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Should a woman's bodily autonomy be disregarded when it comes to pregnancy?

arthra

Baha'i
I don't think as Baha'is that we have any specific legislative recommendations.. Medical science seems to be evolving. At present for Baha'is the mother in consultation with her physician are the prime entities involved in the decision process. The mother to be guided by her conscience. Abortion for convenience is forbidden to Baha'is.

The following site is a resource available to Baha'is:

Lights of Guidance/Birth Control - Bahaitext, a library of books about the Bahá’í Faith
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I don't think as Baha'is that we have any specific legislative recommendations.. Medical science seems to be evolving. At present for Baha'is the mother in consultation with her physician are the prime entities involved in the decision process. The mother to be guided by her conscience. Abortion for convenience is forbidden to Baha'is.

The following site is a resource available to Baha'is:

Lights of Guidance/Birth Control - Bahaitext, a library of books about the Bahá’í Faith

Maybe he disagrees with the Bahaai about this. I would ask before making assumptions about another's beliefs. We are all different.
 

arthra

Baha'i
Thanks for your comment Winston!

Yes of course everyone has their views.. I'm only stating the Baha'i view which applies only to Baha'is.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
. When one destroys human life, they destroy a child of the almighty God and will be held accountable, a bar of judgment to feared infinitely more than any earthly tribunal.
God is hurt and angered by (as the Virgin Mary once put it) "our shameless immorality and our foul ingratitude." We, as a nation, shall pay a very heavy price for all this and no doubt we already are.

I don't know either of you so please don't take this personally. Most people who call themselves pro life are not even close. They are anti abortion which is not the same at all.
I usually avoid getting much involved in abortion threads. My pro life views tend to bring on a bunch of strawman and poo flinging.
But I would be infuriated by the hypocrisy of most pro life people if I hadn't gotten used to it years ago.
They get all wrought up about this one form of people choosing death for other people. But when it comes to capital punishment or preemptive war or fiscal policy or environmental responsibility they are unusually pro death. Don't even get me started on psychological abuse of gay youth.

Tom
 
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thau

Well-Known Member
Yes, absolutely. Joan of Arc and Padre Pio based their works on faith in God. I'm sure they thought they "knew" in the way that you describe, but, by the definition of the terms, they were merely confident in their faith.

And, yes, we are free to have faith in what we believe. There are arguments on either side of every relgion with merit, but it is up to the individual to figure out what they think or believe to be true.

Well, sorry but you and I are not in agreement on some very basic and important measures.

You apparently think no one has had direct contact with the Lord. You also apparently think that miracles or divine manifestations from God never happened or cannot be discerned the nature of them?

After all, that is the kind of evidence atheists and agnostics demand, yet when presented so often brushed aside.

No, it is not faith for me. It is the gift of revelation. I only wish others were more open to it. (And, no, I am not calling you personally an atheist, nor an agnostic, I am just responding to your comments in a way I see fitting.)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From the Brothers Karamazov

Alexei (to his atheist brother): “I feel sorry for you, Ivan.”

Ivan: “Why is that?”

Alexei: “Because you want to believe there is a God, but you cannot.“
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Well, sorry but you and I are not in agreement on some very basic and important measures.

You apparently think no one has had direct contact with the Lord. You also apparently think that miracles or divine manifestations from God never happened or cannot be discerned the nature of them?

After all, that is the kind of evidence atheists and agnostics demand, yet when presented so often brushed aside.

No, it is not faith for me. It is the gift of revelation. I only wish others were more open to it. (And, no, I am not calling you personally an atheist, nor an agnostic, I am just responding to your comments in a way I see fitting.)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From the Brothers Karamazov

Alexei (to his atheist brother): “I feel sorry for you, Ivan.”

Ivan: “Why is that?”

Alexei: “Because you want to believe there is a God, but you cannot.“
I believe people have had connections with God, but not one of them have been able to prove this using objective measures. Personal interaction with God would not prove anything to anyone except for the person having it. And, I also wholeheartedly believe that faith is an important aspect of religion. If we were able to "know" that God existed, it would be too easy. The everpresent doubt is what gives faith meaning, imho.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
I don't know either of you so please don't take this personally. Most people who call themselves pro life are not even close. They are anti abortion which is not the same at all.
I usually avoid getting much involved in abortion threads. My pro life views tend to bring on a bunch of strawman and poo flinging.
But I would be infuriated by the hypocrisy of most pro life people if I hadn't gotten used to it years ago.
They get all wrought up about this one form of people choosing death for other people. But when it comes to capital punishment or preemptive war or fiscal policy or environmental responsibility they are unusually pro death. Don't even get me started on psychological abuse of gay youth.

