Should a woman have to see a sonogram before receiving an abortion?

[michel]

A miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion.

I would go further than that to make it clear; A miscarriage is a spontaneous natural abortion.

 

[dawny0826]

Should I feel guilty for my "negligence" when I was date-raped? Had I not miscarried, I would have gotten an abortion.

Not everyone get pregnant through "negligence."

I don't think anyone in their right mind would expect you to feel guilty about a pregnancy resulting from date rape.

You were a victim.

Like it or not though...

People who have been in your position choose whether or not their unborn are/is victimized. They choose whether or not they get the medical attention they need to PREVENT pregnancy. They choose whether or not they allow someone else the opportunity to raise their unwanted child.

If you or anyone decided that abortion was the best option for you/them...fine. If it's legal, it's your right.

I don't have to support abortion.

To some people, it is not "unnecessary."

Even though people are intelligent people make mistakes or bad things happen to them- do people deserve to be punished for every mistake and every bad thing that happens to them?

There are consequences for action.

If a person can't deal with the consequences of sex...perhaps they should think before having sex. THIS IS MY POINT. You can't belly ache about the aftermath when you knowingly and willingly subjected yourself to it.

(I am NOT speaking about rape victims here...for the record.)

People CHOOSE to have sex. It's a choice. It's the responsibility of the individuals involved to make sure BEFORE they begin that they're ready to deal with ANY consequences that can occur. If this isn't contemplated PRIOR to sex...it is NOT the fault of the unborn that a pregnancy occurs...it's the fault of the two people involved.

To have sex...knowing that you aren't ready to take the responsibility for the consequences that could occur is negligent. It's careless behavior. Sexual intercourse solely for intimacy, recreation and/or pleasure is NOT a requirement...it's an elective act.

 

[Draka]

You wouldnt necessarily have a miscarriage if you were told the baby may not survive the pregnancy, think of the miracles when babys survive against the odds, and when doctors get things wrong!
That's where faith comes in handy, i guess.

You wouldn't necessarily have a miscarriage even if the "baby" doesn't survive. You can have an embryo that fails to thrive and dies and it not miscarry. At that point you have to have a D and C procedure...or...an abortion to be more clear. Abortion is a natural occurance for the most part, we simply call it a miscarriage when the body rids itself of the embryo. If we choose to clear the embryo out of our bodies though, it is an elective abortion.

So, when a high-risk pregnancy comes out well with the baby surviving it is because god wanted the baby to live? What about the ones who have healthy pregnancies and the baby is stillborn? Is that because god wanted the baby dead or wanted to make people suffer? If one thing is attributed to god then the other must be as well. Can it not be possible that there is just a bit of chance going on in this world?

 

[porkchop]

You wouldn't necessarily have a miscarriage even if the "baby" doesn't survive. You can have an embryo that fails to thrive and dies and it not miscarry. At that point you have to have a D and C procedure...or...an abortion to be more clear. Abortion is a natural occurance for the most part, we simply call it a miscarriage when the body rids itself of the embryo. If we choose to clear the embryo out of our bodies though, it is an elective abortion.

If the baby has already died inside the womb then i wouldnt call it an abortion, of course the women would have to have a procedure to have the baby removed then, that doesnt make it an abortion. You didnt decide to kill it.

So, when a high-risk pregnancy comes out well with the baby surviving it is because god wanted the baby to live? What about the ones who have healthy pregnancies and the baby is stillborn? Is that because god wanted the baby dead or wanted to make people suffer? If one thing is attributed to god then the other must be as well. Can it not be possible that there is just a bit of chance going on in this world?

I dont think it is because God wants one baby to die and one to survive. Death happens because sin entered the world and unfortunately some of us, babies included get illnesses and die, some before their time, some not, some good people, some bad. This world said they could do without God along time ago, so you can call it chance, fluke, luck, a blessing, a curse, whichever way you look at it, these things happen and will continue to; abortion is wrong, in Gods eyes it is murder.

 

[lombas]

I'm against abortion in general, but considering the fact it's a highly ethical question, the situation varies from individual to individual and circumstance to circumstance and the plain fact I'm a guy don't me support government interference.

