Shoe is on the other foot: Prove there is not God.

[Charity]

Okay. God ultimately holds the power of life and death. God wants us to experience the evil, death, so that later after being brought back to life we will appreciate life fully. The act of death was evil, but it was a necessary evil for the purpose of good

I agree that God holds the power of life and death....But God didn't ultimately create death, that was brought on by man and the result of sin, the wages of sin is death according to the Bible.
What do you mean after being brought back to life we will appreciate life fully? Are you speaking of life in Heaven? If so the former things will not matter anyway, so that would not be a scriptural basis for your statement. Unless you believe in reincarnation.
Death was not a necessary evil for the purpose of good, it was brought on by man and death was the result of mans action....The consequence of an action.

 

[AK4]

So... the evil is actually good?

Youre trying to trap me. The scriptures states "woe to those who call evil good". This what youre trying to get me to do. And im not. I am saying evil can be used to make something good come out of it. The evil was evil. Thats it. For example, the evil my ex keeps doing to me and my kids [yes it is true evil and not just me crying about it] has at least for me brought out the good of how close and knowledgable i have come of God and Jesus. possibly the same thing Paul went through with the "thorn in his flesh". Possibly the same David experience after his sin of killing that one guy and God had an angel kill a lot of the israelites for his actions. And the biggest of them all, the evil that had to be done of killing His Son so that all can be saved. Do you get my point now?

 

[Charity]

I think they go hand in hand. I think science is another way God reveals Himself and We can use science to get to know God and how He does things. [imo i think He is teaching us something that we will also do some of things that He has done like create and so science can show us how He did it so we can do something similar in future when we become like Him]. The only thing i can back up in that parenthetical sentence is that we will be like Him, other than that the rest is speculation.

I sorta agree with that Dawkins statement. We probably can only go so far with science and the rest God will probably show us plainly. But to be infinitly unknowable just doesnt match up with the scriptures.

In reading this I am wondering exactly what denomination you are, I would believe by some of the particular ways you express a point maybe you are LDS. I know that doesn't really matter what you are, but your pov doesn't correspond with most of the mainstream denominations that I have been in. I am not saying this to offend you but I just find some thoughts in this post to be much different than mainstream denominations.
Most people tend to take scripture out of context, forgetting that words and the way they were used are a lot different than they are today......It takes a lot of study to actually get down to the point and how it was related in Biblical days and now.

 

[Charity]

Youre trying to trap me. The scriptures states "woe to those who call evil good". This what youre trying to get me to do. And im not. I am saying evil can be used to make something good come out of it. The evil was evil. Thats it. For example, the evil my ex keeps doing to me and my kids [yes it is true evil and not just me crying about it] has at least for me brought out the good of how close and knowledgable i have come of God and Jesus. possibly the same thing Paul went through with the "thorn in his flesh". Possibly the same David experience after his sin of killing that one guy and God had an angel kill a lot of the israelites for his actions. And the biggest of them all, the evil that had to be done of killing His Son so that all can be saved. Do you get my point now?

Sorry about your problems, Yes these things to tend to either bring you closer or in some cases it drives some people away because they blame God....I'm happy that you chose the first one.....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Youre trying to trap me. The scriptures states "woe to those who call evil good". This what youre trying to get me to do. And im not.

Actually, I didn't have any scripture in mind. I just saw the position as inherently conflicted.

I am saying evil can be used to make something good come out of it.

IOW, it's evil in the short run but ultimately good, right?

The evil was evil. Thats it. For example, the evil my ex keeps doing to me and my kids [yes it is true evil and not just me crying about it] has at least for me brought out the good of how close and knowledgable i have come of God and Jesus. possibly the same thing Paul went through with the "thorn in his flesh". Possibly the same David experience after his sin of killing that one guy and God had an angel kill a lot of the israelites for his actions. And the biggest of them all, the evil that had to be done of killing His Son so that all can be saved. Do you get my point now?

Yes. You don't like the implications of either available alternative, so you're trying to waffle between them to avoid the consequences of both.

 

[AK4]

I agree that God holds the power of life and death....But God didn't ultimately create death, that was brought on by man and the result of sin, the wages of sin is death according to the Bible.

You gotta think deeper. All is out of God. God created satan [the lucifer story is a hoax] Satan has the power to bring death. Yes Adam sinned so Satan was allowed to excercise his power. So God creating satan is ultimately responsible for death.