Tom
So in other words you consider yourself to be more "pro life" than those who want to make abortion illegal.

Ok. So much for terms having any meaning.

Maybe you understand "gay youth" better than we do. Maybe we understand God better? Just a thought.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Oh, just to be clear, I am not discussing "atonomy" in general, but "bodily autonomy" specifically. Only the physical, direct use of another's body without their permission or the due process of law is at issue here. The Government cannot infringe on "bodily autonomy" in the way you describe. "Autonomy", obiously, is a different matter.

It may be a different matter, but not separate -the matters are intermingled. Bodily autonomy may be the issue here, but as it relates to autonomy.

I disagree with the idea that government cannot infringe upon bodily autonomy (and it often does -whether it has the right to or not).

If a born child's mother's milk was the only available food source because they were isolated somehow -and the mother refused to feed the child because she had bodily autonomy and the child did not -then the matter became known -is that outside the realm of what government should consider or act upon? They might have difficulty infringing upon the bodily autonomy of the mother directly by forcing her to feed the child -but they are likely to act in some way due to neglect of the child -such as possibly moving the child's body elsewhere and putting her body in the pokey.

If the mother had all sorts of food other than breast milk -but did not feed the child because, by her bodily autonomy, she decided to be elsewhere doing otherwise while the non-bodily-autonomous child was left to whatever became of it, is that all kinds of OK? Can the government infringe upon that situation?

If zygote or gestationally-young fetus can be called a human zygote or gestationally-young fetus, could not a miscarriage seem like an abortion by some means -or neglect and/or deliberate action to cause a miscarriage -and be subject to doubt as to which it actually was -leading to arrest on suspicion of something which was against the law?

Should the law be based on bodily autonomy.... -or location, perhaps? A newborn does not have bodily autonomy -but how far back up in there does it begin to have rights -and when do others become responsible or possibly guilty of neglect or harm?
If it is neglected or harmed after it sees daylight -is that wrong? Is it OK before it sees daylight at some point?

If one who is left unharmed and is not neglected will continue on the already-initialized path toward human bodily autonomy -which does not truly begin with their birth -are they not human?

If one happens upon a child whose mother, by her bodily autonomy, is elsewhere doing otherwise, do even they truly have the basic right to leave that child to whatever might befall it -regardless of human laws which may or may not be in effect?

The child does not have bodily autonomy, but does that make the issue a non-issue which is not up for consideration? Are we to say a human which does not have bodily autonomy is a non-issue -not up for consideration?

People who are incapacitated do not have bodily autonomy -and the law does not necessarily hold those responsible who do not render aid -but is human society as whole not responsible to provide someone to render aid?
 
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leibowde84

Veteran Member
It may be a different matter, but not separate -the matters are intermingled. Bodily autonomy may be the issue here, but as it relates to autonomy.

I disagree with the idea that government cannot infringe upon bodily autonomy (and it often does -whether it has the right to or not).

If a born child's mother's milk was the only available food source because they were isolated somehow -and the mother refused to feed the child because she had bodily autonomy and the child did not -then the matter became known -is that outside the realm of what government should consider or act upon? They might have difficulty infringing upon the bodily autonomy of the mother directly by forcing her to feed the child -but they are likely to act in some way due to neglect of the child -such as possibly moving the child's body elsewhere and putting her body in the pokey.

If the mother had all sorts of food other than breast milk -but did not feed the child because, by her bodily autonomy, she decided to be elsewhere doing otherwise while the non-bodily-autonomous child was left to whatever became of it, is that all kinds of OK? Can the government infringe upon that situation?

If zygote or gestationally-young fetus can be called a human zygote or gestationally-young fetus, could not a miscarriage seem like an abortion by some means -or neglect and/or deliberate action to cause a miscarriage -and be subject to doubt as to which it actually was -leading to arrest on suspicion of something which was against the law?

Should the law be based on bodily autonomy.... -or location, perhaps? A newborn does not have bodily autonomy -but how far back up in there does it begin to have rights -and when do others become responsible or possibly guilty of neglect or harm?
If it is neglected or harmed after it sees daylight -is that wrong? Is it OK before it sees daylight at some point?

