Should Believers Avoid and Fear Athiest?

[GadFly]

log·ic /ˈlɒdʒ

ɪk/[loj-ik] 1.the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference. 2.a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: We were unable to follow his logic. 3.the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study. 4.reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn't much logic in her move. 5.convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness: the irresistible logic of the facts.


Scientific Method n. a method of research in which a problem is identified, relevant data are gathered, a hypothesis is formulated from these data, and the hypothesis is empirically tested. The principles and empirical processes of discovery and demonstration considered characteristic of or necessary for scientific investigation, generally involving the observation of phenomena, the formulation of a hypothesis concerning the phenomena, experimentation to demonstrate the truth or falseness of the hypothesis, and a conclusion that validates or modifies the hypothesis.


Now you know. Good day, sir.

I don't know if anybody noticed this reply to the GadFly's philosophy on logic, but the atheist who lecture me on my definition of logic supports my contention; it certainly does not conflict with anything I have said. Please atheist, attack my logic not me. You show your misinterpretation of everything you touch in your extreme effort to prove you are reasonable people. I did not know the bite of the GadFly hurt so badly that you had to turn lobic on it head. None of you have as yet to successfully debunk anything I have said. Saying my stuff is bunk is far from showing it is bunk. Try harder.
GadFly

 

[Michel07]

Why would a believer fear an atheist? I think an atheist would have more reasons to fear the believers. Thank goodness our country was founded on the idea that church and state should be separate. If laws were made based on the Christian Bible, our society might resemble the Taliban. Have you read the Old Testament? There's a lot of scary stuff in there. Have you read Leviticus? And the laws that we criticize the Extremist Muslims for (stoning women to death in public for adultry or for being raped; not allowing women to speak in church, punishing men for the length of their beard, etc.) are all outlined in our bible as well (Deuteronomy 22 for example). Thank goodness most believers in this country ignore most of God's word in the Bible and just choose to believe in the good/easy stuff .

You cannot compare something like Sharia Law to Christian teachings because the laws of the land were based on Christian teaching and they are totally different.

 

[yossarian22]

You are welcome to explain your non-fallacies ideas. For example, what is the universe like without God?:bow:

The universe.
What is the universe with God?
The universe.
A useless, fallacious question gets nothing but a useless answer.

The tool you seem to favor is the delusion of your own intellect. There is no logical basis for atheism.

Occam's Razor.

 

[yossarian22]

Do you not accept the existence of the scientific method as a proof of God?

No, I accept the existence of the scientific method as proof of mind.

 

[Michel07]

Nope, I'm saying the believe more blindly than atheists, disregarding evidence that opposes their beliefs.

Where is all this evidence ? Opinions and perceptions are not evidence.

 

[Magic Man]

There is no logical basis for atheism.

What is it with you guys and this statement? I find it extremely hard to believe that you're that blind that you can't see logic. Here it is: There was a big bang. Something probably set it off. What that something was we don't know yet, but there's no reason to believe that it was intelligent. Once the Big Bang happened, the primal forces of the universe took over and formed clouds of gas, which then formed stars, planets, moons and all other celestial bodies. Some of these planets, or at least one, Earth, evolved to the point of being able to support life. This life started as single-celled "creatures", eventually evolving into anything from bacteria to humans. Humans went through thousands of years of evolution, during which we became conscious of ourselves, and learned to master the world which we inhabitted. Any advances we have made have been the product of human reasoning and intellect. At some point, for reasons that will never be known for sure, humans came up with the idea that there was intelligent life other than ourselves that controlled the world in which we lived. This idea evolved into religion. Religion became a source of comfort and safety as well as a method for controlling groups of people. Since a large portion of humans like to be told what to do, so that they don't have to think for themselves, they believed what the people in charge told them, eventually leading to the situation religion is in today. There has never been any evidence saying that any of the steps in this process couldn't be accomplished without an intelligent life form above us. So, until there is evidence that specifically tells us that our universe could not have been started or have evolved the way it did unless there was some intelligent force, what theists would call "God", I will not believe that there is one.

Your arguments seem to be that this universe could not exist without an inteligent creator. Science, which is and always has been more reliable than religion, tells us that there are things like our existence as we are now, that are statistically extremely improbable that have happened just as a fluke. Just because something is extremely unlikely to happen given the circumstances doesn't mean it can't happen randomly. People who win the lottery have a 1 in 20 million chance of winning, or some huge number like that, and yet, someone always wins by dumb luck.

I know this was a waste of time because you won't see the logic in it, as logic apparently means somethnig completely different to you than it does most of the world. However, I felt it neede to be said, and I'll take that 1 in 20 million chance that at least some part of this gets through to you.

 

[GadFly]

Gadfly......

What is it that you really want to know from us?

The definition Father Heathen gave was spot on. It is what it is. He wasn't responsible for the definition. You seem to challenge what we perceive as logic. The same logical process we ALL use....you use (you use in the practical real world sense). There are plenty of doctors, scientist etc. who are theist but use the same methods we have been sharing with you.

