Should a potential rape wictim be allowed to use deadly force?

[work in progress]

And what are his hands doing while she's doing that?

Remember? He assumes he has total control by that point, and is busy fiddling with getting her pants down...he's not going to even be aware of where her arms are, or her hands.

And his weapon?

Same thing! I would imagine from the size and power differential that he probably wouldn't even think that he needed his knife or gun from that point on. His only concern would be to stop her from screaming, if there was a possibility of anyone else around. Again, his size has given him a sense of invincibility....which a lot of big, especially fat guys have, before they realize that they never learned how to fight when they step up and try to intimidate the wrong person. There are a lot of guys who think they're tough and go out looking for fights, or even start fights in traffic incidents, who have no idea what a street fight could lead to if the other guy knows lethal strikes or grips and is willing to use them....that's why I don't take MMA too seriously as a comparison with street fighting. Even the UFC has rules, and had to add more and more rules as the years have gone by to prevent the prospect of a dead combatant in the cage...but now I went way off topic, yikes!

I wouldn't argue that it's "wrong", only that she might assume under the circumstances that escalating the violence is the wrong thing to do, and she might be right.

It's the wrong thing to do, if she is too frozen in fear, or is not likely to follow through with such a lethal move - just poking him in the eyes would likely make things worse...but then, how much worse could they get? Many times a rapist is already calculating that if he allows his victim to live, he will end up back in prison - so, she may as well go for broke, if it is something more than the typical date-rape by an imposing boyfriend who thinks he could talk his way out of it, or she wouldn't really dare press charges.
The scenario is a good reason why I feel that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, which has become very popular in the last 10 years thanks to MMA, is especially valuable for women to learn a little of. BJJ teaches someone how to fight from a defensive position, rather than needing to go immediately for a reversal...which your size differential would make impossible.

Moot point though, really, since a woman who has trained extensively in martial arts and is willing to use it does not fit the typical victim profile for violent offenders.

It would help a lot of women's self confidence and reduce their fear in situations where they may be out alone at night, or in elevators late at night( if you're familiar with the crap that started after Rebecca Watson complained about such an incident at the end of a skeptics conference).

From all the close calls I've heard about, it seems that in that situation the most effective strategy is to break free of the attacker's control and run like hell. I have not heard any success stories about women avoiding a rape by using deadly force.

If it's possible! But the scenario you presented of the 300 lb man having control of a 100 lb woman didn't seem to make breaking free a likely possibility. Even I've noticed that a lot of the Jiu Jitsu moves to break someone's grip or hold, don't work as well with guys who are over 250 lbs.

 

[Father Heathen]

Abusive men and women are not to my taste either

Then why shed a tear if one happens to get hurt or even killed in their attempt to prey upon the innocent? Their partners are better off and will get over it.

 

[Alceste]

Then why shed a tear if one happens to get hurt or even killed in their attempt to prey upon the innocent? Their partners are better off and will get over it.

You've got a pretty cavalier attitude about what it's like to "get over" taking a human life. Do you have any evidence to back up your belief that we can easily bounce back from that kind of trauma as long as the deceased was a jerk?

 

[Alceste]

Remember? He assumes he has total control by that point, and is busy fiddling with getting her pants down...he's not going to even be aware of where her arms are, or her hands.
Same thing! I would imagine from the size and power differential that he probably wouldn't even think that he needed his knife or gun from that point on. His only concern would be to stop her from screaming, if there was a possibility of anyone else around. Again, his size has given him a sense of invincibility....which a lot of big, especially fat guys have, before they realize that they never learned how to fight when they step up and try to intimidate the wrong person. There are a lot of guys who think they're tough and go out looking for fights, or even start fights in traffic incidents, who have no idea what a street fight could lead to if the other guy knows lethal strikes or grips and is willing to use them....that's why I don't take MMA too seriously as a comparison with street fighting. Even the UFC has rules, and had to add more and more rules as the years have gone by to prevent the prospect of a dead combatant in the cage...but now I went way off topic, yikes!

