Should Christians follow the Law?

[Desert Snake]

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.20 Matthew 5.17

Jesus is saying the law will always be, even up to heaven and earth passing away.

The Christian law is different from the laws of certain types of Judaism.
One example, is circumcision. This is clearly made to be something that Xians do not participate in, in the new Testament. Now, it does indicate that if one does practice /physical circumcision, then they are under the entire /physical/ laws, of that type of Judaism. This means that not all the ''law'' is the same, from Judaism to Xianity. Now, how many Xians are taking these instructions faithfully? Well, some, are, yes. But for many, the laws given to Xians, do not seem to hold much value, even for those proclaiming to be Xians.

Ie, the 'laws', differ law to law, and from certain types of ''Judaism'' (that's geographical, Jesus and Xianity is from Israel), to Xianity.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

One example, is circumcision. This is clearly made to be something that Xians do not participate in, in the new Testament. Now, it does indicate that if one does practice /physical circumcision, then they are under the entire /physical/ laws, of that type of Judaism.

Where in the Bible do you derive that from?

 

[Unification]

Your righteousness is righteousness forever; and your law is true. Psalm 119:142

For my hope is in your rules. Psalms 119:43

So shall I keep Your law continually, forever and ever. And I will walk at liberty, for I seek your precepts. Psalms 119:44-45

Mainstream doctrine says God freed us from freedom.

The law of Yahweh is perfect, reviving the soul; Psalms 19:7

Can perfect be made more perfect? Mainstream doctrine teaches Gods law changed.

There is a reason God says I am against the Shepherds in the last days.

Thus says Yahweh "Behold, I am against the Shepherds, and will require My flock at their hand."
Ezekiel 34:10

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to GOD, for it does not submit to God's law. Romans 8:7

And I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statues and be careful to obey my rules. Ezekiel 37:38.

Yeshua is the Word in the flesh John 1:14. The Word of God Revelation 29:13.The same forever. Revelation 19:13 The Word does not change. Isaiah 40:8That means he cannot change. Yeshua is a walking Bible.

Yeshua said, "You have a fine of setting aside the commandments of God in order to observe your own traditions. For Moses said..." Mark 7:8

Yeshua said it is wrong to nullify what Moses wrote. He taught obedience to what Moses wrote. Is what was right now wrong. Is what was wrong now right?

Yeshua said "Has not Moses given you the law. Yet not one of you keeps the law." John 7:19

Yeshua said, "The teachers of the law sit in Moses seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. Matthew 23:2

Yeshua said, "Do not think I came to abolish the law or the prophets. I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one on the least of the commandments and teaches others to do the same shall be called the least. Matthew 5:17

Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day "Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in your name cast out demons in your name and dine many wonders in your name?" And then I will declare to them, " I never knew you; depart from me you who practice lawlessness. Matthew 7:1

For if we sin willfully after we have received knowledge of the truth there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a certwin fearful expectation of judgment and firey indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has re ejected Moses law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Hebrew's 10:26

Thus also faith by itself if it does not have works is dead. James 2:17

For as the body without the spirit is dead so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

It's very simplistic....

With unforced natural and unconditional love, joy, peace, forgiveness, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control there is no law.

This applies to any human being, regardless of which religion, label, geographical location, etc. is upon one.

The entire law in "Hebrew" written texts is not at all what it seems or what mankind has commonly made it out and perceived it to be.

Until one escapes the self-inflicted suffering and also the chains that mankinds lower constitution of laws they wish to impose on anothers... one will not experience liberation and being set free.

 

[NathanShepard8888]

"Teacher what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answered, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?"
Luke 10.25

 

[Brickjectivity]

Where in the Bible do you derive that from?

Wait...that surprised me. This is off topic but would you mind answering this: Does your group practice circumcision, and does it practice circumcision because its in the Torah? I was not aware that Christian groups were doing that.

 

[metis]

Circumcision of boys is also common in Islam, although not a requirement, and it is also common here in the States for secular reasons.

 

[Hawkins]

"Teacher what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answered, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?"
Luke 10.25

His audience is a Jew in this case, though what He said applies to Christians however as teachings instead of Law.