Well, not that I support much government interference, but anyway.

 

[dawny0826]

dawny, I'm not saying this to offend you, but to make a point. Your views on women who have abortions really do hurt me too. You're not the only person who's affected by other people's beliefs. I don't think that gives me the privilege to make decisions for other people though. I know you're speaking from your heart and I respect that, but your words are pretty hurtful to me. I've never openly said what I think of abortion because I know how much it would hurt other people's feelings to hear it. Would it be that hard to at least acknowledge that all women who get abortions aren't irresponsible? A blanket statement really doesn't help your argument.

No offense taken, Danisty and truly, I meant no offense by my statements. I know this is a touchy subject and it seems sometimes that it's impossible not to step on toes.

For what it's worth...I DO respect you and I also respect others who have voiced different opinions than my own on this thread. And I appreciate you taking the time to explain why my comments hurt you.

It's hard for me to remain silent on this issue even if I do offend those that I care about and respect, although I truly hope that there will be no hard feelings.

With the exception of rape victims and those who require a therapeutic abortion...I can't help but to see a degree of negligence and irresponsibility even with those who do use contraception.

As I've stated before in this thread. Sex for intimacy, recreation and/or pleasure isn't mandatory. You choose whether or not you're going to engage in such activities. Pregnancy is a KNOWN consequence of sexual intercourse. If an individual knows that they are not financially, emotionally and/or physically capable of raising a child, it's their responsibility to take the appropriate measures to avoid conceiving...even if that measure means sacrifice on their part...ABSTINENCE. This goes for both individuals involved.

If you can't handle the possible consequences of sex...why are you having sex?

Is is not far less expensive to double/triple on your contraceptive measures as opposed to undergoing a medical procedure to eliminate an unwanted pregnancy? Is it so unheard of or wrong to simply wait to engage in sexual intercourse until you're really ready to deal with possible consequences?

To me, legalizing abortion isn't just about giving people choices...it's about giving the green light for people to engage in risky behavior that is damaging not only to themselves but damaging to the life inside of them, whether you consider that life to be worthless or not. I also believe that it can be damaging to others.

I don't want my children growing up believing that it's okay to have sex before they're ready to deal with the consequences. I don't want my children to even have abortion on the brain as a way out of an unwanted pregnancy.

I want for them to make wise decisions for themselves...decisions that are good for their bodies, their minds and their spirits. I truly hope that every man and woman take the time to consider the importance of engaging in behavior that is good for them.

I'm not saying people shouldn't have sex or shouldn't have the ability to make decisions for themselves...I just think that abortion is such an extreme and unfortunate measure...especially when pregnancy is avoidable.

I think education is so important. I think that instead of supporting abortion rights...society should work together to educate people, especially youth, on the importance of making wise decisions for themselves...even if that means using multiple contraceptive methods or abstaining from sex.

 

[Ðanisty]

No offense taken, Danisty and truly, I meant no offense by my statements. I know this is a touchy subject and it seems sometimes that it's impossible not to step on toes.

That's true and I expect some friction with these types of debates.

For what it's worth...I DO respect you and I also respect others who have voiced different opinions than my own on this thread. And I appreciate you taking the time to explain why my comments hurt you.

It's hard not to say things sometimes. I know I have to reel myself in a lot...lol. And there have been times in abortion debates where I've said things and realized later that I had gone too far. It's obvious this is a very important issue for both of us.

It's hard for me to remain silent on this issue even if I do offend those that I care about and respect, although I truly hope that there will be no hard feelings.

They are never any hard feelings. I think we've been through this before...lol.

With the exception of rape victims and those who require a therapeutic abortion...I can't help but to see a degree of negligence and irresponsibility even with those who do use contraception.

I wouldn't call it negligence. I would say that the world isn't perfect, things don't always go as planned, and life's not fair.

As I've stated before in this thread. Sex for intimacy, recreation and/or pleasure isn't mandatory. You choose whether or not you're going to engage in such activities. Pregnancy is a KNOWN consequence of sexual intercourse. If an individual knows that they are not financially, emotionally and/or physically capable of raising a child, it's their responsibility to take the appropriate measures to avoid conceiving...even if that measure means sacrifice on their part...ABSTINENCE. This goes for both individuals involved.