What do you mean after being brought back to life we will appreciate life fully? Are you speaking of life in Heaven?

Going to heaven is another doctrine of the church that isnt fully scriptural. Heres a quick one, Where does God dwell? In the heavens [heaven in the scriptures where almost always plural] Where is His temple? You/We are the temple of God. Gods throne is in the heavens in His temple and you are the temple so is it possible to go to heaven? That is why it says "no man has acsended to heaven except He who is from Heaven" and thats Jesus.

If so the former things will not matter anyway, so that would not be a scriptural basis for your statement. Unless you believe in reincarnation.

The will not matter or as it says come to mind. Sometimes translators mix mind and heart so it depends on how you look at it. I say come to heart because that fits the scriptures better especially Ecc 1:13 where it states "God has given man an experience of evil to humble him". So if the things we experience in this life never came to mind or didnt matter, that would beg the question why make us go through all this?

Reincarnation is dying over and over and over and over again until you get it right. The bible say we die once after that, judgment and in judgment some will experience the second death [death of the carnal mind since they didnt judge themselves and "die" or be buried with Christ or "reckon themsleves dead while alive in the first life]. But the second death in judgment does this

Isa 26:9 - At R889 night my F332 soul longs for You, Indeed, my F333 spirit within me seeks R890 You diligently; For when the earth experiences F334 Your judgments The inhabitants of the world learn R891 righteousness.

Death was not a necessary evil for the purpose of good, it was brought on by man and death was the result of mans action....The consequence of an action.

Do you still think this after what i showed you above? If you need the verses i can show you em

 

[Walkntune]

I disagree. they both should go hand in hand. Some areas though it does take more faith than logic, but still it should be logical or plausible.

So you disagree that the reasoning mind is at enmity with God and connot know God or be subject to his laws or you disagree that God is moved and pleased by faith?

 

[Walkntune]

Truth hurts does it?

What truth???LOL

 

[AK4]

In reading this I am wondering exactly what denomination you are, I would believe by some of the particular ways you express a point maybe you are LDS.

No denomination. The last church or organization i came out of was worldwide church of God who beliefs arent too far from JWs, well at least when it came to hell and the lake of fire and judgment and the Sabbath. I tell you what a load of my shoulders it was when God dragged me out of her.

I know that doesn't really matter what you are, but your pov doesn't correspond with most of the mainstream denominations that I have been in. I am not saying this to offend you but I just find some thoughts in this post to be much different than mainstream denominations.

Not offended at all. Actually thats a compliment to me. Thanks. It lets me know i have followed this command

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Re 18:4 - And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. [/FONT]

Most people tend to take scripture out of context, forgetting that words and the way they were used are a lot different than they are today......It takes a lot of study to actually get down to the point and how it was related in Biblical days and now

Tis true and sometimes even when they use context it twists the meaning. Thanks again for the compliment

 

[AK4]

Yes. You don't like the implications of either available alternative, so you're trying to waffle between them to avoid the consequences of both.

Quick resopnse to this because i gotta go. Actually thats not true. I gave up on God actually during the middle of the whole ordeal He put me through. I hated God and wanted nothing to deal with Him. Nothing special happened that i can remember but one day i thought id try again and from there i fell back into babylon and its lies until i was dragged out. So i am not avoiding anything, plus after knowing the truth about freewill, how could i avoid it?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Quick resopnse to this because i gotta go. Actually thats not true. I gave up on God actually during the middle of the whole ordeal He put me through. I hated God and wanted nothing to deal with Him. Nothing special happened that i can remember but one day i thought id try again and from there i fell back into babylon and its lies until i was dragged out. So i am not avoiding anything, plus after knowing the truth about freewill, how could i avoid it?

I wasn't talking about your personal beliefs; I was talking about your position in this argument.

 

[Charity]

You gotta think deeper. All is out of God. God created satan [the lucifer story is a hoax] Satan has the power to bring death. Yes Adam sinned so Satan was allowed to excercise his power. So God creating satan is ultimately responsible for death.





Going to heaven is another doctrine of the church that isnt fully scriptural. Heres a quick one, Where does God dwell? In the heavens [heaven in the scriptures where almost always plural] Where is His temple? You/We are the temple of God. Gods throne is in the heavens in His temple and you are the temple so is it possible to go to heaven? That is why it says "no man has acsended to heaven except He who is from Heaven" and thats Jesus.



