Should Feminists be encouraging women to be strippers?

[Penumbra]

I've often gotten confused on this one, if historical "Matriarchies" tended not to be mirror-opposites of "Patriarchies", and were more Egalitarian, then wouldn't they *not* be "Matriarchies" - and instead be Egalitarian societies that happened to have more female leadership?

What I mean is, isn't Mat/Patriarchy where one Sex has an unfair advantage a hierarchy over the other?

A patriarchy/matriarchy refers to when one sex has more cultural power than the other, having the central roles of authority.

Patriarchal examples are common, and probably don't need much elaboration here.

Matriarchal examples tend to be more nuanced, less clearly defined. Examples include societies where property descends through the maternal line, with the women owning the property, but with an otherwise fairly equal society with positions of authority for both men and women. Another example is that in some societies, a group of elder women select the chief, often a male, to lead the group, and can dismiss him if he does not perform it well. Kind of like a board of directors / CEO type of relationship.

 

[Aquitaine]

I'll just restate what I've stated already: When it comes to stripping, you can (with a little practice) tell the difference between someone who is expressing her views of sexuality through dance and movement, and someone who is not. The former strikes me as art. The latter strikes me as most often pandering, or -- at best -- as bad art.

Having never visited a strip club, nor considering myself particularly "Artsy", I would assume the distinction you're trying to demonstrate looks something like this (using Dallas' Coffee/Tea making example):

A person at work making you Tea via this method:

[youtube]T_8l1fBCGAU[/youtube]
Nesco Tea Maker - YouTube

With a person at work making you Tea via this method:

[youtube]Gg6H57-abv4[/youtube]
Amazing Tea maker doing amazing tricks.mp4 - YouTube

Both are essentially the same task (Tea making) yet are completely different. One is hardcore, the other is mundane.

 

[Sunstone]

@Acquitaine: Good examples! Thanks!

I think the key thing is whether the person performing is trying to communicate their views of something. For instance, the young man in the second video seems to be trying to communicate a notion of beauty and perhaps, "coolness".

 

[Titanic]

All us men love a good show of women behaving badly I suppose. That might just be my childhood talking so...

 

[Aquitaine]

A patriarchy/matriarchy refers to when one sex has more cultural power than the other, having the central roles of authority.

Patriarchal examples are common, and probably don't need much elaboration here.

Matriarchal examples tend to be more nuanced, less clearly defined. Examples include societies where property descends through the maternal line, with the women owning the property, but with an otherwise fairly equal society with positions of authority for both men and women. Another example is that in some societies, a group of elder women select the chief, often a male, to lead the group, and can dismiss him if he does not perform it well. Kind of like a board of directors / CEO type of relationship.

Sounds like women are better at running things then.

 

[Poeticus]

Sounds like women are better at running things then.

Namaste,

Obiously. Women running the show is a major turn on for me. Men calling the shots just hurts my pride :sad4::sad4::sad4:.

M.V.

 

[Aquitaine]

@Acquitaine: Good examples! Thanks!

I think the key thing is whether the person performing is trying to communicate their views of something. For instance, the young man in the second video seems to be trying to communicate a notion of beauty and perhaps, "coolness".

As well as a demonstration of one's knowledge and trust of liquid physics lol, I'd pay for him to make me a brew - and would consider referring to his performance as Art.

Imagine a group of people doing stuff like that in-synch!
Since we're on the topic, do Strippers ever do stuff in big groups, like a synchronised dance routine of their collective interpretations and expressions of Sexuality on a stage - or do strippers just perform solo?

 

[Titanic]

As well as a demonstration of one's knowledge and trust of liquid physics lol, I'd pay for him to make me a brew - and would consider referring to his performance as Art.

Imagine a group of people doing stuff like that in-synch!
Since we're on the topic, do Strippers ever do stuff in big groups, like a synchronised dance routine of their collective interpretations and expressions of Sexuality on a stage - or do strippers just perform solo?

Strippers do all kinds of naughty things. The movie Showgirls should explain that.

 

[Sunstone]

...do Strippers ever do stuff in big groups, like a synchronised dance routine of their collective interpretations and expressions of Sexuality on a stage - or do strippers just perform solo?

I've almost never seen strippers do something as a group. The exception is when all the strippers in a club will get on stage with some customer who is getting married the next day and then tease him about never being allowed back in the club after his marriage. But that's far from a dance routine.

 

[DallasApple]

I think I already "got " the distinction .I know the difference in going to a Japanese steak house or a sushi bar and watching the cooks and watching someone dump a can of Chunky soup in a saucepan on the stove.And there is the degree in "culinary arts".

I think the point is one person can't say something is "art" (period matter of fact) just because one person thinks it is.So what one person thinks is "art" in the stripping industry another person is not "wrong" for saying its not.Or that they dont believe any stripping is "art" doesn't mean they don't "understand art' or the difference between art and "mundane".Maybe some view the "mundane" as art.I took a picture one time of an over ripe banana the was on our banana hanger and had started to peel its self.I thought it was art no one else did.

