Should Feminists be encouraging women to be strippers?

[Poeticus]

In my opinion the purpose of a strip club, much like lad magazines and pornography, is to sell a limited sexual representation of women for mostly men and to compete with other women in a sexual way for money? How wrong am I? Please explain to me?

Namaste,

Dear brother/sister, you aren't necessarily wrong....I am explaining the stance a few of us have purported....that if stripping is conducted - the dancers that actually "strip", meaning the very artful ones - those are the ones which can be admired, because they go above the material perspective and traverse upon the higher consciousness of creativity: money isn't there primary motive, engaging in the art is - increasing their skill. Look at post #160 and tell me that that isn't skill (and it isn't stripping, it is a strip derived "sport": professional pole dancing)...

M.V.

 

[Penumbra]

Namaste,

But, there will still be a sex trade in a matriarchal world (with the "strippers" being mostly men in this situation).

This is what I keep asking you to provide a source or something for. Is it just a guess?

Are you making the assumption that male and female brains are identical?

It isn't as lovey dovey as one would envision it to be, Lady Penumbra-ji. Plus, I am all for a matriarchal society. A female fighting with a sword, commanding me around...I would be in heaven!

M.V.

Cultures that had matriarchal aspects to them still tended to have male warriors, if they had warriors.

Matriarchal/Patriarchal doesn't mean every role is flipped, MV. It doesn't become a mirror opposite of what you see today.

 

[Sunstone]

...the art can be distinguished easily.

In my experience, this is substantially true. Of course, there are a few strippers who can keep you guessing, but for the most part, it is pretty easy to distinguish between someone who is pandering to the customers by expressing the sexuality she thinks will most please them, and someone who is expressing her own notions of sexuality.

I've had several friends who were strippers, and some of them in discussions with me, have talked about stripping as an art, while most of them have talked about stripping as a job.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Namaste,

Dear brother/sister, you aren't necessarily wrong....I am explaining the stance a few of us have purported....that if stripping is conducted - the dancers that actually "strip", meaning the very artful ones - those are the ones which can be admired, because they go above the material perspective and traverse upon the higher consciousness of creativity: money isn't there primary motive, engaging in the art is - increasing their skill. Look at post #160 and tell me that that isn't skill (and it isn't stripping, it is a strip derived "sport": professional pole dancing)...

M.V.

I watched your video, yes I would say that was for the purpose of sport and it isn't stripping, more like gymnastics?

 

[DallasApple]

You don't need to be in power to have strippers- you just need a market for it.

Exactly. Nothing is stopping anyone from erecting a male strip joint on every corner there is a female one.But how long before 90% of them shut down because they were mostly empty?

 

[Aquitaine]

I believe this is true. Especially that matriarchies tend not to be the mirror opposite of patriarchies. Instead, they are radically different, not just mirror opposites.

I've often gotten confused on this one, if historical "Matriarchies" tended not to be mirror-opposites of "Patriarchies", and were more Egalitarian, then wouldn't they *not* be "Matriarchies" - and instead be Egalitarian societies that happened to have more female leadership?

What I mean is, isn't Mat/Patriarchy where one Sex has an unfair advantage a hierarchy over the other?

 

[Poeticus]

Namaste, Penumbra-ji:

This is what I keep asking you to provide a source or something for. Is it just a guess?

Are you making the assumption that male and female brains are identical?

Matriarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gynecocracy, gynaecocracy, gynocracy, gyneocracy, and gynarchy generally mean 'government by women over women and men'.[30][31][32][33] All of these words are synonyms in their most important definitions. While these words all share that principal meaning, they differ a little in their additional meanings, so that gynecocracy also means 'women's social supremacy',[34] gynaecocracy also means 'government by one woman', 'female dominance', and, derogatorily, 'petticoat government',[35] and gynocracy also means 'women as the ruling class'.[36] Gyneocracy is rarely used in modern times.[37] None of these definitions are limited to mothers.
Some matriarchies have been described by historian Helen Diner as "a strong gynocracy"[38] and "women monopolizing government"[39] and she described matriarchal Amazons as "an extreme, feminist wing"[40] of humanity and that North African women "ruled the country politically,"[38] and, according to Margot Adler, Helen Diner "envision[ed] a dominance matriarchy".[41]

Obviously the brain of the two are different, but that isn't my point, Penumbra-ji. Sexual trading or sexual "services" would still be occurring in matriarchal societies.