It's the wrong thing to do, if she is too frozen in fear, or is not likely to follow through with such a lethal move - just poking him in the eyes would likely make things worse...but then, how much worse could they get? Many times a rapist is already calculating that if he allows his victim to live, he will end up back in prison - so, she may as well go for broke, if it is something more than the typical date-rape by an imposing boyfriend who thinks he could talk his way out of it, or she wouldn't really dare press charges.
The scenario is a good reason why I feel that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, which has become very popular in the last 10 years thanks to MMA, is especially valuable for women to learn a little of. BJJ teaches someone how to fight from a defensive position, rather than needing to go immediately for a reversal...which your size differential would make impossible.
It would help a lot of women's self confidence and reduce their fear in situations where they may be out alone at night, or in elevators late at night( if you're familiar with the crap that started after Rebecca Watson complained about such an incident at the end of a skeptics conference).

If it's possible! But the scenario you presented of the 300 lb man having control of a 100 lb woman didn't seem to make breaking free a likely possibility. Even I've noticed that a lot of the Jiu Jitsu moves to break someone's grip or hold, don't work as well with guys who are over 250 lbs.

Just a few quick responses. Brazilian jiu jitsu or any martial art is a great idea for anyone. If nothing else, this type of hobby will make you look more confident and comfortable of your own body and more aware of your surroundings, which makes you an undesirable choice for a violent predator. However, one of the main premises of martial arts (at least all the ones I've learned) is that you should do your utmost to avoid ever having to use it. Step one is to scarper. (Unless they have a gun, in which case step one is to disarm them and step two is to scarper).

The massive man and tiny woman is Rick's pet scenario, not mine. I was only responding to it. What I meant is, when she goes for the eyes, her attacker is not going to be still fumbling around with her zips. He will react, and it could go either way. Eyes are a small target and heads can whip around pretty fast. Best to just break free of his grasp and skedaddle.

Have you ever heard a scenario where a 100 pound woman successfully evaded rape by a 300 pound man by sticking her thumbs in his eyes? Me neither. Have you ever heard of a scenario where a woman successfully evaded rape by skedaddling? Yes - Robert Pickton was caught that way.

 

[darkstar]

Just a few quick responses. Brazilian jiu jitsu or any martial art is a great idea for anyone. If nothing else, this type of hobby will make you look more confident and comfortable of your own body and more aware of your surroundings, which makes you an undesirable choice for a violent predator. However, one of the main premises of martial arts (at least all the ones I've learned) is that you should do your utmost to avoid ever having to use it. Step one is to scarper. (Unless they have a gun, in which case step one is to disarm them and step two is to scarper).

The massive man and tiny woman is Rick's pet scenario, not mine. I was only responding to it. What I meant is, when she goes for the eyes, her attacker is not going to be still fumbling around with her zips. He will react, and it could go either way. Eyes are a small target and heads can whip around pretty fast. Best to just break free of his grasp and skedaddle.

Have you ever heard a scenario where a 100 pound woman successfully evaded rape by a 300 pound man by sticking her thumbs in his eyes? Me neither. Have you ever heard of a scenario where a woman successfully evaded rape by skedaddling? Yes - Robert Pickton was caught that way.

I totally agree.
I am a martial artist myself and have taught my wife a few things. By martial artist, I have learned various forms. The biggest of these are Aikido/Aikijutsu and Krav Maga for over 13 years.
The first thing a good instructor teaches is how to avoid situations where you'll have to use what you're taught. You don't walk down a dark alley because you "can take whatever jumps out of the shadows"

I have a friend, who is a 100 pound woman. She's also a Marine. She was attacked one night in a dark parking lot. We still don't know if the guy was trying to rape her, mug her, combo of the two. We don't know. Why do we not know? Her training (Mostly from Krav Maga at an earlier age) kicked in and she punched the much larger man in the throat, and kicked him in the groin to slow him down. She then ran her butt off and left her groceries there in the parking lot.

I don't care if someone is my size or not. It's unwise to go for a small target like the eyes and fight when you can do something unexpected and get away. It's even more unwise when someone is 3x your size. It's MOST unwise to do something and not expect a reaction. If said 100lb. woman DID go for the eyes, before she could dig in enough to kill the attacker would undoubtedly grab for the hands and it becomes a wrestling match. At that point, who do you think would win.
However as I stated before. If you are pretty sure you are going to die if you do nothing, then fight like a cornered animal. If you get a chance, get away.