 

[Sunstone]

I think I already "got " the distinction .I know the difference in going to a Japanese steak house or a sushi bar and watching the cooks and watching someone dump a can of Chunky soup in a saucepan on the stove.And their is the degree in "culinary arts".

I think the point is one person can't say something is "art" (period matter of fact) just because one person thinks it is.So what one person thinks is "art" in the stripping industry another person is not "wrong" for saying its not.Or that they dont believe any stripping is "art" doesn't mean they don't "understand art' or the difference between art and "mundane".Maybe some view the "mundane" as art.I took a picture one time of an over ripe banana the was on our banana hanger and had started to peel its self.I thought it was art non one else did.

I am not arguing that what is art is not up to individual definition. I am merely arguing that stripping can be viewed as an art. I am not arguing you must accept my view. At worse, I am saying that, if you don't understand stripping can be an art, then you don't understand art as I do. And what's wrong with that? I think it would be obvious.

 

[Aquitaine]

I think I already "got " the distinction .I know the difference in going to a Japanese steak house or a sushi bar and watching the cooks and watching someone dump a can of Chunky soup in a saucepan on the stove.And their is the degree in "culinary arts".

I think the point is one person can't say something is "art" (period matter of fact) just because one person thinks it is.So what one person thinks is "art" in the stripping industry another person is not "wrong" for saying its not.Or that they dont believe any stripping is "art" doesn't mean they don't "understand art' or the difference between art and "mundane".Maybe some view the "mundane" as art.I took a picture one time of an over ripe banana the was on our banana hanger and had started to peel its self.I thought it was art non one else did.

Oh of course, I fully consider "Art" to be subjective. So as that permits you to label, say... stripping as "mundane", others are able to label some stripping as "art".

I think going back to the original theme of this thread, should Stripping be accepted by Feminists as a method of employment and hobby, so long as the environments are safe and respectful?

Personally, I'm leaning more towards "yes" - however my criticism is with the industry and working conditions/worker's rights etc, rather than with the act itself.

What about you?

 

[Sunstone]

I think going back to the original theme of this thread, should Stripping be accepted by Feminists as a method of employment and hobby, so long as the environments are safe and respectful?

Personally, I'm leaning more towards "yes" - however my criticism is with the industry and working conditions/worker's rights etc, rather than with the act itself.

What about you?

I have extensive criticisms of the industry, working conditions, worker's rights, etc. And I even think the act itself could be improved upon in most cases. But like you, my primary criticisms are with the industry, etc, rather than with the act.

 

[Aquitaine]

I have extensive criticisms of the industry, working conditions, worker's rights, etc. And I even think the act itself could be improved upon in most cases. But like you, my primary criticisms are with the industry, etc, rather than with the act.

Out of curiosity (given this is somewhat still relevant to the thread) do you also hold that view of Sex work in general? That, assuming it was done in a safe, professional, and heavily-regulated environment with decent worker's rights/representation, as well as legal protection for the workers, along with medical/mental health support available, would you support the right for said employment to exist legally?

 

[ignition]

so long as the environments are safe and respectful?

It might be safe but it ain't goin' be respectable. Na ah.

 

[Aquitaine]

It might be safe but it ain't goin' be respectable. Na ah.

Depends on one's attitude to sexuality I suppose. Maybe people look-down on sex workers because we've been conditioned to view (primarily) Female sexuality as taboo?

 

[Sunstone]

Out of curiosity (given this is somewhat still relevant to the thread) do you also hold that view of Sex work in general? That, assuming it was done in a safe, professional, and heavily-regulated environment with decent worker's rights/representation, as well as legal protection for the workers, along with medical/mental health support available, would you support the right for said employment to exist legally?

Yes. But definitely with the qualifications you've mentioned. The environment and conditions most sex workers are in today are a cross between tragic and criminal. If it were up to me, I would not only do the things you've listed, but I would go so far as to license johns so that any john who abused a sex worker would loose his privilege of employing one.

 

[ignition]

Depends on one's attitude to sexuality I suppose. Maybe people look-down on sex workers because we've been conditioned to view (primarily) Female sexuality as taboo?

Maybe, I don't know. It's a good shout.

 

[Sunstone]

Depends on one's attitude to sexuality I suppose. Maybe people look-down on sex workers because we've been conditioned to view (primarily) Female sexuality as taboo?

I think the notion that female sexuality is taboo is behind much -- albeit not all -- contempt for sex work. But that's just my guess.

 

[ignition]

Depends on one's attitude to sexuality I suppose. Maybe people look-down on sex workers because we've been conditioned to view (primarily) Female sexuality as taboo?

I think there are many other reasons though, such as social status, sexual "conservativeness" etc. It's generally considered not socially acceptable anyway, which is why both the provider of the sex and the consumer usually choose to do it "discrete", at least here in the UK. I mean I've never seen a sex worker. Unlike in places like Chicago, where there's a hooker in every street corner. And if the police try to arrest them, they just sleep with the police! It's actually been calculated that a hooker has a higher chance of sleeping with one than being arrested by one haha