When one catches a cold the only thing they can think about is getting rid of the cold. They go to the store walking the isles reading bottles of medicine hoping it will match their symptoms. They find one, read the ingredients and the directions and they buy it. From start to finish (the store shelf) that medicine went through the scientific process. The sick person used the scientific process selecting the proper medicine for his or her symptoms. We don't just let people create medicine then bring it to market. It goes through extensive testing and scrutany and complience checks before it can be sold.

The methods in starting a car, (Stick or manual) are well known because they have been tested and are known to work. The next time you are in a car use the scientific method and change it up by not stepping on the break and turning the key but try to put the car in gear. You will notice it won't work. The "logical" way to do this effectively is to do what is tried and true.

Here's an easier one. How can I find out what water is made of? Do I have faith and hope a god will reveal it to me? Do I pray and hope a spirit will guide me to the answers I seek? Can it be found in your bible? OR would you suggest I try the "logical" route.......?

Yes the definition of logic is correct as given in the dictionary but this definition supports what the GadFly is saying to you. Does that not make a difference to you? You still criticize me for my ideas. What about my logic offends you? Don't you speak the English language like the rest of us?

I have always used logic that must have a premise that is unchanging and reliable, which allows scientific doctors of medicine to rely on their science. When you talk about science, you use this type of logic, the only logic you say there is. But, when you talk about your foolish religious beliefs, you switch to Hegelian logic which is not scientific at all. No, I am not going to explain Hegelian logic to you again. You don't want to hear it and will not learn anyway. You have given up on learning what the vast majority of the people of the Western Civilization knows to be true and I don't think that even GadFly bites will enlighten you.
GadFly

 

[Charity]

:yes:My bible tells me that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, I guess this explains why some people are lacking in wisdom.....Some day soon they will know what I know in my heart now.....There is a God......

 

[Michel07]

What is it with you guys and this statement? I find it extremely hard to believe that you're that blind that you can't see logic. Here it is: There was a big bang. Something probably set it off. What that something was we don't know yet, but there's no reason to believe that it was intelligent. Once the Big Bang happened, the primal forces of the universe took over and formed clouds of gas, which then formed stars, planets, moons and all other celestial bodies. Some of these planets, or at least one, Earth, evolved to the point of being able to support life. This life started as single-celled "creatures", eventually evolving into anything from bacteria to humans. Humans went through thousands of years of evolution, during which we became conscious of ourselves, and learned to master the world which we inhabitted. Any advances we have made have been the product of human reasoning and intellect. At some point, for reasons that will never be known for sure, humans came up with the idea that there was intelligent life other than ourselves that controlled the world in which we lived. This idea evolved into religion. Religion became a source of comfort and safety as well as a method for controlling groups of people. Since a large portion of humans like to be told what to do, so that they don't have to think for themselves, they believed what the people in charge told them, eventually leading to the situation religion is in today. There has never been any evidence saying that any of the steps in this process couldn't be accomplished without an intelligent life form above us. So, until there is evidence that specifically tells us that our universe could not have been started or have evolved the way it did unless there was some intelligent force, what theists would call "God", I will not believe that there is one.

Your arguments seem to be that this universe could not exist without an inteligent creator. Science, which is and always has been more reliable than religion, tells us that there are things like our existence as we are now, that are statistically extremely improbable that have happened just as a fluke. Just because something is extremely unlikely to happen given the circumstances doesn't mean it can't happen randomly. People who win the lottery have a 1 in 20 million chance of winning, or some huge number like that, and yet, someone always wins by dumb luck.

I know this was a waste of time because you won't see the logic in it, as logic apparently means somethnig completely different to you than it does most of the world. However, I felt it neede to be said, and I'll take that 1 in 20 million chance that at least some part of this gets through to you.

I commend you on the try. It is really quite good but now you will have to explain the catalyst for the big bang. Nothing comes out of nothing. What part of that do you guys not get? An Eternal God that is one who lives in the past, the present and the future at the same time ( omniprescence) could easily use evolution etc. But again what was the catalyst for the Big Bang? That is checkmate.

 

[Michel07]

:yes:My bible tells me that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, I guess this explains why some people are lacking in wisdom.....Some day soon they will know what I know in my heart now.....There is a God......

That is where the truth is. Good for you.

 

[yossarian22]

Yes the definition of logic is correct as given in the dictionary but this definition supports what the GadFly is saying to you. Does that not make a difference to you? You still criticize me for my ideas. What about my logic offends you? Don't you speak the English language like the rest of us?

Don't insult others on the use of the English language.
And the references to yourself in the third person get annoying after a while

You have given up on learning what the vast majority of the people of the Western Civilization knows to be true and I don't think that even GadFly bites will enlighten you.

Conversely, you have given up knowing what the minority of the people of the Western Civilization knows to be true, and I don't think that even Yossarian bites will enlighten you.