If one who is left unharmed and is not neglected will continue on the already-initialized path toward human bodily autonomy -which does not truly begin with their birth -are they not human?

If one happens upon a child whose mother, by her bodily autonomy, is elsewhere doing otherwise, do even they truly have the basic right to leave that child to whatever might befall it -regardless of human laws which may or may not be in effect?

The child does not have bodily autonomy, but does that make the issue a non-issue which is not up for consideration? Are we to say a human which does not have bodily autonomy is a non-issue -not up for consideration?

People who are incapacitated do not have bodily autonomy -and the law does not necessarily hold those responsible who do not render aid -but is human society as whole not responsible to provide someone to render aid?

A fetus is not USING a mother's body to survive. Somebody USED the mother's body to cause a fetus.
Your example is outside the scope of this conversation, because, once the fetus exits the mother's body, it's bodily autonomy would be at issue, as it would have achieved viability. Only an example where the baby is still physically connected to and dependant on the mother would bring up bodily autonomy. Nutrients, financial support, housing, etc. do not bring up issues of bodily autonomy, which is an extremely specific term for this reasson.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
The legal issue (and it is most certainly a legal question) is whether the fetus' right to live and use the mother's body to do so outweighs the woman's right to bodily autonomy.

I'd say if we want to imprison a woman for discarding a fetus, we can equalize the gender responsibility: imprison a man for wasting any amount of seed.
 
Further, I agree that life begins (in a way) at conception. It's hard to argue that a living human fetus isn't "alive" or "human." But, again, legally speaking, "personhood" is the point where rights are acknowledged, not the point when life begins. Personhood seems to be rightly defined as when the fetus becomes viable outside the womb.
So, you it sounds like you are strongly in favor of turning the United States into a Theocracy. Is that correct?

In this world, only if it were Christ himself
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Your example is outside the scope of this conversation, because, once the fetus exits the mother's body, it's bodily autonomy would be at issue, as it would have achieved viability. Only an example where the baby is still physically connected to and dependant on the mother would bring up bodily autonomy. Nutrients, financial support, housing, etc. do not bring up issues of bodily autonomy, which is an extremely specific term for this reasson.
Horsepucky
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
You have nothing to go on but my comments on a religous debate website. So, how on earth could you feel that you have substantial knowledge or insight to make a conclusion about my faith. How could you begin to "help me with my faith" if you don't even have any information as to what I believe? Just don't assume so much and you'll be fine.
I know plenty but the only thing I need to know was in your reaction the Christ's demand that we be born again. Being born again is the starting point for faith. It is our introduction to Christ. Anything else is standing around outside the building wanting to debate what is in it. It is impossible to explain to someone who has never been in love what it feels like and what is true of it. Christ calls himself the door. To enter the pasture and see what it is actually you must enter through him by being born again. Your instant denial that this concept that hundreds of millions have had and tens of thousands of books are written on tells me you have never been through that door and to discuss what it is a place you have not been is pointless. That is why I have been trying to either step by step give you the best conclusions of scholarship that will eventually show an extreme reliability to the born again verses or get out of the conversation. You might as well be at base camp and when I come down from the summit of Everest tell me no summit exists.

That is not to say I am in any way better than you, you may even be my moral superior. I just happen to have been in a position in my life that I followed the Gospel road map until I actually found what it led to. You are simply debating the details of the map, and perhaps following secondary details it lays out but you object to even the existence of the treasure at the end so you have no idea what it is or is like. Without that treasure the map is almost meaningless.