Dawny, I would like you to consider something that may be impossible for you to understand, but just try for a moment. Imagine being me. I never want children...ever. I get your whole concept of responsibility, but just think for a moment if you never wanted children. Would you really, honestly be satisfied with never having an intimate relationship with your husband?

If you can't handle the possible consequences of sex...why are you having sex?

I think I've said this before, but I'd better bring it up again. Abortion is a way of handling the consequences. It is not the ideal way, but it is taking responsibility. Not taking responsibility would be to just have a kid that you don't want and can't support.

Is is not far less expensive to double/triple on your contraceptive measures as opposed to undergoing a medical procedure to eliminate an unwanted pregnancy? Is it so unheard of or wrong to simply wait to engage in sexual intercourse until you're really ready to deal with possible consequences?

To address the first part, taking contraceptives is extremely important and I would like to hope that everyone who does not want to get pregnant would take some precautions. However, I'm not comfortable with those few who don't care, ruining the situation for all the others who were responsible and got pregnant accidentally. I addressed the second part earlier.

To me, legalizing abortion isn't just about giving people choices...it's about giving the green light for people to engage in risky behavior that is damaging not only to themselves but damaging to the life inside of them, whether you consider that life to be worthless or not. I also believe that it can be damaging to others.

I think education is the key, but it has to be true education with facts and not emotional sabotage.

I want for them to make wise decisions for themselves...decisions that are good for their bodies, their minds and their spirits. I truly hope that every man and woman take the time to consider the importance of engaging in behavior that is good for them.

Then please consider that there are circumstances in which abortion is the wisest possible decision for a woman's body, mind and spirit.


I think what hurts me the most about your comments is that you are basically saying I should live out my entire life never having sex because I happen to never want children. I deserve and intimate relationship with my husband too. Now, I am 28 years old and I haven't been pregnant. I have always used contraceptives and my husband desperately wants a vasectomy which he can't get because the doctors here insist on not performing a vasectomy until you've had a kid. It's not a legal thing but a moral thing they are pushing on us. Yet, if we get pregnant, there is another moral dilemma that is being pushed on us. We're damned if we do, damned if we don't. I would love more than anything to never get pregnant, but I know if I did, I would have an abortion (because this is something I've already thought about for the last 12 or 13 years). When you make these blanket statements, you are telling me that I should have to suffer through it and have a baby I've always known I didn't want because I'm somehow irresponsible. Why? Because I want to have sex with my husband?

I know this is a very passionate thing for you, but please consider that your audience is very diverse. I'm sure there's at least one member of RF that's had an abortion, maybe more. You don't know who they are (and obviously neither do I), but they know when they read your post that you're talking to them. I'm not asking you to change your view on this and I'm not asking you not to voice your opinion. That would be no good for debate and it wouldn't be fair. I just want you to know where the other side is coming from...not what our views on abortion are, because you already know that. I'm talking about what we go through...the feelings we have and how scary it is to us. I hope you understand what I'm saying and I'm not just rambling here.

 

[McBell]

I don't think anyone in their right mind would expect you to feel guilty about a pregnancy resulting from date rape.

You were a victim.

Like it or not though...

People who have been in your position choose whether or not their unborn are/is victimized. They choose whether or not they get the medical attention they need to PREVENT pregnancy. They choose whether or not they allow someone else the opportunity to raise their unwanted child.

If you or anyone decided that abortion was the best option for you/them...fine. If it's legal, it's your right.

I don't have to support abortion.



There are consequences for action.

If a person can't deal with the consequences of sex...perhaps they should think before having sex. THIS IS MY POINT. You can't belly ache about the aftermath when you knowingly and willingly subjected yourself to it.

(I am NOT speaking about rape victims here...for the record.)

People CHOOSE to have sex. It's a choice. It's the responsibility of the individuals involved to make sure BEFORE they begin that they're ready to deal with ANY consequences that can occur. If this isn't contemplated PRIOR to sex...it is NOT the fault of the unborn that a pregnancy occurs...it's the fault of the two people involved.