 

[yossarian22]

I commend you on the try. It is really quite good but now you will have to explain the catalyst for the big bang. Nothing comes out of nothing. What part of that do you guys not get? An Eternal God that is one who lives in the past, the present and the future at the same time ( omniprescence) could easily use evolution etc. But again what was the catalyst for the Big Bang?

The formation of a black hole in another universe.

That's just one theory, by the way. But that is besides the point.
Both our theories force an infinite regression. Mine is just more useful.

 

[Magic Man]

I commend you on the try. It is really quite good but now you will have to explain the catalyst for the big bang. Nothing comes out of nothing. What part of that do you guys not get? An Eternal God that is one who lives in the past, the present and the future at the same time ( omniprescence) could easily use evolution etc. But again what was the catalyst for the Big Bang? That is checkmate.

That's why I said in the post that we haven't figured out yet what caused it, but there is still no good reason to believe it was intelligent. Unintelligent nuclear forces along with other natural uninteligent forces created stars, planets, moons, etc. So, it stands to reason (and by reason, I mean generally accepted reason, not your corupt version) that even the Big Bang could have been caused by a similar unintelligent force.

 

[uss_bigd]

What is it with you guys and this statement? I find it extremely hard to believe that you're that blind that you can't see logic. Here it is: There was a big bang. Something probably set it off. What that something was we don't know yet, but there's no reason to believe that it was intelligent. Once the Big Bang happened, the primal forces of the universe took over and formed clouds of gas, which then formed stars, planets, moons and all other celestial bodies. Some of these planets, or at least one, Earth, evolved to the point of being able to support life. This life started as single-celled "creatures", eventually evolving into anything from bacteria to humans. Humans went through thousands of years of evolution, during which we became conscious of ourselves, and learned to master the world which we inhabitted. Any advances we have made have been the product of human reasoning and intellect. At some point, for reasons that will never be known for sure, humans came up with the idea that there was intelligent life other than ourselves that controlled the world in which we lived. This idea evolved into religion. Religion became a source of comfort and safety as well as a method for controlling groups of people. Since a large portion of humans like to be told what to do, so that they don't have to think for themselves, they believed what the people in charge told them, eventually leading to the situation religion is in today. There has never been any evidence saying that any of the steps in this process couldn't be accomplished without an intelligent life form above us. So, until there is evidence that specifically tells us that our universe could not have been started or have evolved the way it did unless there was some intelligent force, what theists would call "God", I will not believe that there is one.

Your arguments seem to be that this universe could not exist without an inteligent creator. Science, which is and always has been more reliable than religion, tells us that there are things like our existence as we are now, that are statistically extremely improbable that have happened just as a fluke. Just because something is extremely unlikely to happen given the circumstances doesn't mean it can't happen randomly. People who win the lottery have a 1 in 20 million chance of winning, or some huge number like that, and yet, someone always wins by dumb luck.

I know this was a waste of time because you won't see the logic in it, as logic apparently means somethnig completely different to you than it does most of the world. However, I felt it neede to be said, and I'll take that 1 in 20 million chance that at least some part of this gets through to you.

why are you picking on her... you can't take on THE GADFLY anymore? hehehe

 

[Magic Man]

why are you picking on her... you can't take on THE GADFLY anymore? hehehe

What?

 

[Michel07]

That's why I said in the post that we haven't figured out yet what caused it, but there is still no good reason to believe it was intelligent. Unintelligent nuclear forces along with other natural uninteligent forces created stars, planets, moons, etc. So, it stands to reason (and by reason, I mean generally accepted reason, not your corupt version) that even the Big Bang could have been caused by a similar unintelligent force.

Well until you guys can come up with something a little more substantial than "we dunno" Billions of people in the world will never be able to see your "logic." It is not my logic that is corrupt but your own arrogance of mind . Einstein never taught you anything.

 

[uss_bigd]

Don't insult others on the use of the English language.
And the references to yourself in the third person get annoying after a while
.

Actually those people THE GADFLY is referring to are insulting themselves. and referring to him as THE GADFLY is not annoying, people who has nothing else to say will think that way. i guess you dont have anything else to say huh?

 

[Magic Man]

Well until you guys can come up with something a little more substantial than "we dunno" Billions of people in the world will never be able to see your "logic." It is not my logic that is corrupt but your own arrogance of mind . Einstein never taught you anything.

So, you just need something in there? I'd rather wait and find the right solution than just fill in an answer because it's the best we've got. I feel sorry for those billions of people, then, as they will miss out on some important principles in life.

 

[Magic Man]

Actually those people THE GADFLY is referring to are insulting themselves. and referring to him as THE GADFLY is not annoying, people who has nothing else to say will think that way. i guess you dont have anything else to say huh?

Come on, really? I wasn't sure before, but it's getting clearer that you don't really want to discuss anything, you're just looking to start an argument over nothing. That's too bad, you could learn a lot from the people here if you'd open up, and try a real dialogue.

 

[uss_bigd]

Conversely, you have given up knowing what the minority of the people of the Western Civilization knows to be true, and I don't think that even Yossarian bites will enlighten you.