 

[beenie]

Just a few quick responses. Brazilian jiu jitsu or any martial art is a great idea for anyone. If nothing else, this type of hobby will make you look more confident and comfortable of your own body and more aware of your surroundings, which makes you an undesirable choice for a violent predator. However, one of the main premises of martial arts (at least all the ones I've learned) is that you should do your utmost to avoid ever having to use it. Step one is to scarper. (Unless they have a gun, in which case step one is to disarm them and step two is to scarper).

The massive man and tiny woman is Rick's pet scenario, not mine. I was only responding to it. What I meant is, when she goes for the eyes, her attacker is not going to be still fumbling around with her zips. He will react, and it could go either way. Eyes are a small target and heads can whip around pretty fast. Best to just break free of his grasp and skedaddle.

Have you ever heard a scenario where a 100 pound woman successfully evaded rape by a 300 pound man by sticking her thumbs in his eyes? Me neither. Have you ever heard of a scenario where a woman successfully evaded rape by skedaddling? Yes - Robert Pickton was caught that way.

I totally agree.
I am a martial artist myself and have taught my wife a few things. By martial artist, I have learned various forms. The biggest of these are Aikido/Aikijutsu and Krav Maga for over 13 years.
The first thing a good instructor teaches is how to avoid situations where you'll have to use what you're taught. You don't walk down a dark alley because you "can take whatever jumps out of the shadows"

I have a friend, who is a 100 pound woman. She's also a Marine. She was attacked one night in a dark parking lot. We still don't know if the guy was trying to rape her, mug her, combo of the two. We don't know. Why do we not know? Her training (Mostly from Krav Maga at an earlier age) kicked in and she punched the much larger man in the throat, and kicked him in the groin to slow him down. She then ran her butt off and left her groceries there in the parking lot.

I don't care if someone is my size or not. It's unwise to go for a small target like the eyes and fight when you can do something unexpected and get away. It's even more unwise when someone is 3x your size. It's MOST unwise to do something and not expect a reaction. If said 100lb. woman DID go for the eyes, before she could dig in enough to kill the attacker would undoubtedly grab for the hands and it becomes a wrestling match. At that point, who do you think would win.
However as I stated before. If you are pretty sure you are going to die if you do nothing, then fight like a cornered animal. If you get a chance, get away.

Agree here as well (another fellow martial artist).

 

[work in progress]

Just a few quick responses. Brazilian jiu jitsu or any martial art is a great idea for anyone. If nothing else, this type of hobby will make you look more confident and comfortable of your own body and more aware of your surroundings, which makes you an undesirable choice for a violent predator. However, one of the main premises of martial arts (at least all the ones I've learned) is that you should do your utmost to avoid ever having to use it. Step one is to scarper. (Unless they have a gun, in which case step one is to disarm them and step two is to scarper).

The massive man and tiny woman is Rick's pet scenario, not mine. I was only responding to it.

And so was I. If I recall, he mentioned that the 300 lb man grabbed the woman. If she was caught by surprise as well, he would be able to overpower her very quickly.

What I meant is, when she goes for the eyes, her attacker is not going to be still fumbling around with her zips. He will react, and it could go either way. Eyes are a small target and heads can whip around pretty fast. Best to just break free of his grasp and skedaddle.

We're in a closeup situation here...too close to do much else, where she doesn't even need to see his face - if she is able to grab the sides of his head, she can find the eyes quite easily. I did mention that this would be no-second-chances scenario, and it would have to be carried out by someone willing to use full force.

Have you ever heard a scenario where a 100 pound woman successfully evaded rape by a 300 pound man by sticking her thumbs in his eyes? Me neither.

I guess that was a rhetorical question, since you already answered for me! I may not have seen it, but according to the stories surrounding the female spies in WWII, the women trained by the OSS and other spy agencies taught their female agents the full set of hand-to-hand combat that the men were receiving. One of the Special Operations Executive SOE agents - a Violette Szabo, reported that she used such a move during the first occasion she was captured by the Germans. She used double thumb strikes to kill a lone guard who unlocked her cell door and came in (apparently for his own fun and games) after an interrogation session, and escaped from her German captors to a safe house where she could be evacuated to safety. A lot of the books about the WWII spies have similar stories....some of the are likely based in fact!