To have sex...knowing that you aren't ready to take the responsibility for the consequences that could occur is negligent. It's careless behavior. Sexual intercourse solely for intimacy, recreation and/or pleasure is NOT a requirement...it's an elective act.

This sounds to me as though you are taking the exception and presenting it as the rule.

What is the number one reason that the women who have had abortions got them?
To listen to your post it is merely because they are using abortion as birth control.
Now I believe that you are not intending to sound as thus, but you do.

 

[constantine]

NO. a woman should be able to get an abortion without feeling like a murderer. This is not murder. This is a medical procedure that is legal.

 

[Mathematician]

NO. a woman should be able to get an abortion without feeling like a murderer. This is not murder. This is a medical procedure that is legal.

Concerning this particular debate, constantine's last statement prevails. At this moment abortion is legal in our country, thus there is no legal reason for forcing a woman to recieve, and view, a sonogram. I'm against the death penalty, but I don't feel that we should guilt trip executioners by giving them a scrap book of the criminal's life, either.

 

[McBell]

Here is a link to a site with all manner of interesting information about the REASONS for abortion:
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html


An excerpt from this page:
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3429402.html

Approximately one-half of unintended pregnancies end in abortion.2 A substantial minority of women having abortions—42% in 1994-19953 and 49% in 19874—became pregnant because they and their partners were not using a contraceptive method. It is unknown, however, what proportion of pregnancies among method users were due to inconsistent or incorrect contraceptive use and what proportion were accounted for by method failure.​

 

[Ðanisty]

These are the only three reasons from those tables that I have a problem with:

woman's parents want her to have abortion
husband or partner wants her to have abortion
not using contraception

Even so, those reasons aren't enough to take away the right to choose for all of those other women.

 

[dawny0826]

They are never any hard feelings. I think we've been through this before...lol.

I'm glad.

I wouldn't call it negligence. I would say that the world isn't perfect, things don't always go as planned, and life's not fair.

You're right but there are things in life that we do have some control over.

get your whole concept of responsibility, but just think for a moment if you never wanted children. Would you really, honestly be satisfied with never having an intimate relationship with your husband?

Of course not and I wouldn't expect that many people would be satisfied not having intimate relations with their spouse. I have personally abstained from sex when it was not the opportune time to get pregnant. I'm not saying that I expect anyone else to do as such. I do practice what I preach, just for the record.

I think I've said this before, but I'd better bring it up again. Abortion is a way of handling the consequences. It is not the ideal way, but it is taking responsibility. Not taking responsibility would be to just have a kid that you don't want and can't support.

What of adoption?

There are two people in my life who are here because their mothers had second thoughts in aborting...one of whom is my husband.

Then please consider that there are circumstances in which abortion is the wisest possible decision for a woman's body, mind and spirit.

I can consider this but I don't know if I'll ever completely understand.

I think what hurts me the most about your comments is that you are basically saying I should live out my entire life never having sex because I happen to never want children. I deserve and intimate relationship with my husband too. Now, I am 28 years old and I haven't been pregnant. I have always used contraceptives and my husband desperately wants a vasectomy which he can't get because the doctors here insist on not performing a vasectomy until you've had a kid. It's not a legal thing but a moral thing they are pushing on us. Yet, if we get pregnant, there is another moral dilemma that is being pushed on us. We're damned if we do, damned if we don't. I would love more than anything to never get pregnant, but I know if I did, I would have an abortion (because this is something I've already thought about for the last 12 or 13 years). When you make these blanket statements, you are telling me that I should have to suffer through it and have a baby I've always known I didn't want because I'm somehow irresponsible. Why? Because I want to have sex with my husband?

You know what you want for yourself. You have to live for and by your own personal convictions.

I'm doing the same in my life. I don't know how to fully respond here and I certainly don't want to hurt you further. For what it's worth, if you or anyone on RF were faced with such a situation...I would not go out of my way to mistreat you even if I didn't agree or support what you choose to do. It's kind of like the whole "love the sinner/hate the sin" concept.

