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Should Citizens Use Deadly Force Against Cops?

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
You should be able to use the same force, per situation, that you would use against any other person in a similar situation. In the case of rape, mace, nut-kicks, eye-gouge, even deadly force is acceptable to defend one's self against an attack.
And in light of how reality is, it only means we are long overdue for ridding ourselves of an utterly incompetent and corrupt government.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
Self defense applies against law enforcement personnel as it does against non law enforcement personnel. The historical precedence on this issue is a strong one. Hell, it's been the case that law enforcement agencies as well as the federal government, along the Executive Branch, has been acting against this logic given the past history regarding drug enforcement. I've mentioned on this forum the case of Cory Maye using deadly force to protect himself and his child against a perceived intruder who turned out to be a cop and the case of Esequiel Hernandez who was killed by U.S. marines. Not to mention Patrick Dorismund against a cop who deemed him a drug dealer.

The precedent was set long ago in English common law that the Castle Doctrine held the use of violent force against unreasonable searches was a common right. To extend that to the person is not a far leap of logic. It's an essential aspect of the logic involved. It's unfortunate that modern America has become a place where law enforcement, an agency not even mentioned in Constitutional wording and even lacks a strong historical precedent in the terms of professional policing, is given far more weight against individual rights given the nature of human psychology.

As far as Obama the only correct response in his attitude towards the overall picture of law enforcement abuse, given the drug war and his stance on it, is that no he has not given a satisfactory response in terms of civilian rights against law enforcement abuses. But he is merely carrying over a status quo since the Nixon era.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Civil Rights Division Home Page
("Addressing Police Misconduct Laws Enforced by the Department of Justice")
The boilerplate regarding prevention of abuse by authorities is a step in the right direction, but it provides no remedies whatsoever for the victims. Moreover, this is not an example of Obama weighing in personally, as he did in the Gates & Martin incidents. Perhaps I expect too much of him, since I consider a permissive environment of sexual assault by cops & other gov types more heinous than does he.

Good ole Salon.com...the Fox of the left. I like how they decry Bush's persecution of whistle blowers, while remaining silent on Obama's greatly ramped up program to target them for prosecution. But setting aside the ridiculous propagandistic side of the article, the feds seem interested only in racially charged abuse. We should note that Obama spoke publicly about Gates & Martin because they're black, but he's rather silent on others.

Hmmm....in all linked articles, there's no mention of going after gov agents who rape citizens.
I remain unimpressed with Obama's commitment to civil rights for all.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I think there needs to be a higher authority on this for cops. Something like an alternative (harsher) court that they wouldn't have any connection to. I also am verymuch for the idea of having cameras strategically located so as to capture the majority of what police officers do as well as laws protecting citizens who "assault" police officers.
I've been thinking that we need a parallel justice system to deal with gov thugs, who too easily get a pass in the system they're part of. The only way to make cops behave properly is to strike fear in their hearts that if they abuse someone, they'll face harsh punishment...not just a paid vacation during an 'investigation'.

I know of several cases where individuals merely grabbed the hands of officers who were doing an illegal search and gotten several years for "assault of a police officer".
I recall a book by an ex-Los Angeles cop, wherein he said he was trained to use small pins when frisking a suspect, which would cause an involuntary reaction (upon being poked) to swat the pained area. It was a pretext to claim assaulting the cop, giving these thugs license to do as they please, eg, beat or prosecute the citizen.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
this is not an example of Obama weighing in personally, as he did in the Gates & Martin incidents.

Weighing in personally is nothing but talk. Had he done this then you'd criticize him for it...instead what we see is policy addressing some of the problems...bit even that seems it's not enough for you with the administration....IMO they've done more to address some of these issues than others.

Perhaps I expect too much of him, since I consider a permissive environment of sexual assault by cops & other gov types more heinous than does he.

What you belive you see and what they're doing is two different things as many of the articles and policies I've listed show.

Good ole Salon.com...the Fox of the left.

Like Drudge or Breitbart are so much better. :rolleyes:


Hmmm....in all linked articles, there's no mention of going after gov agents who rape citizens.
I remain unimpressed with Obama's commitment to civil rights for all.

Local or federal?
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I've been thinking that we need a parallel justice system to deal with gov thugs, who too easily get a pass in the system they're part of. The only way to make cops behave properly is to strike fear in their hearts that if they abuse someone, they'll face harsh punishment...not just a paid vacation during an 'investigation'.

This seems a reasonable and easily applied remedy.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
This seems a reasonable and easily applied remedy.
"Easily applied"?
Oh, what a wicked sarcasm you wield!

One possibility would be an organization which would pursue the cops
in civil court for punitive damages, for which gov wouldn't be liable.
 

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
Personally I would think that there should be an equivalent monitoring and reporting agency which is under the direction of each of the branches of government and is responsible for monitoring infractions by those other branches (and if the infraction was by part of the judicial branch would also have a review mechanism to determine the appropriate outcome - if the infraction was NOT by the judicial branch, would forward it to the judicial branch to review).

It seems to me however that no matter how that set up was done it would be subject to cronyism since in the end, it is one big club with a few different uniforms and the legislature holds the purse.

