Should a "Christian" faith observe the Sabbath?

[james2ko]

I don't know. I only know that church is on Sunday. Sunday is the Lord's Day.

I can't blame you. At one point, I experienced the same perspective. Most of us never ask why we believe what we believe or why we do what we do. In a society filled with popular customs and traditions, few of us try to determine the real origin of things. We generally accept common religious practices without question, choosing to do what everyone else does because it is easy, natural, and comfortable--because there is a certain "safety in numbers." The power of peer pressure alone makes us avoid hard questions, so we practice what is acceptable and fashionable.

To illustrate, A third grade teacher asked her class, "Can anyone tell me who discovered America". A student raised his hand an answered, "The Indians." Somewhat befuddled, the teacher sheepishly mentioned this was not the correct answer.

Like the teacher, we follow along as we have been taught, assuming what we believe and do is right. We take our beliefs for granted, almost never taking time to PROVE them. Nowhere is this more true than Sunday observance. Over two billion people keep Sunday without knowing why--or where this practice originated--or if God even cares. We suppose it is found in the Bible because we see so many professing Christians observing it. Surely billions can't be wrong. Or can they?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

For an atheist, you sure know your way around scripture.

I don't reject Christianity because I'm unfamiliar with it; I reject Christianity because I've examined it and found it lacking.

Unfortunately, as is commonly done, it has been taken grossly out of context. Verses 1-4 identify the subject in context as vegetarianism—not which days should be kept.

Ah... so when Paul talks about "observing the day", he's really talking about eating? :sarcastic

Is Paul stating here that Jesus, by His death, did away with the very days He kept throughout His whole life? Of course not. Does he say, “God esteems one day above another” and “God esteems every day alike?” The verse says, “Each person esteems one day above another.” This is telling us that it was something men were teaching not God.

Bingo.

Christ is not going to judge us by what any man believes. He will judge us by His Word, the Bible. He says so in John 12:48, “…the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day”

In no way is Paul giving a license to believe whatever you want. God commands, “…and lean not unto your own understanding” (Prov. 3:5). Paul stated, “the holy scriptures…are able to make you wise unto salvation” (II Tim. 3:15). Paul is writing to both Jewish and Gentile converts at Rome. He encouraged them to accept those who were weak in the faith (Rom. 14:1), and to not dispute with them over insignificant matters, nor sit in judgment of them. Some of these newly converted Gentiles, being weak in the faith, were vegetarians and refused to eat meats. Why did Paul break into this thought—about eating meat—and mention “days?”

Because it's the same principle: believers were judging each other based on their personal view of the standards they should uphold. Paul is saying that this is wrong generally. He's implying that it's wrong to look down on your brother for not being a vegetarian, and that it's wrong for you to look down on him for not observing what you deem to be the Sabbath.

Notice! Not only were there weak converts who avoided eating meat offered to idols, but there were others who customarily abstained from particular foods. They semi-fasted on specific days. Still others refused to practice a semi-fast or abstain from foods, but regarded every day in the same way! The Jews at the time were divided as to when to fast (Luke 18:12; Zec 7:4-7) The Gentile converts were also divided as to what days to abstain from certain foods. Because of their variety of backgrounds, they could not agree on which days to do this. There were divisions in the congregation. Jesus taught us that fasting is something that is done without making it obvious to others (Matt. 6:16). It is a personal matter, between an individual and God.

They also disagreed on whether Christians should continue the Jewish tradition of keeping the Sabbath. Like the issue of food, Paul declares this to be a personal matter between an individual and God as well.

The subject of this question surrounded the matter of abstinence of food on particular days—upon which days many voluntarily abstained from certain foods. It did not involve whether to keep or not keep God’s Sabbaths!.

No, it's a part of the larger discussion through Romans and elsewhere about whether Christians need to be Jews... whether they need to continue the Jewish practices of the "Old Covenant" like circumcision, keeping kosher, and observing the Sabbath. Over and over again, Paul says that Christians don't need to do these things.

This scripture is quoted by nearly everyone in an attempt to prove that Paul did away with the Sabbath keeping, Holy Day observance, clean and unclean meats. The truth of the matter is that real meaning of these verses is that Christians should not let people arbitrarily judge their conduct.

... as you are doing now by judging Christians who don't keep the Sabbath?