I don't know if that made any sense or not...but that's the truth.

I know this is a very passionate thing for you, but please consider that your audience is very diverse. I'm sure there's at least one member of RF that's had an abortion, maybe more. You don't know who they are (and obviously neither do I), but they know when they read your post that you're talking to them. I'm not asking you to change your view on this and I'm not asking you not to voice your opinion. That would be no good for debate and it wouldn't be fair. I just want you to know where the other side is coming from...not what our views on abortion are, because you already know that. I'm talking about what we go through...the feelings we have and how scary it is to us. I hope you understand what I'm saying and I'm not just rambling here.

You're certainly not rambling and I do understand what you're saying. Often times, I wish I could step out of my own box and experience life from the standpoint of others.

Abortion is something that I can't accept but I CAN make an effort to be more sensitive to the thoughts and feelings of those who are faced with it. Though I'm sure with this topic, I have been guilty of frustrating and hurting others...I wouldn't engage in these debates if I didn't gain new perspective.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I would be interested in the number of women who regretted having an abortion.

 

[UnityNow101]

Anything that would stop the killing of an innocent is a good thing. To me, once the heart begins beating it is life, period. I think that it is is wrong for people to say that it is only used as a tool to illicite emotion. Of course it would. But if that saves a life, then what wrong is there in that. If people would see the ravages of war and the damage that it takes on human life maybe less people would be able to stand it and would fight for its demise. The same could be said of an abortion.

 

[Ðanisty]

What of adoption?

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I'm not going to put my body through that for nothing and honestly that's how I see it. For me, it's not just about raising a child...I don't want to be pregnant. The very thought of it is terrifying and sickening to me. I would be seriously traumatized (mentally and emotionally) if I had to give birth.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I'm not going to put my body through that for nothing and honestly that's how I see it. For me, it's not just about raising a child...I don't want to be pregnant. The very thought of it is terrifying and sickening to me. I would be seriously traumatized (mentally and emotionally) if I had to give birth.

I'm glad your mother did not feel that way. Please don't think I am picking on you. At least you know your not ready to be a Mother. Not all parents were ready, but many of them did a pretty good job anyway. You may change your mind later on, or perhaps you never will, time will tell. Some how I don't think you will have to face a situation like this. Someone who feels that strongly usually takes precautions.

 

[Ðanisty]

I'm glad your mother did not feel that way.

My mother gave birth to all three of us without any pain medication...lol. Honestly, though, it really doesn't bother me Rick. If my mother had never had me, then I wouldn't know any different!

Please don't think I am picking on you. At least you know your not ready to be a Mother. Not all parents were ready, but many of them did a pretty good job anyway. You may change your mind later on, or perhaps you never will, time will tell. Some how I don't think you will have to face a situation like this. Someone who feels that strongly usually takes precautions.

Of course I take precautions. The fact of the matter is though that even with precautions, I could get pregnant.

 

[lilithu]

I'm glad your mother did not feel that way. Please don't think I am picking on you. At least you know your not ready to be a Mother. Not all parents were ready, but many of them did a pretty good job anyway. You may change your mind later on, or perhaps you never will, time will tell. Some how I don't think you will have to face a situation like this. Someone who feels that strongly usually takes precautions.

Careful Rick. It's one thing to talk about one's own stance on abortion and why and another to start talking about other people and their mothers.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Careful Rick. It's one thing to talk about one's own stance on abortion and why and another to start talking about other people and their mothers.

I would hope that after we debate for some time, that people would understand intent a little better. I feel close to you and Danisty. I hope you have formed an opinion of me that understands that I have love and compassion for every person on this planet.

Danisty and I are polar opposites, I am fascinated by this fact. The more we debate, the closer I feel towards her. I would never want to insult her. I hope we can get past picking on each other line by line and word by word.

I believe some of your opinions will rub off on me or at least give me a better understanding of them. You never know, some of me might just rub off on you as well. I like a good natured debate, not a hateful one. When I get personal, I try to provoke thought, not insult.

I believe when you make personal insults in a debate, you should be declared the loser.