God has a full set of Law which Adam broke. As proven by Noah's event that humans have no hope to be saved through this set of Law. Thus God signed a covenant with Noah. A covenant basically says "humans since you are unable to keep God's full set of Law, you are given a set of Law which you should try your best to keep such that you will be able to be saved by God's Grace through Jesus Christ".

Similarly, God later on granted another set of Law (the Mosaic Law) to the Jews, saying that, "I will make this special set of Law of a covenant more obvious for you to obey. If you failed to obey you are no longer the Jews to be protected by the covenant signed with Moses (i.e., you will be cut off from your people - your fellow Jews)".

Law and covenants serve one main purpose of separating the righteous from the wicked. Alternatively speaking, a covenant has the salvation power to redeem God's sheep who in the end will be deemed righteous by the covenant they are subject to.

As time goes by, humans keep going away from God as in a sense, earth is place of Satan. To put it another way, if God doesn't update a covenant, the covenant in the end will never save anyone, not even God's sheep as even they are unable to abide by the special set of Law attached to the covenant. To deal with this, Jesus Christ will in the end bring us a final covenant where humans can be saved by faith alone. There's no longer Law attached to this final covenant.

Does this mean that we no longer need to obey Law. Of course not, you still need to obey the Law of your previous and current covenant. However the newer covenant will save you from where you failed the Law, as a covenant is updated because you failed to abide by a previous set of Law. You need to obey the Law but in the end you will inevitably break it some where at some point, and the newer covenant will save you from that situation.

In a nutshell, you need to obey the special set of Law attached to the covenant you are born with. Everyone without exception that he's subject to a default covenant and needs to obey the Law set attached to that covenant. The New Covenant is not a covenant born with. It is a covenant an adult will choose with consent. You thus need to obey the Law of your covenant born with you, however you are expected to fail at some point. Thus obeying the Law won't save you. You need to choose the New and final covenant by putting Faith in Christ for you to be saved. Thus it is important to follow Christ's teaching to secure your salvation, beside this don't try to break the Law at will.

You need to obey the older set of Law however you will not be judged by this set of Law on the judgment day. You will be subject to the terms in a newer covenant. So when you are under the protection of the New and final Covenant. You won't be judged by Law at all. You will be saved by faith alone. Only in this sense that you can deem the old set of Law obsolete. Moreover, we as gentiles don't need to follow the Mosaic Law. However whatever said by Jesus will become the teaching we need to follow, including most of the 10 commandments.

It's a little bit complicated. This should be the case as long as Law (any Law) is concerned. I am trying to explain it from what I have understood.

 

[12jtartar]

Hawkins,
With your explanation you have made the concept very difficult to understand, mainly because you do not understand yourself, 1Timothy 1:6,7. Everyone who assumes the great responsibility to teach others, must make sure what they teach is truth, or they are condemning themselves to destruction, James 3:1, 2Peter 3:15,16.
Now, Please consider these words, which could save your life, 1Timothy 4:15,16, 2Timothy 2:24-26. Do not be in a hurry to reject these words, because I am using the Holy Scriptures to help you, 2Timothy 3:16,17, 2Peter 1:20,21.
As we can see, the Mosaic Law Covenant was not a permanent law, but was an interim, De Bene Esse Law. God had Jeremiah to record another Covenant that would supersede the Mosaic Covenant, Jeremiah 31:31-34. Many of the words Jeremiah used, Paul applied at Hebrews 10:14-18. Allow me to interject a thought here, there are false doctrines, but believing in Cacodoctrines, can mean your life.
There has been two very great, and different time periods, which some call dispensations, The Mosaic Dispensation, The Mosaic Covenant,and now The Christian Dispensation, The New Covenant.
One of the important things that Jesus came to earth to do was to remove The Mosaic Law Covenant, because everyone under the Mosaic Covenant was under a CURSE, Galatians 3:10-14, because no one could obey it perfectly, Acts 10:38,39, 15:10, so it made no one perfect in God's sight, Hebrews 7:18,19, 10:1, because sins cannot be completely forgiven by the blood of goats and bulls, Hebrews 10:11.
On the night before Jesus' death, at The Lord's Supper, Jesus instituted The New Covenant, Luke 22:19-22. This New Covenant was much better than the Mosaic Covenant, because it was based on the blood of Jesus Christ, God's only begotten son, Hebrews 9:13-15, 8:6-13. The blood of Jesus makes perfect, all those who believe in his Ransom Sacrifice, Hebrews 10:14.
The New Covenant was to begin with the coming of Jesus, Galatians 3:22-26, and it started at Jesus death, Romans 7:4-6, Colossians 2:13,14, Galatians 3:13, Acts 2:23.
No gentile was ever under the Mosaic Covenant, except a few proselytes, Romans 2:14. The Jews were not under the Mosaic Law Covenant after Jesus' death, 1Corinthians 9:20, Romans 6:14,15. Paul was a Jew.