The will not matter or as it says come to mind. Sometimes translators mix mind and heart so it depends on how you look at it. I say come to heart because that fits the scriptures better especially Ecc 1:13 where it states "God has given man an experience of evil to humble him". So if the things we experience in this life never came to mind or didnt matter, that would beg the question why make us go through all this?

Reincarnation is dying over and over and over and over again until you get it right. The bible say we die once after that, judgment and in judgment some will experience the second death [death of the carnal mind since they didnt judge themselves and "die" or be buried with Christ or "reckon themsleves dead while alive in the first life]. But the second death in judgment does this

Isa 26:9 - At R889 night my F332 soul longs for You, Indeed, my F333 spirit within me seeks R890 You diligently; For when the earth experiences F334 Your judgments The inhabitants of the world learn R891 righteousness.



Do you still think this after what i showed you above? If you need the verses i can show you em

I was speaking about death not in the sense of Adam but death began when Cain killed his brother, this was the first death......
God didn't create Satan as an evil being.....He was created or existed as an angel who rebelled and was cast out of Heaven....So why did Satan "Lucifer" or whatever you wish to call him, Rebel against God, I thought there was no sin in Heaven, and now we have rebellion which the Bible says "rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft".

You say that Jesus is the only one who ascended to Heaven, what do you do with the scripture that says two prophets were taken to Heaven? Do we just throw that scripture out?
You tell me to think deeper....I've been thinking about all this probably far longer than you, I don't mean this in a derogarotory sense....But my whole life has revolved around God, Jesus, Bible and many years of study and teaching......

You say the Lucifer story is a hoax, then how do you decide what is true and what isn't? I mean it's either there in written word or it isn't.....God said this, but we can throw that out because He didn't say what he means.....
Remember this rule of thumb in scripture....God said what He meant and meant what He said..............

 

[Walkntune]

Telsa never succeeded in providing predictive results from his "ether" theory.

So science will just stand on a math formula instead???
So riddle me this one?
It is not logical to assume that just because A is between B and C, that A keeps B and C from colliding.
Especially when the definition of A (space) is the very lack of ability to interfere with B or C.

 

[tumbleweed41]

God didn't create Satan as an evil being.....He was created or existed as an angel who rebelled and was cast out of Heaven....So why did Satan "Lucifer" or whatever you wish to call him, Rebel against God, I thought there was no sin in Heaven, and now we have rebellion which the Bible says "rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft".

The rebellion of Satan and the casting from heaven is not contained in the Bible.

 

[Walkntune]

A better question would be,
Can you show the the direct effect of love on objects?

Sure
We see it in society all of the time with children who come from loving homes and others who don't.

 

[Charity]

No denomination. The last church or organization i came out of was worldwide church of God who beliefs arent too far from JWs, well at least when it came to hell and the lake of fire and judgment and the Sabbath. I tell you what a load of my shoulders it was when God dragged me out of her.


Not offended at all. Actually thats a compliment to me. Thanks. It lets me know i have followed this command

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Re 18:4 - And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. [/FONT]



Tis true and sometimes even when they use context it twists the meaning. Thanks again for the compliment

Your welcome I guess, It really wasn't written as a complement. It was pointing out the fact that you have some different and somewhat twisted ideas on some of the scriptures. Now though I do understand where you are coming from since I know where you got them.....:foot:
I do complement you on standing for what you believe to be true......
Us arguing who's right and who's wrong would only prove to be fruitless in this thread. As I stated in an earlier post, drawing a line in the dirt and have a spitting contest would prove as frugal....

 

[tumbleweed41]

So science will just stand on a math formula instead???

As long as it provides predictive results.

So riddle me this one?
It is not logical to assume that just because A is between B and C, that A keeps B and C from colliding.

No, there is no logic in that statement.

Especially when the definition of A (space) is the very lack of ability to interfere with B or C.

I believe B or C would need momentum (F = ma) towards each other in order to predict a collision.

 

[Walkntune]

Your kind of like saying if we use a room as empty space and throw a bunch of objects in the room then chances of these objects colliding and being in each others path is just slim to none?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Your kind of like saying if we use a room as empty space and throw a bunch of objects in the room then chances of these objects colliding and being in each others path is just slim to none?

Do you buy your straw men in bulk or something?

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

The rebellion of Satan and the casting from heaven is not contained in the Bible.

Depends on which Bible.