Should a woman's bodily autonomy be disregarded when it comes to pregnancy?

[1robin]

Well, I would suggest doing a bit more evaluation of this assumption, as your reasons don't make too much sense. It is almost as if you think that a Christian should not be able to challenge the history/doctrine of their own religion, or, at the very least, this act somehow makes them less devout. Nothing could be further from the truth, and I would strongly argue that those who do not participate in this practice are worse off in terms of their faith's strength. Just my opinion on the subject.

The reasons I gave are sufficient for anyone who has been born again. However lets let that go and see what else you had to say.

I have already told you I am open to the possibility of being wrong, history being wrong, the bible getting it wrong, any denomination getting it wrong on any subject, and my being wrong on any except two. Those two I spent three years studying obsessively, for some very unique circumstances I literally had to know the truth of the born again experience and that salvation gained by grace is not maintained by merit. You could ask anyone who knew me during those years. I threw the VCR in the lake at my apartment and turned off the cable. I got up and started studying, went to work, came home, and grabbed books and a hunting stool every day it wasn't raining and took an armload of books and studied, if it was raining I studied inside, then I ate, then I studied until I feel asleep. I will not go into why, but I literally had to know those two things as facts. I spent hours in the floor praying about them, I dialogued with Christians on their experiences, I literally interviewed dozens of ministers, I looked at the mainstream creeds, I even had miracles occur concerning these questions and every single thing I felt, I read, I heard, and got directly from God was the same thing over and over. You must be born again and salvation is by grace and grace alone. Those two subjects I go into any debate knowing the truth of as well as the truth of anything can be known, any and every other subject I go in thinking I have good reasons for my position but all the rest are debatable. So in 99% of the cases what you said of me is not true.

Lastly the strength of faith is a perilous subject. Muslims flying into buildings killing themselves probably have pretty strong faith. The Jews refused to sign the Caesar's decree that they worship him as a God in such numbers that Pilate's successor wrote Rome that if they did not stop killing Jews for not signing the decree there would be no Jews left to sign anything. They had pretty strong faith. However I have learned it is the strength of God's promise that trumps them all. Even if my faith fails or weakens his promise will not. In fact the Holy Spirit is called the guranteur of our salvation. You do not get the Holy Spirit until your born again. After that it is the strength of God's promise that will save me not the strength of my faith. Once born again the transaction is final, the bible says our salvation is sealed by God at that moment. It is he who is the author of my faith.

 

[leibowde84]

The reasons I gave are sufficient for anyone who has been born again. However lets let that go and see what else you had to say.

I have already told you I am open to the possibility of being wrong, history being wrong, the bible getting it wrong, any denomination getting it wrong on any subject, and my being wrong on any except two. Those two I spent three years studying obsessively, for some very unique circumstances I literally had to know the truth of the born again experience and that salvation gained by grace is not maintained by merit. You could ask anyone who knew me during those years. I threw the VCR in the lake at my apartment and turned off the cable. I got up and started studying, went to work, came home, and grabbed books and a hunting stool every day it wasn't raining and took an armload of books and studied, if it was raining I studied inside, then I ate, then I studied until I feel asleep. I will not go into why, but I literally had to know those two things as facts. I spent hours in the floor praying about them, I dialogued with Christians on their experiences, I literally interviewed dozens of ministers, I looked at the mainstream creeds, I even had miracles occur concerning these questions and every single thing I felt, I read, I heard, and got directly from God was the same thing over and over. You must be born again and salvation is by grace and grace alone. Those two subjects I go into any debate knowing the truth of as well as the truth of anything can be known, any and every other subject I go in thinking I have good reasons for my position but all the rest are debatable. So in 99% of the cases what you said of me is not true.

Lastly the strength of faith is a perilous subject. Muslims flying into buildings killing themselves probably have pretty strong faith. The Jews refused to sign the Caesar's decree that they worship him as a God in such numbers that Pilate's successor wrote Rome that if they did not stop killing Jews for not signing the decree there would be no Jews left to sign anything. They had pretty strong faith. However I have learned it is the strength of God's promise that trumps them all. Even if my faith fails or weakens his promise will not. In fact the Holy Spirit is called the guranteur of our salvation. You do not get the Holy Spirit until your born again. After that it is the strength of God's promise that will save me not the strength of my faith. Once born again the transaction is final, the bible says our salvation is sealed by God at that moment. It is he who is the author of my faith.

My question is, if you really are admittedly making major assumptions about my beliefs and "could be wrong," why on earth would you make a judgment about me in the first place? I don't get it. You have made personal claims about my beliefs when I have not done the same. In other words, where do you get off judging me with radically insufficient information?

 

[1robin]

My question is, if you really are admittedly making major assumptions about my beliefs and "could be wrong," why on earth would you make a judgment about me in the first place? I don't get it. You have made personal claims about my beliefs when I have not done the same. In other words, where do you get off judging me with radically insufficient information?