 

[metis]

The Jews were not under the Mosaic Law Covenant after Jesus' death, 1Corinthians 9:20, Romans 6:14,15. Paul was a Jew.

Probably not true. However, there's not much doubt that Paul believed that a belief in Jesus and what he taught was more important than following the Law, which is why he tells non-Jews that there simply is no reason to be circumcised, as Jewish Law dictates.

I think Paul has a change of mind somewhere along the way when he realizes that "the Way" cannot truly be "one body" with two distinct groups operating under different paradigms. For example, what about keeping kosher, intermarriage, etc.? By making Jesus superior to the Law, problem solved.

 

[Hawkins]

Probably not true. However, there's not much doubt that Paul believed that a belief in Jesus and what he taught was more important than following the Law, which is why he tells non-Jews that there simply is no reason to be circumcised, as Jewish Law dictates.

I think Paul has a change of mind somewhere along the way when he realizes that "the Way" cannot truly be "one body" with two distinct groups operating under different paradigms. For example, what about keeping kosher, intermarriage, etc.? By making Jesus superior to the Law, problem solved.

Who keeps the Mosaic Law strictly nowadays? Not even the Jews. That's the point. In terms of salvation, keeping the Law won't save. And it's not practical at all for the gentiles to be circumcised in order to be saved. So it's natural that God doesn't demand the gentiles to be circumcised. While gentiles are not subject to the Mosaic Law in the first place.

 

[metis]

Who keeps the Mosaic Law strictly nowadays? Not even the Jews. That's the point. In terms of salvation, keeping the Law won't save. And it's not practical at all for the gentiles to be circumcised in order to be saved. So it's natural that God doesn't demand the gentiles to be circumcised. While gentiles are not subject to the Mosaic Law in the first place.

"Nice" stereotype of Jews, and how often has we seen this before and where it's led.

Since there are penalties attached to not obeying certain Laws, common sense should tell one that it is assumed that one could violate a Law without somehow being abandoned by God. And obviously Christians may also sin, and they, like us, can be forgiven by God. If you have a concordance, look up the word "forgive" and its variations and you'll see that God can and does forgive, and the sacrifices at the Temple are only one way in which God can forgive. And, yes, non-Jews are not obligated to follow the Law.

But none of this is the point I was making if you go back and see what I actually did write in my last post. Instead of dealing with that, you took off on a side-bar that wasn't being discussed, so you might consider revisiting what I wrote.

 

[rosends]

Who keeps the Mosaic Law strictly nowadays? Not even the Jews.

Says who? You? Because you're wrong.

 

[2ndpillar]

Your righteousness is righteousness forever; and your law is true. Psalm 119:142

For my hope is in your rules. Psalms 119:43

So shall I keep Your law continually, forever and ever. And I will walk at liberty, for I seek your precepts. Psalms 119:44-45

Mainstream doctrine says God freed us from freedom.

The law of Yahweh is perfect, reviving the soul; Psalms 19:7

Can perfect be made more perfect? Mainstream doctrine teaches Gods law changed.

There is a reason God says I am against the Shepherds in the last days.

Thus says Yahweh "Behold, I am against the Shepherds, and will require My flock at their hand."
Ezekiel 34:10

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to GOD, for it does not submit to God's law. Romans 8:7

And I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statues and be careful to obey my rules. Ezekiel 37:38.