The mother Earth cults/religions (of a matriarchal society) such as that of Cybele in Ancient Anatolia conducted prominent orgies; the women calling the shots and the men obeying, (which is pretty awesome!!).

So, there wouldn't be any sex trading going on in a matriarchal society that would be monopolized by women?

Sex, stripping, orgies, etc. They would be happening if it was a patriarchal or a matriarchal society, regardless.

Cultures that had matriarchal aspects to them still tended to have male warriors, if they had warriors.

Explain the Sarmatians and the Northern and Southern Scythians....the women fought with the men, side by side...as well as the Germanic Cimbri...

Matriarchal/Patriarchal doesn't mean every role is flipped, MV. It doesn't become a mirror opposite of what you see today.

I agree. But, sexual trading will still occur in a matriarchal society.

and someone who is expressing her own notions of sexuality.

Namaste, Sunstone-ji:

That is sexual art; so much passion and skill and even some mind control all thrown into the mixture. What exoticness!

I've had several friends who were strippers, and some of them in discussions with me, have talked about stripping as an art, while most of them have talked about stripping as a job.

First, lucky you! Second, I agree; the two will diverge and express their goals regarding their occupation/"service" differently.

I watched your video, yes I would say that was for the purpose of sport and it isn't stripping, more like gymnastics?

Namaste, Horrorble-ji:

The point was to show that their can be art in both stripping and in stripping-derived sport.

M.V.

 

[Sunstone]

In my opinion the purpose of a strip club, much like lad magazines and pornography, is to sell a limited sexual representation of women for mostly men and to compete with other women in a sexual way for money? How wrong am I? Please explain to me?

You're not entirely wrong, in my opinion. I think most strippers to one extent or another fail as artists, although they might succeed as businesswomen. They fail as artists for many reasons -- lack of confidence; because they are pandering to their customers by expressing not their own views of sexuality, but what they imagine their customers want to see; because they lack an artistic bent or talent; because they have never been trained or encourage to perform artistically -- or any number of other reasons. For whatever reason, they fail as artists.

But none of that changes the fact that you are partly wrong in so far as you lump all strippers and stripping together as "selling a limited sexual representation of women". The poor and mediocre strippers do that. But not the good ones.

Some people are natural born artists. They will make an art of anything. And some of those people find their way into stripping.

 

[Sunstone]

I've often gotten confused on this one, if historical "Matriarchies" tended not to be mirror-opposites of "Patriarchies", and were more Egalitarian, then wouldn't they *not* be "Matriarchies" - and instead be Egalitarian societies that happened to have more female leadership?

What I mean is, isn't Mat/Patriarchy where one Sex has an unfair advantage a hierarchy over the other?

So far as I know, there are only a couple existing matriarchies in the world, and both of them are poorly studied. One is comprised of non-Chan Chinese living in modern China, and the other is comprised of a tribal group living in India. Both are matriarchies because inheritance is through the female line. Both are egalitarian, especially when compared to patriarchies.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

So far as I know, the performances of most strippers do not rise to the level of an art (unless one very broadly defines art, which would be a legitimate point). But some strippers do indeed express their sexuality through dance and movement. Those are the artists. Some are better than others, but that doesn't change the fact that some strippers, if only a relative few, are indeed creating art. Now, how does figure into your view of things?

If the purpose is purely to turn on an audience, it's not art. If sexually is an aspect of it like theatre dance performance then yes I can accept that as art.
I don't see how a lap dance can be art.

So strip clubs are not about selling art then? that's not the purpose?

 

[Sunstone]

So strip clubs are not about selling art then? that's not the purpose?