Because in personal relationships like a conversation your world view will determine what you know and therefor what common ground we can build an argument on. I treat people equally but not in all respects. I can't have the same discussion with a naturalist, a materialist, an agnostic, an hard atheist, an superficial Christian, a born again Christian, a Muslim, a Sikh, a Baha'i, a Hindu, etc....... I have to tailor my comments based on what they know and what their world view is. Believe me with experience the amount of information necessary to make highly accurate judgments is not that large (as I have told you I have even tested my ability to do this over the years and am pretty accurate). And the specific comments you made are the most telling in this context. Besides I do not care what you think about my faith because I am secure in it, why do you care about what I think so much? It ultimately is between you and God, not me and you, I am just using it to tailor my comments to you. BTW I am not making major assumptions, I am making a minor deduction.

 

[leibowde84]

Because in personal relationships like a conversation your world view will determine what you know and therefor what common ground we can build an argument on. I treat people equally but not in all respects. I can't have the same discussion with a naturalist, a materialist, an agnostic, an hard atheist, an superficial Christian, a born again Christian, a Muslim, a Sikh, a Baha'i, a Hindu, etc....... I have to tailor my comments based on what they know and what their world view is. Believe me with experience the amount of information necessary to make highly accurate judgments is not that large (as I have told you I have even tested my ability to do this over the years and am pretty accurate). And the specific comments you made are the most telling in this context. Besides I do not care what you think about my faith because I am secure in it, why do you care about what I think so much? It ultimately is between you and God, not me and you, I am just using it to tailor my comments to you. BTW I am not making major assumptions, I am making a minor deduction.

So, you actually think you saying "Believe me with experience the amount of information necessary to make highly accurate judgments is not that large," and "I have even tested my abiity to do this over the years and I am pretty accurate" actually provides ammunition for your arguments. Those are nothing but subjective assessments of your own skills ... not too useful in any kind of objective standard. And, from my experience with you on this, you are dead wrong in this assessment, but, again, that's just the small amount of experience I have with your judgments on this site. You make a lot of assumptions that may or may not be true, and you seem to think that a person's religious classification says a lot more about a person's character than it actually does.

 

[leibowde84]

Because in personal relationships like a conversation your world view will determine what you know and therefor what common ground we can build an argument on. I treat people equally but not in all respects. I can't have the same discussion with a naturalist, a materialist, an agnostic, an hard atheist, an superficial Christian, a born again Christian, a Muslim, a Sikh, a Baha'i, a Hindu, etc....... I have to tailor my comments based on what they know and what their world view is. Believe me with experience the amount of information necessary to make highly accurate judgments is not that large (as I have told you I have even tested my ability to do this over the years and am pretty accurate). And the specific comments you made are the most telling in this context. Besides I do not care what you think about my faith because I am secure in it, why do you care about what I think so much? It ultimately is between you and God, not me and you, I am just using it to tailor my comments to you. BTW I am not making major assumptions, I am making a minor deduction.

My argument is this ... you are in no place to think you can know people's personal beliefs simply by their comments in a debate forum. The fact that you attribute this "skill" to being "born again" in Christianity is frustrating, as it clearly seems like you consider yourself better off than others simply because you BELIEVE that you understand God better than those that disagree with you about faith. I'm sorry, but that is a clear indication that your understanding of religious debate and worth is severely flawed.

You merely CLAIMING to have "tested" your ability is almost a slap in the face and does absolutely nothing to convince anyone. So, can you please provide some kind of actual proof instead of just "take my word for it."

 

[1robin]

So, you actually think you saying "Believe me with experience the amount of information necessary to make highly accurate judgments is not that large," and "I have even tested my abiity to do this over the years and I am pretty accurate" actually provides ammunition for your arguments.

Nope just telling you why I have confidence in my conclusions.

Those are nothing but subjective assessments of your own skills ... not too useful in any kind of objective standard. And, from my experience with you on this, you are dead wrong in this assessment, but, again, that's just the small amount of experience I have with your judgments on this site. You make a lot of assumptions that may or may not be true, and you seem to think that a person's religious classification says a lot more about a person's character than it actually does.

I have actually said the exact opposite. I have over and over again specifically said this is not a moral issue, that you may be more moral than I. Why is it your so concerned with my conclusion? If you secure in your faith, and know you have found the Lord why would you care so much about my opinion? And why all this sudden indignation, you had been handling my conclusion without too much emotion until now. What changed? I won't be there to judge you in the end, if you have confidence in your faith then just ignore what I think.

 

[1robin]

My argument is this ... you are in no place to think you can know people's personal beliefs simply by their comments in a debate forum. The fact that you attribute this "skill" to being "born again" in Christianity is frustrating, as it clearly seems like you consider yourself better off than others simply because you BELIEVE that you understand God better than those that disagree with you about faith. I'm sorry, but that is a clear indication that your understanding of religious debate and worth is severely flawed.

You merely CLAIMING to have "tested" your ability is almost a slap in the face and does absolutely nothing to convince anyone. So, can you please provide some kind of actual proof instead of just "take my word for it."

Your getting far to upset about this for me to perpetuate it any further. Take a break from this issue for a while, a nap would probably help.