kafi,
"ما لم يوافق من الحديث القرآن فهو زخرف"
Meaning, Imam Sadiq said, if they give you a Hadith from us, which has a Witness from Quran, or Sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, it is acceptable. But if it is different from the sayings of Quran, then it is false.

Every Hadith of 12 Imams are indeed the Hadith of Prophet Muhammad(pbut). There are authentic Hadiths in which Imam Sadiq says that his Hadiths are the Hadiths of their fathers untill Prophet Muhammad. See Al-Kafi( حديثي حديث أبي، وحديث أبي حديث جدّي ، وحديث جدّي حديث الحسين، وحديث الحسين حديث الحسن، وحديث الحسن حديث أميرالمؤمنين، وحديث أميرالمؤمنين حديث رسول اللّه صلي الله عليه و آله و سلم، وحديث رسول اللّه صلي الله عليه وآله وسلم قول اللّه عزّ وجلّ). So, the Hadiths of Imams are indeed the Hadiths of Prophet Muhammad(pbut).

The idea that, the Qaim 'before rising' will have a minor occultation, has no witness within Quran or Hadithes of Muhammad. So, it is not acceptable.
But i can bring Hadithes from Imams, that the Qaim's Qeybat (disappearence) is after He rises, Not before. And I have Witness for this from Quran and Hadithes of Muhammad. Thus, this is acceptable.

What do you mean? You are either ingnorant or liar.
1.Contrary to what you mentioned, we do not believe that Imam Mahdi Al-Qaim has a minor occultation before his rising.

2.According to many Hadiths, Imam Mahdi would have two Qeybats(occultations) that one of them is minor and the other is major. For example see, Al-Kafi, V.1, P. 340.(للقائم غيبتان:إحداهما قصيرة والأخرى طويلة)

3.According to Hadiths from our infallible Imams, the first of those two occultations is the minor occultation and the second one is the major occultation, so his rising is after his second and major occultation. For example, see Kamaluddin, V.1, P. 324.(وَ أَنَّ لِلْقَائِمِ مِنَّا غَيْبَتَيْنِ إِحْدَاهُمَا أَطْوَلُ مِنَ الْأُخْرَى أَمَّا الْأُولَى فَسِتَّةُ أَيَّامٍ أَوْ سِتَّةُ أَشْهُرٍ أَوْ سِتُّ ( أو ...) سِنِينَ وَ أَمَّا الْأُخْرَى فَيَطُولُ أَمَدُهَا حَتَّى يَرْجِعَ عَنْ هَذَا الْأَمْرِ أَكْثَرُ مَنْ يَقُولُ بِهِ)

4. When the major occultation of Imam Mahdi Al-Qaim began after the minor one, he(pbuh) himself, said that his major occultation has began and his appearance and rising would be after it. See, Kamaluddin by Sheykh Saduq, V. 2, P. 516/ and Al-Ihtijaj by Tabarsi, V. 2, P. 555-6/ and Kashfol Ghommah by Muhaddith Al-Irbili, V. 2, P. 530.(فقد وقعت الغيبه التّامّه فلا ظهور الاّ بعد اذن الله تعالي ذكرُهُ و ذلك بعد طول الأمد و قسوه القلوب و امتلاءِ الأرضِ جوراً)

Good luck!

 

[mojtaba]

Your logic is similar to how Christians reason. They say, Jesus has warned us, against false prophets, saying 'beware of the false prophets', and they use it to deny Muhammad. In Shia Hadithes there are many Hadithes that when Qaim comes, Shia fail to recognize Him. The Bab fulfilled all the Prophecies that were described in Authentic Hadithes of Prophet, Imams and verses of Quran.

There were many men through the history who claimed what Bab claimed. Bab was only one of those fake mahdis.
As I brought the authentic Hadiths, many reliable people reported the birth of Imam Mahdi Al-Qaim in the time of his biological father, i.e. Imam Hasan Al-Askari, and Imam Hasan said that he is our Imam and the Qaim, not others, so we must not divide our religion and if we do, we would be destroyed.

Authentic sayings of infallibles strongly reject Bab and prove his lie.

Good luck!

 

[mojtaba]

Dear Mojtaba, You misunderstood. There is no Contradition. The Last Day, is not literally the final Day on earth. The Imams already interpreted that to mean, the Day the true religion disappears. That is when Qaim rises to establish the Religion again.
Your idea that People of Islam are the Last people, has no witness from Quran, thus is not acceptable. But my witness is Quran and Hadithes of Muhammad. In Quran it is said, Muslims are a Middle People, and Every people have an End, and in Hadithes from Prophet, it is said Period of Muslims is 1000 years. My witness again is Quran, as it says, God makes the affair from Heaven to earth, then it returns up to Himself in 1000 years. So, all I say, have supports from Quran and Hadithes of Muhammad, but what you say, has no witness.

Good luck.

I do not know what do you mean. I see that you are only claiming things without any reason. Sa'di( a famous Iranian poet ) said, 'مشک آن است که ببوید نه آنکه عطار بگوید', which means, 'Musk is which itself smells, not which perfumer claims![=The proof of the pudding is in the eating. ]'

As I proved frequently in this thread and other related ones, Quran and authentic Hadiths strongly reject your beliefs.

Good luck!

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

You avoided the question. See my question again. It is in Bihar, Volume 51-53, related to Qaim. I asked why the Imams said that. How would this Hadith be related to Qaim, and helps to recognize true from false?

I avoided nothing. The Imam made a point but you were trying to squeeze something else out of it.

Then according what you say, the Muslims who lived after proclamation of Muhammad were all living during the Akhar alzaman. This contradicts with Hadithes regarding Akhar alzaman, for according to many words recorded in Islam, Akhar alzaman had not come. Here are some examples....

The Prophet of Islam is considered as the Messenger of Akhir al-Zaman:
"
بحارالأنوار 15 202 باب 2- البشائر بمولده و نبوته من ال
تَسْمَعَانِ مِنِّي هَذَا وَ اللَّهِ نَبِيُّ آخِرِ الزَّمَانِ وَ اللَّهِ سَيَخْرُجُ إِلَى قَرِيبٍ يَدْعُو النَّاسَ إِلَى شَهَادَةِ أَنْ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللَّه"

meaning that he started the period of Akhir al-Zaman. Funny that you cite the book Bihar al-anwar but completely ignore the multiple traditions that narrate Imam Mahdi's birth and the people that witnessed him with his father more than a thousand years ago.