I don't worry too much about what doctrinal beliefs anyone has except for two. We can haggle over transubstantiation, predestination, infant baptism, or musical instruments in church but they mean virtually nothing compared to salvation. Unless you believe and have been born again you have not found what the entire bible was put forth to lead us to, that is the first one, the second one is what is gained by grace is not maintained by merit. However the second one is only relevant if the first is granted. I don't care of you follow every law in the bible, have read the whole thing 20 times over, can speak Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek.........if you have not been born again you have missed the entire point. You deny that concept even exists so what exactly is there to debate? The only avenue left was the long and tedious step by step establishment of what textual reliability the bible has and you will not by any means I can employ go through with it, so again what debate is even possible? I don't want to or need to know what jot a tittle you agree with or not, but if you deny the born again experience you have missed the whole boat. What is there left to say?
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I know plenty but the only thing I need to know was in your reaction the Christ's demand that we be born again. Being born again is the starting point for faith. It is our introduction to Christ. Anything else is standing around outside the building wanting to debate what is in it. It is impossible to explain to someone who has never been in love what it feels like and what is true of it. Christ calls himself the door. To enter the pasture and see what it is actually you must enter through him by being born again. Your instant denial that this concept that hundreds of millions have had and tens of thousands of books are written on tells me you have never been through that door and to discuss what it is a place you have not been is pointless. That is why I have been trying to either step by step give you the best conclusions of scholarship that will eventually show an extreme reliability to the born again verses or get out of the conversation. You might as well be at base camp and when I come down from the summit of Everest tell me no summit exists.

That is not to say I am in any way better than you, you may even be my moral superior. I just happen to have been in a position in my life that I followed the Gospel road map until I actually found what it led to. You are simply debating the details of the map, and perhaps following secondary details it lays out but you object to even the existence of the treasure at the end so you have no idea what it is or is like. Without that treasure the map is almost meaningless.

I don't worry too much about what doctrinal beliefs anyone has except for two. We can haggle over transubstantiation, predestination, infant baptism, or musical instruments in church but they mean virtually nothing compared to salvation. Unless you believe and have been born again you have not found what the entire bible was put forth to lead us to, that is the first one, the second one is what is gained by grace is not maintained by merit. However the second one is only relevant if the first is granted. I don't care of you follow every law in the bible, have read the whole thing 20 times over, can speak Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek.........if you have not been born again you have missed the entire point. You deny that concept even exists so what exactly is there to debate? The only avenue left was the long and tedious step by step establishment of what textual reliability the bible has and you will not by any means I can employ go through with it, so again what debate is even possible? I don't want to or need to know what jot a tittle you agree with or not, but if you deny the born again experience you have missed the whole boat. What is there left to say?
How do you know that I haven't been "born again?"
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
So in other words you consider yourself to be more "pro life" than those who want to make abortion illegal.

Ok. So much for terms having any meaning.
I do not know you so I can't say. But I do think that the word Prolife is abused by people.
Simply making all abortion illegal is a dreadfully pro death policy. And there are lots of other ways people choose death for others because it is convenient for them. The USA thirst for cheap and reliable petroleum products has been a huge cause.

Tom
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
How do you know that I haven't been "born again?"
Because you almost revolted at the mere concept when I quoted Christ's discussion of it and you have been bristling with rejection of the concept every time I bring it up. There are about a hundred other subtle reasons that a person who has been born again for decades has learned to detect. I used to play a game by talking to a person a few times and then guessing whether they were a Christian or not and after talking a little more with them if they were guessing whether they were actually born again or not. I would eventually ask them about their faith in a casual way. I ran about an 85% success rate. That was a few years ago and I bet I would be at about a 90% success rate if I did so now. Regardless I treated them all exactly the same except for the fact that the born again group knew more theological stuff and was more certain about it than the other groups, the nominal Christian knew theological stuff the non-theist didn't, and the non-theists knew little theology. I seldom turn out disappointed in my Christian status estimations once I talk to a person for a while.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Because you almost revolted at the mere concept when I quoted Christ's discussion of it and you have been bristling with rejection of the concept every time I bring it up. There are about a hundred other subtle reasons that a person who has been born again for decades has learned to detect. I used to play a game by talking to a person a few times and then guessing whether they were a Christian or not and after talking a little more with them if they were guessing whether they were actually born again or not. I would eventually ask them about their faith in a casual way. I ran about an 85% success rate. That was a few years ago and I bet I would be at about a 90% success rate if I did so now. Regardless I treated them all exactly the same except for the fact that the born again group knew more theological stuff and was more certain about it than the other groups, the nominal Christian knew theological stuff the non-theist didn't, and the non-theists knew little theology. I seldom turn out disappointed in my Christian status estimations once I talk to a person for a while.
Well, I would suggest doing a bit more evaluation of this assumption, as your reasons don't make too much sense. It is almost as if you think that a Christian should not be able to challenge the history/doctrine of their own religion, or, at the very least, this act somehow makes them less devout. Nothing could be further from the truth, and I would strongly argue that those who do not participate in this practice are worse off in terms of their faith's strength. Just my opinion on the subject.
 
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