Only the Church (Col. 1:18)-"the body of Christ" (2:17)-can do this. Notice that the word "is" is italicized. This means that it was not in the original Greek text. By adding it, translators blurred the true meaning of this passage. The NASB version, you quoted above, totally misconstrued the words of the original Greek.

I've been told that the NASB is a pretty good translation, but if you've got one you like better, please share with us what it says.

The phrase "in meat, or in drink" (vs. 16), translated from the Greek phrase en broosei ay en posei, meaning "in eating or in drinking." Some ascetics in Colosse were teaching that self-denial and will-worship (vs. 20-22) were God's Way. (See Galatians 4:9-10)

Notice that the first phrase in verse 17 uses the present tense in reference to the Sabbath, Holy Days, etc. It says, in effect, "these days are [not were] a [fore]shadow of things to come." true Christians know that the Sabbath and Holy Days picture the Plan of God, which certainly involves many "things to come." Verse 18 is a final warning to Christians not to let anyone trick them about these important issues-because it is only the Church that was to judge them (vs. 17, end).

I see you glossed over "mere". It certainly seems to me that Paul is trying to point out the insignificance of these observances. The text doesn't square up with you apparently arguing that he's trying to say they're important.

The Colossians were Gentiles. They had never known God's Way, and had not previously kept His Sabbaths. In no way do these scriptures do away with God's Laws or Sabbaths! In fact, the Colossians were being criticized by unconverted Gentiles because they were keeping the Sabbath and Holy Days!

And he does so using the same core message you point out before: that these things are between the individual believer and God. How does this get you to requiring everyone to observe the Sabbath?

 

[thedope]

We suppose it is found in the Bible because they see so many professing Christians observing it. Surely billions can't be wrong. Or can they?

Many are called but few choose to listen. When you pray, do so in secret, as your father knows you in secret. When you give alms don't do so with trumpets blaring.
Sunday church is a cultural institutional practice, a place for negotiating social currencies, money changers in the temple. Sunday worship services are not conducted for god but for participants. We put on our "Sunday best" so as to make a good impression. The whole Sunday church scene is exactly and precisely contraindicated per Jesus' instructions. That we come together for good works is meaningful, that we minister to one another is meaningful.

 

[Midnight Pete]

I can't blame you. At one point, I experienced the same perspective. Most of us never ask why we believe what we believe or why we do what we do. In a society filled with popular customs and traditions, few of us try to determine the real origin of things. We generally accept common religious practices without question, choosing to do what everyone else does because it is easy, natural, and comfortable--because there is a certain "safety in numbers." The power of peer pressure alone makes us avoid hard questions, so we practice what is acceptable and fashionable.

To illustrate, A third grade teacher asked her class, "Can anyone tell me who discovered America". A student raised his hand an answered, "The Indians." Somewhat befuddled, the teacher sheepishly mentioned this was not the correct answer.

Like the teacher, we follow along as we have been taught, assuming what we believe and do is right. We take our beliefs for granted, almost never taking time to PROVE them. Nowhere is this more true than Sunday observance. Over two billion people keep Sunday without knowing why--or where this practice originated--or if God even cares. We suppose it is found in the Bible because they see so many professing Christians observing it. Surely billions can't be wrong. Or can they?

Sunday is the seventh day of the week. God created the world in six days and took Sunday off, or that's my understanding of it. You could be right about Saturday being the proper Sabbath day, though. I am not a historian or a theologian.

 

[ChristineES]

In Latin counties, Monday is the first day which would make Sunday the seventh day. In other places Sunday is the first day making Saturday the Seventh. Maybe either day is all right. I'll have to check with Moses.

 

[james2ko]

Ah... so when Paul talks about "observing the day", he's really talking about eating?

You strip a sentence from a paragraph and quote it out of context, after I explained the concept you are questioning a few paragraphs later? Not playing nice 9-10

Bingo.

I'm glad you agree.

Because it's the same principle: believers were judging each other based on their personal view of the standards they should uphold. Paul is saying that this is wrong generally. He's implying that it's wrong to look down on your brother for not being a vegetarian

I agree again...wait a minute...aren't you suppose to be refuting my statements? (This is what happens when you strip away a few words and quote someone out of context) Frustrating isn't it?

They also disagreed on whether Christians should continue the Jewish tradition of keeping the Sabbath. Like the issue of food, Paul declares this to be a personal matter between an individual and God as well.