Yeshua is the Word in the flesh John 1:14. The Word of God Revelation 29:13.The same forever. Revelation 19:13 The Word does not change. Isaiah 40:8That means he cannot change. Yeshua is a walking Bible.

Yeshua said, "You have a fine of setting aside the commandments of God in order to observe your own traditions. For Moses said..." Mark 7:8

Yeshua said it is wrong to nullify what Moses wrote. He taught obedience to what Moses wrote. Is what was right now wrong. Is what was wrong now right?

Yeshua said "Has not Moses given you the law. Yet not one of you keeps the law." John 7:19

Yeshua said, "The teachers of the law sit in Moses seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. Matthew 23:2

Yeshua said, "Do not think I came to abolish the law or the prophets. I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one on the least of the commandments and teaches others to do the same shall be called the least. Matthew 5:17

Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day "Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in your name cast out demons in your name and dine many wonders in your name?" And then I will declare to them, " I never knew you; depart from me you who practice lawlessness. Matthew 7:1

For if we sin willfully after we have received knowledge of the truth there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a certwin fearful expectation of judgment and firey indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has re ejected Moses law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Hebrew's 10:26

Thus also faith by itself if it does not have works is dead. James 2:17

For as the body without the spirit is dead so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

Dear nat,
Apparently, when "David will be king over them" (Ez 37:24), they will "walk in My ordinances, and keep my statutes, and observe them". And why will they do that? Because he will rule with a "rod of iron" (Psalms 2:9), and as in Zech 14:17, if they don't keep his feast of Booths, they will get no rain. See how well they eat when the earth turns to iron when it stops raining.

 

[2ndpillar]

Wait...that surprised me. This is off topic but would you mind answering this: Does your group practice circumcision, and does it practice circumcision because its in the Torah? I was not aware that Christian groups were doing that.

Dear brick,
I went to school in the 50s, before the Mafia bought the Kennedy election, and the Supreme Court made sacrificing babies a legal and popular pass time. I was raised in a Catholic family, and went to a public high school, which consisted of mostly Baptist and Methodist, and as far as I know, there was only one guy who was not circumcised, and I think that was because he was born in a cabin in the woods.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Dear brick,
I went to school in the 50s, before the Mafia bought the Kennedy election, and the Supreme Court made sacrificing babies a legal and popular pass time. I was raised in a Catholic family, and went to a public high school, which consisted of mostly Baptist and Methodist, and as far as I know, there was only one guy who was not circumcised, and I think that was because he was born in a cabin in the woods.

I don't think that the hospital procedure is a church procedure. Ministry do not check to see who is circumcised or not. Its not a Christian thing as far as I'm aware of.

 

[2ndpillar]

I don't think that the hospital procedure is a church procedure. Ministry do not check to see who is circumcised or not. Its not a Christian thing as far as I'm aware of.

Dear brick,
I don't think the circumcision of Moses' son was a "church procedure", or even on the 8th day, but I am thinking it did the trick. At least the angel left without killing anyone. I think the present generation is screwed, they seem quite hard of heart, which kind of mimics the condition of not being circumcised. I guess you will have to blame it on the fathers.

 

[metis]

“To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.” (1 Corinthians 9:20)

Can you use only Jewish scripture to make your point? I’m not arguing with you. Maybe you are right, show me.

I don't know who this question is addressed to nor what actually you're looking for?

 

[roger1440]

Who keeps the Mosaic Law strictly nowadays? Not even the Jews. That's the point. In terms of salvation, keeping the Law won't save. And it's not practical at all for the gentiles to be circumcised in order to be saved. So it's natural that God doesn't demand the gentiles to be circumcised. While gentiles are not subject to the Mosaic Law in the first place.

Saved from what? There is a very good reason why gentiles do not need to be circumcised. They ain't Jews.

 

[roger1440]

I don't know who this question is addressed to nor what actually you're looking for?

12jtartar

 

[roger1440]

I don't know who this question is addressed to nor what actually you're looking for?

12jtartar is saying that the New Covenant makes the Old Covenant obsolete. All I’m saying is show me by using Jewish scripture.