Have you ever heard of a scenario where a woman successfully evaded rape by skedaddling? Yes - Robert Pickton was caught that way.

Obviously that's the first thing to try to do; but how many women did Pickton kill before one finally was able to get away?

 

[work in progress]

I totally agree.
I am a martial artist myself and have taught my wife a few things. By martial artist, I have learned various forms. The biggest of these are Aikido/Aikijutsu and Krav Maga for over 13 years.
The first thing a good instructor teaches is how to avoid situations where you'll have to use what you're taught. You don't walk down a dark alley because you "can take whatever jumps out of the shadows"

Right, but I didn't say act recklessly! The point is a lot of women have to work at night and take public transit, and if they appear fearful and overly apprehensive, they will attract the attention of a would be assailant, who might consider a woman who's body language appears to be more confident, to be more difficult prey.

I have a friend, who is a 100 pound woman. She's also a Marine. She was attacked one night in a dark parking lot. We still don't know if the guy was trying to rape her, mug her, combo of the two. We don't know. Why do we not know? Her training (Mostly from Krav Maga at an earlier age) kicked in and she punched the much larger man in the throat, and kicked him in the groin to slow him down. She then ran her butt off and left her groceries there in the parking lot.

I assume that was a knuckle punch to the throat, right? That, or a finger jab to the throat, could have been a lethal strike....and even if not applied with full force, it could be enough to knock the wind out of the assailant.

I don't care if someone is my size or not. It's unwise to go for a small target like the eyes and fight when you can do something unexpected and get away. It's even more unwise when someone is 3x your size. It's MOST unwise to do something and not expect a reaction. If said 100lb. woman DID go for the eyes, before she could dig in enough to kill the attacker would undoubtedly grab for the hands and it becomes a wrestling match. At that point, who do you think would win. in this scenario, how is a 100 lb woman going to prepare for a reaction?

Yes, and we already covered that in the first exchange! I was going with the hypothetical scenario laid out earlier, where the 300 lb man has already grabbed a hold of the woman. If it's an attack from behind, he's going to be able to take her down in short order. Her defensive options are much more limited than someone standing on their feet! But there are still options if she is willing and knows how to use them. She's not "digging in" with her thumbs! She's doing a full force thumb strike. Might as well go for broke, try to kill the assailant. And the eyes are a very soft target, with no protection, and right in back of the eyes is the brain...pushing in quickly, with as much force as she can manage, and she only has to worry about how to get out from under a 300 lb carcass!

Let's keep in mind that the thread topic is whether a potential rape victim should be allowed to use deadly force - my answer is yes. And the specific example presented with the 300 lb man and the 100 lb woman, makes an assumption that it is an impossible scenario for the woman to defend herself from the attack. My pov is that it may be extremely difficult, but it is not impossible!

 

[darkstar]

@work in progress
Oh don't get me wrong, look back in the thread, I agreed that use of deadly force should be considered self defense in these situations.

But, I would like to point out that the eyes are indeed squishy yet small. A full force thrust, even at close range, would likely miss. And if it DID hit, there is more resistance there than you'd think. I've attacked the eyes while grappling to change focus and allow me to get someone off of me, so I would know. Besides, anyone even in a defense situation, shouldn't go into it with the INTENT to kill. If it happens while trying to get away or protect yourself, its regrettable but happens. If you go into the situation with intent to kill specifically, then I don't care what the law says, It's murder and you're no better than your attacker.

 

[Ravenheart]

Yes she/or even he should use deadly force immediately, if not torture is possible first. For me the rule "eye for an eye" is fundamental and since rapists usually torture the victim before they kill it, so should the potential victim do to them after being sure of the attacker's intention. Death by torture. It's cruel, and it works!

 

[Archer]

You've got a pretty cavalier attitude about what it's like to "get over" taking a human life. Do you have any evidence to back up your belief that we can easily bounce back from that kind of trauma as long as the deceased was a jerk?

It is an individual thing. Every person is different. For some of us talking to you or killing you would not make a difference. For some of us we would be hunted by our guilt.