Did Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, say the Sabbath was made for the Jews? (Mark 2:27-28)

. No, it's a part of the larger discussion through Romans and elsewhere about whether Christians need to be Jews... whether they need to continue the Jewish practices of the "Old Covenant" like circumcision, keeping kosher, and observing the Sabbath.

The laws regarding sacrifices, circumcision, ceremonial washings, were done away through Christ's sacrifice. Jesus denounced the unauthorized addition (Deut 12:32) of the 60+ requirements the Pharisees added to the Law of Moses. But the Sabbath as well as other laws remain. See post #37 on this thread for a more detailed explanation.

Over and over again, Paul says that Christians don't need to do these things.

Lets discuss them..Show me the mone...eerhhh.....I mean scripture...

... as you are doing now by judging Christians who don't keep the Sabbath?

I'm not judging them, God is (1 Peter 4:17)

.I've been told that the NASB is a pretty good translation, but if you've got one you like better, please share with us what it says.I see you glossed over "mere". It certainly seems to me that Paul is trying to point out the insignificance of these observances. The text doesn't square up with you apparently arguing that he's trying to say they're important.

Apparently so did Paul....It's not in the original Greek. Here's Col 2:17 in the KJV:

"Which G3739 are G2076 a shadow G4639 of things to come;G3195 but G1161 the G3588 body G4983 is of Christ.G5547

No "mere" here...hey that rhymes ...In the KJV version and other versions, the verb "is" is italicized which indicates it was not in the original Greek.

Let's kick it up a notch to the original Greek:

Which 3739 (Hos) oèv hos are 2076 (Esti) eiÎmið es-tee' a shadow 4639 (Skia) skia/ skee'-ah of things to come 3195 (Mello) meÑllw mel'-lo but 1161 (De) deÑ deh the body 4983 (Soma) swÜma so'-mah [is] of Christ 5547 (Christos) Xristo/v khris-tos'

No mere here either. Notice the linking verb "is" is in brackets. Why do you think that is? If it was correctly translated, this verse should read:
"Which are a shadow of things to come but the body of Christ!"

If we read it in context with verse 16, the exegesis becomes very clear. Here's an accurate paraphrase: "Don't let others judge you on what you should eat, drink, and which sabbaths and festivals you should keep, but only allow the church to judge you on how to observe these things."

KJV Copyright © 2001-2010, StudyLight.org

.And he does so using the same core message you point out before: that these things are between the individual believer and God. How does this get you to requiring everyone to observe the Sabbath?

When and how often we fast are between the individual and God. God was very specific on when and how to observe the Sabbath.

I don't reject Christianity because I'm unfamiliar with it; I reject Christianity because I've examined it and found it lacking.

Quite the rebuttal to a few obscure verses, especially coming from a person who rejects the very existence of the One who inspired them. I'm beginning to believe there are a few ounces left of "Christian Soup In Your Soul"... 9-10

 

[james2ko]

In Latin counties, Monday is the first day which would make Sunday the seventh day. In other places Sunday is the first day making Saturday the Seventh. Maybe either day is all right. I'll have to check with Moses.

I wouldn't want you to wait that long

Astronomers have confirmed the seven day cycle, which begins on Sunday, has not changed:

“The week of seven days has been in use ever since the days of the Mosaic dispensation, and we have no reason for supposing that any irregularities have existed in the succession of weeks and their days from that time to the present” (Dr. W.W. Campbell, Statement. [Dr. Campbell was Director of Lick Observatory, Mt. Hamilton, California.]).

The Roman Catholic Church also confirms Sunday as the first day of the week:

“For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible.”- Catholic Virginian, “To Tell You the Truth,” p. 9, Oct. 3,
1947"

“Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day—Saturday—for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes. Did Christ change the day? I answer no!”
- James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore (1877-1921), signed letter

 

[balasta boy]

No. We're under the New Covenant, in which we follow Christ who is the fulfillment of the Law.

you are following the one who fulfill the law? how come you are not following what Christ did? Matthew 5:17-19 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[balasta boy]

In Latin counties, Monday is the first day which would make Sunday the seventh day. In other places Sunday is the first day making Saturday the Seventh. Maybe either day is all right. I'll have to check with Moses.

have you read about the sabado in their bible sabado is seventh day in their bible and sabado means Saturday in English or sabbath in English bible

 

[balasta boy]

Sunday is the seventh day of the week. God created the world in six days and took Sunday off, or that's my understanding of it. You could be right about Saturday being the proper Sabbath day, though. I am not a historian or a theologian.

let us ask the bible did the tells us that if the church has a lot of members that's true? Matthew 5:13-14
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
its not the number its the bible base belief.
did the bible tell us that Sunday is the seventh day?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Paul, in making the new religion of Christianity more appealing to Gentiles taught...

Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"


After breaking the Jewish Sabbath Laws, Jesus, was quoted in Mark as saying...


Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

 

[Rakhel]

this is how the Jews read Leviticus 23: 2

Speak to the children of Israel and say to them:
The Lord's appointed [holy days] that you shall
designate as holy occasions. These are My
appointed [holy days]

Leviticus - Chapter 23 (Parshah Emor) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

They are call holy occasions. This isn't even talking about Shabbat. It is talking about how we are to observe the holidays.

 

[Katzpur]

I have some Mormon friends who observe the sabbath, but should they? Are Christians not under the Mosaic law?

Seeing as you haven't posted for nine months, I doubt you're going to see my response. But for what it's worth, I find it very strange that your Mormon friends who observe the Sabbath (I'm assuming you mean a Saturday Sabbath) since their Church's worship services would definitely be held on Sundays.

 

[Blackdog22]

No. We're under the New Covenant, in which we follow Christ who is the fulfillment of the Law.

Except Jesus said not one letter of the law would be done away with and whoever didn't follow it would be considered the least in Heaven. I think your understand of what he meant by fulfillment isn't what you think it is.

Also, why would God make this rule up about not doing anything on Sunday under the penalty of murder only to go, well, maybe that was dumb, ill take it away now. Makes no sense yes?

 

[Blackdog22]

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

What does that mean exactly?

 

[Pegg]

What does that mean exactly?

the Jews had turned the sabbath into a burden...they developed a great multitude of rules that had to be strictly adhered to on the sabbath.

some of the rules included not being allowed to tie ones shoe lace...or if you had a toothache, you could not try and sooth it with vinegar because that was considered a type of 'work'

So Jesus reminded the jews that the sabbath was a day for them to rest and enjoy Gods provisions...it was given to them as a day for refreshment for their souls...not one they had to struggle through and feel downhearted because they accidentally broke a sabbath rule

Basically they had missed its purpose.... it was for them, not the other way around.

 

[Blackdog22]

the Jews had turned the sabbath into a burden...they developed a great multitude of rules that had to be strictly adhered to on the sabbath.

some of the rules included not being allowed to tie ones shoe lace...or if you had a toothache, you could not try and sooth it with vinegar because that was considered a type of 'work'

So Jesus reminded the jews that the sabbath was a day for them to rest and enjoy Gods provisions...it was given to them as a day for refreshment for their souls...not one they had to struggle through and feel downhearted because they accidentally broke a sabbath rule

Basically they had missed its purpose.... it was for them, not the other way around.

God killed people for picking up sticks for their, likely, freezing or hungry family in the Bible didn't he?

It sounds like God was the one who made it such a problem and then he sent himself to make his own rule not so rediculous. Oh Religion....if only I could make sense of ye.

 

[Desert Snake]

Seeing as you haven't posted for nine months, I doubt you're going to see my response. But for what it's worth, I find it very strange that your Mormon friends who observe the Sabbath (I'm assuming you mean a Saturday Sabbath) since their Church's worship services would definitely be held on Sundays.

Sure. And are you going to post a list of what is "o.k." to do on the sabbath?

 

[Rakhel]

the Jews had turned the sabbath into a burden...they developed a great multitude of rules that had to be strictly adhered to on the sabbath.

some of the rules included not being allowed to tie ones shoe lace...or if you had a toothache, you could not try and sooth it with vinegar because that was considered a type of 'work'

So Jesus reminded the jews that the sabbath was a day for them to rest and enjoy Gods provisions...it was given to them as a day for refreshment for their souls...not one they had to struggle through and feel downhearted because they accidentally broke a sabbath rule

Basically they had missed its purpose.... it was for them, not the other way around.

actually they were still debating that fact. And have been ever since.

 

[Pegg]

actually they were still debating that fact. And have been ever since.

how is it viewed todayl, are there still many rules governing how the sabbath is to be celebrated?

how do you celebrate it today??