Strip clubs are one thing, but I'm talking about strippers. Some strippers are basically artists. Most are not. The artists among them are most likely people who would turn nearly anything they did into an art. That is, they seem to be naturals at art. But most people are not naturals at art, nor are most strippers naturals at art.

As for strip clubs, that would probably depend on the management and owners. I'd bet they were in it for the money, rather than in it to bring art to the masses. But that's just my guess.

 

[Poeticus]

^^to Horrorble-ji

Namaste,

I wouldn't be so concerned with what you see on the surface level. Distinguishing the artist from the "player" is something one develops as a skill.

But, a majority of "strippers" are in it for the money.

M.V.

 

[Sunstone]

I don't see how a lap dance can be art.

How can any form of expression or self-expression be an art?

 

[Sunstone]

A good friend of mine was both an artistic person and a stripper. For instance, she would incorporate into her dance moves that she'd seen in videos of Thai and Indian dancers, making them her own. She eventually got tired of the job because most of her customers -- most, but not all -- failed to appreciate what she was doing. But that doesn't change the fact she approached stripping as an art.

 

[Sunstone]

To change the subject a bit, I've known a handful of strippers who used the money they earned to put themselves through college without debt, or to buy businesses. One, for instance, bought both a restaurant in L.A., and started a small import/export business with her earnings. Another bought a half interest in a Texas talent agency.

There are few jobs in which a person can so easily leverage their earnings into self-employment.

 

[Debater Slayer]

How do you draw that conclusion? I've simply been responding to people trying to get around the questions of the OP or are challenging the ideas presented in the implications. How is the OP not an effectively neutral question?

Wow, this is the kind of response I get when other people try to deny and dismiss the idea that women are being sexually objectified?

This response leads me to believe that people aren't actually interested in discussing the implications of encouraging women to be strippers.

Or perhaps you feel there's only one form of Feminism, as I've clearly demonstrated is not the case? Are you saying that Feminists who disagree with Stripping are passively attacking Feminism?

No, I'm saying that certain loaded questions seem to be passive attacks on feminism:

Hold on here, the very concept of female "Sexual liberation" has further instilled in us men that women are just wild, crazy sexual animals more than willing to fulfill our own perverted lusts. It's hardly limited to stripping for money.

Are you trying to move back the Feminist movement by 50 years or something?

Hey, at least if she's doing it for money, she's being empowered and seeking independence. And without any of this "glass ceiling" and "Wage gap" BS to boot! All this "love" stuff, often goes away quickly. And if she's doing it just for a temporary fix of lust, that's just ridiculous compared to doing it for some serious cash. What you're saying sounds very prudish, almost as if it's my own beliefs!

Thus, Feminism, by principle, regardless what "wave" it's in, should be actively encouraging women to make a fast, easy buck off of the lusts of paying men! Who cares if it boils down to making men think women are there for their sexual amusement? Isn't that what they already think? I mean, if you want men to not think that, you're going to have to go back to like Victorian status, and I don't think going back to Victorian status is on Feminist's minds.

There's a difference between inquiring about feminists' perspectives regarding stripping and misrepresenting what "feminism" is about to fit preconceived notions you have about it.

 

[DallasApple]

If most not all "fail to appreciate" something as art then is it really art at all?If its not "used" as art ?Kind of like if "most" just not all were using a Picasso as t.v tray to hold your plate of food instead of appreciating it as art.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

How can any form of expression or self-expression be an art?

It's art if it's meant to be creative in order to convey a meaning, or message, If it's just to turn someone on as much as possible or have dry sex it's not art.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

A good friend of mine was both an artistic person and a stripper. For instance, she would incorporate into her dance moves that she'd seen in videos of Thai and Indian dancers, making them her own. She eventually got tired of the job because most of her customers -- most, but not all -- failed to appreciate what she was doing. But that doesn't change the fact she approached stripping as an art.

Someone could view that as cultural appropriation

 

[DallasApple]

It's art if it's meant to be creative in order to convey a meaning, or message, If it's just to turn someone on as much as possible or have dry sex it's not art.

Right..seems more like a utilitarian "use" .A means to an end.