What about these people?

List of murderers by number of victims - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I wonder how many murderers who did not get caught are bothered by what they did?

Most murderers are normal people who lost control.

 

[Alceste]

Yes she/or even he should use deadly force immediately, if not torture is possible first. For me the rule "eye for an eye" is fundamental and since rapists usually torture the victim before they kill it, so should the potential victim do to them after being sure of the attacker's intention. Death by torture. It's cruel, and it works!

As I've pointed out repeatedly, rapists are usually the victim's husband of boyfriend. They do not "usually torture the victim before they kill it".

 

[darkstar]

As I've pointed out repeatedly, rapists are usually the victim's husband of boyfriend. They do not "usually torture the victim before they kill it".

Exactly.

And in those rare cases that more resembles a Law and Order episode rather than reality, the victim would do much better to get away and call the cops rather than "turn the tables" on the attacker.

Also, if you think about it there ARE limits to what a person should be able to do in their defense. For example, a woman carries a pocket knife. She's attacked and stabs and/ or cuts her attacker a few times and runs. Fine that's ok, if he survives he goes to jail. If not she did what she had to do.
If that same woman stabs her attacker 50 times? She's going to jail for manslaughter at best. Why? It's unreasonable. The attacker is no longer much of a threat after a few wounds, and she could have easily got away.

While I agree that a rapist is pretty low on the humanity scale, I think that giving a rape victim free reign to do anything that they want is just as dangerous. YES rape happens, NO it's not acceptable. However that being said, while I know some victims of rape personally, I also know someone that was accused falsely of rape.
What would stop someone from killing another person and crying rape to get out of trouble?

 

[whereismynotecard]

To let yourself get raped when you could kill the guy would be retarded.

 

[darkstar]

To let yourself get raped when you could kill the guy would be retarded.

I'm starting to believe that people just want an excuse to kill someone with no repercussions. All I know is my wife and friends are taught to escape and survive. Killing is rarely needed or called for.

Either way it seems the points I'm trying to make are mostly falling on deaf ears.

 

[whereismynotecard]

If you can easily escape, then do it. And hope the rapist doesn't come back for you I guess... Personally, I'd rather kill a rapist than get raped, or even have to live with the thought that he might come back for me. To me, a rapist doesn't deserve to live anyway. We have so many people in this world. We need to get rid of some of them, and rapists would be good candidates for removal.

 

[beenie]

As I've pointed out repeatedly, rapists are usually the victim's husband of boyfriend. They do not "usually torture the victim before they kill it".

OK, I understand what you're saying here, but IMO a rapist is a rapist is a rapist. If a boyfriend restrains his girlfriend and tries to force sex on her, and in defending herself, he's either maimed or dead...well it begs the question: why was he restraining her and raping her to begin with?

...and I'm sorry, but rape IS torture.

 

[Archer]

OK, I understand what you're saying here, but IMO a rapist is a rapist is a rapist. If a boyfriend restrains his girlfriend and tries to force sex on her, and in defending herself, he's either maimed or dead...well it begs the question: why was he restraining her and raping her to begin with?

...and I'm sorry, but rape IS torture.

The problem is in court. If he had no record of anything and there were no signs of violence she may go to jail.

 

[work in progress]

@work in progress
Oh don't get me wrong, look back in the thread, I agreed that use of deadly force should be considered self defense in these situations.

But, I would like to point out that the eyes are indeed squishy yet small. A full force thrust, even at close range, would likely miss. And if it DID hit, there is more resistance there than you'd think.

Maybe! I was thinking that at this sort of extreme close range, other pressure points, like the throat or lower on the body are not going to be available.

I've attacked the eyes while grappling to change focus and allow me to get someone off of me, so I would know.

****! You're more ruthless than I am. I mentioned them as a hypothetical, but there are certain moves I don't bother practicing because I feel too much internal resistance, and would have a hard time using them in an actual hostile situation. It's the same reason I would never consider carrying a knife -- I'd never be willing to use it during a fight, so it's no point having it available for someone to use against me!