Bah, perhaps they need to be entirely seperate to all three - not part of a branch of government at all, but rather a new entity with the capacity to pay itself (i.e. taxes) for whom the sole responsibility is to monitor the government and punish transgressions.
 

BlandOatmeal

Active Member
So today I ran across this post...
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3500716-post551.html
That rabble rouser, Jeremy Mason, prompted this thought.
Should citizens use deadly force against cops who rape them?...
It is not wise for citizens to use deadly force against law enforcement officers -- not in Turkmenistan, not in Iran, not in Syria, not in Libya, not in Zimbabwe and not in the US.

The reason? There are more of them than of you.

As for the "rape" issue? Would a woman rather be raped? or get beaten up and have her skull cracked? or be shot? All these things happen, and have been happening for millenia.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Self defense applies against law enforcement personnel as it does against non law enforcement personnel. The historical precedence on this issue is a strong one. Hell, it's been the case that law enforcement agencies as well as the federal government, along the Executive Branch, has been acting against this logic given the past history regarding drug enforcement. I've mentioned on this forum the case of Cory Maye using deadly force to protect himself and his child against a perceived intruder who turned out to be a cop and the case of Esequiel Hernandez who was killed by U.S. marines. Not to mention Patrick Dorismund against a cop who deemed him a drug dealer.

The precedent was set long ago in English common law that the Castle Doctrine held the use of violent force against unreasonable searches was a common right. To extend that to the person is not a far leap of logic. It's an essential aspect of the logic involved. It's unfortunate that modern America has become a place where law enforcement, an agency not even mentioned in Constitutional wording and even lacks a strong historical precedent in the terms of professional policing, is given far more weight against individual rights given the nature of human psychology.

As far as Obama the only correct response in his attitude towards the overall picture of law enforcement abuse, given the drug war and his stance on it, is that no he has not given a satisfactory response in terms of civilian rights against law enforcement abuses. But he is merely carrying over a status quo since the Nixon era.
Go ahead and be my guest to try it. Just make sure you write to me from prison to let me know how it turned out for you.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I suspect you are right. But the problem is, dominance/subordinance is genetically coded. So the abused still feel that the abusers have a right to abuse ...
Virtually nothing is genetically "programmed" regarding cognitive processes and personality types. Even theories within epigenetics are highly speculative and rely on correlations within correlations. The psychiatric community has been working hard since the 80s to firmly establish a biological basis for mental diseases. They are farther away now then they were then, because allele changes within genes that code for e.g., dopamine and depression correlate with everything from depression to psychoses to anxiety disorders to nothing at all. Spatial orientation abilities can be shaped by language: if a person grows up speaking a language that uses an absolute reference system, they tend to be much better at orienting themselves than people who, like English speakers, have subjective reference systems (left/right, up/down, backwards/forewards, etc.).

Learning to read, like learning one's first language, fundamentally restructures the brain (see e.g., How Learning to Read Changes the Cortical Networks for Vision and Language).

If, as the evidence suggests, things like learning to read or learning one's first language (not to mention one's culture) fundamentally alters cognition and brain structures that are primarily sensorimotor and therefore both less complex and more "intrinsic" to all experience than an illusory and every-changing thing like personality, why should we think that any part of personality is genetically programmed? What evidence is there, particularly given that both the American DSM and the ICD-10 rely necessarily on completely symptom-based diagnoses for all mental illnesses? What is the genetic basis for the distinction you put forward?
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
"Easily applied"?
Oh, what a wicked sarcasm you wield!

One possibility would be an organization which would pursue the cops
in civil court for punitive damages, for which gov wouldn't be liable.

If we simply applied the same rules to cops as we do to everyone else, then yes, it should be easily applied. There really shouldn't be the need for any separate court. The problem is corruption and cronyism. This should be pursued and punished as well as obstruction of justice.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
If we simply applied the same rules to cops as we do to everyone else, then yes, it should be easily applied. There really shouldn't be the need for any separate court. The problem is corruption and cronyism. This should be pursued and punished as well as obstruction of justice.
Corruption & cronyism are inherent when the same organization employs them all:
the cops, the cops who police the cops, the judges, the prosecutors
Greater independence is needed.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I hope you are not suggesting privatizing these sectors.
I'm not. But it could work for some functions.
Private companies don't have the broad immunities that government does.

Example:
If you're a university student here, & live in a dorm. They can evict you without due process, eg, send security over to your room & put you out on the street. If they abuse you, there are no penalties.
But if you live in privately owned housing, I need a court order to evict you (which can take months to a year), & then the sheriff supervises the removal of property. There are severe statutory sanctions if the landlord gets it wrong.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I think a good first step would be to abolish any laws against video taping police actions.

I agree. I do however think that there should be a required waiting period before people post actual arrests on "youtube" unless they get permission from the accused or blur out the faces.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I'm not. But it could work for some functions.
Private companies don't have the broad immunities that government does.

Example:
If you're a university student here, & live in a dorm. They can evict you without due process, eg, send security over to your room & put you out on the street. If they abuse you, there are no penalties.
But if you live in privately owned housing, I need a court order to evict you (which can take months to a year), & then the sheriff supervises the removal of property. There are severe statutory sanctions if the landlord gets it wrong.

I would be surprised if a university could evict a person without notice, I will look into the Michigan laws, and check if there is precedent.
 
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