In recent years, I haven't been a member of a club or done any formal training. My experience of late, has been with a co-worker who has belts in Aikido and Tae Kwon Do, and is experienced in a more exotic martial arts - the Chinese boxing style called Wing Chun. Since this guy has less experience with grappling arts than I do, so I've been trading what I know from collegiate wrestling and Jiu Jitsu for his expertise in Wing Chun. When he started demonstrating routines that included feigning finger jabs and other throat strikes, and the eye gouge - he noticed that I wasn't even close to following through....so we agreed that I would just stick to actual strikes and blocks that I would use if I was in a fight.

Besides, anyone even in a defense situation, shouldn't go into it with the INTENT to kill. If it happens while trying to get away or protect yourself, its regrettable but happens. If you go into the situation with intent to kill specifically, then I don't care what the law says, It's murder and you're no better than your attacker.

My Wing Chun expert has put together self-defense classes for women and for men who are of small stature, and unfortunately more likely to be preyed upon in a random attack. From his pov (which I pretty much agree with) someone who's small, and lacking in upper body strength, has less of an option to use self-restraint in a confrontation than you or I would. I'm afraid I'm more inclined to conclude that the 100 lb woman from that earlier example may not have any choice other than to be ready to use lethal force. The courts, at least where I live, are more inclined to be more restrictive on someone like me using what is deemed "reasonable force" to repel an attack, than someone like the 100 lb woman.

 

[darkstar]

Maybe! I was thinking that at this sort of extreme close range, other pressure points, like the throat or lower on the body are not going to be available.

****! You're more ruthless than I am. I mentioned them as a hypothetical, but there are certain moves I don't bother practicing because I feel too much internal resistance, and would have a hard time using them in an actual hostile situation. It's the same reason I would never consider carrying a knife -- I'd never be willing to use it during a fight, so it's no point having it available for someone to use against me!

In recent years, I haven't been a member of a club or done any formal training. My experience of late, has been with a co-worker who has belts in Aikido and Tae Kwon Do, and is experienced in a more exotic martial arts - the Chinese boxing style called Wing Chun. Since this guy has less experience with grappling arts than I do, so I've been trading what I know from collegiate wrestling and Jiu Jitsu for his expertise in Wing Chun. When he started demonstrating routines that included feigning finger jabs and other throat strikes, and the eye gouge - he noticed that I wasn't even close to following through....so we agreed that I would just stick to actual strikes and blocks that I would use if I was in a fight.

My Wing Chun expert has put together self-defense classes for women and for men who are of small stature, and unfortunately more likely to be preyed upon in a random attack. From his pov (which I pretty much agree with) someone who's small, and lacking in upper body strength, has less of an option to use self-restraint in a confrontation than you or I would. I'm afraid I'm more inclined to conclude that the 100 lb woman from that earlier example may not have any choice other than to be ready to use lethal force. The courts, at least where I live, are more inclined to be more restrictive on someone like me using what is deemed "reasonable force" to repel an attack, than someone like the 100 lb woman.

Hahaha I'm not so much ruthless as I am determined to survive. You have to understand, my Father was an Army Ranger, my Uncle a Marine and my Father's best friend Eric a Navy Seal. I was taught from a VERY young age, how to take care of myself.
Wing Chun is actually a very nice style. I've practiced it a little bit myself. I'm also more than willing to discuss martial arts, though this thread isn't the place to do it.

In close range, pressure points are actually more available. There are MANY pressure points on the body, my point in previous replies stand that there are many better ways of getting someone off of you. I have personally gone for the eyes, but I'm much bigger than the hypothetical woman you mentioned. Therefor techniques used would indeed be much different.

The central point remains: 1. Lethal force is a last resort and a regrettable action to be forced into taking.
2. It's actually much harder to kill someone with bare hands than you think.
3. Many people, as you mentioned, will learn techniques that could be used to kill. But how many of those people will use it? You'd be surprised what goes through your mind in a confrontation.

Either way, we seem to be in agreement overall. In the RARE events of a rape as portrayed on the TV, I don't think anyone would blame a woman if her attacker was killed while she tried to escape.
However, as I said before, there's a difference. If the woman gets away and does only what was needed to do so before calling the cops, no problem. If the woman could get away and instead decides to kill the guy before calling the cops? Well... that's NOT ok as she was no longer in danger at that point, but continued to harm the attacker.