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Should Feminists be encouraging women to be strippers?

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
Yes. But definitely with the qualifications you've mentioned. The environment and conditions most sex workers are in today are a cross between tragic and criminal. If it were up to me, I would not only do the things you've listed, but I would go so far as to license johns so that any john who abused a sex worker would loose his privilege of employing one.

Requiring the customers to have a licence plus background checks etc, that's a really good idea, Sunstone. Never would have thought of that!

Yeah, I'm for legalising and regulating sex work, because let's face it "the world's oldest profession" isn't going away anytime soon, and criminalizing it only makes things worse for those employed in it. I'd rather it be legal, heavily regulated and safe, as opposed to illegal and essentially underground.

I think society as a whole has a long way to go before we can reach that stage, because it would involve "admitting" Sex work not only exists, but needs to be addressed rather than simply being swept under the rug - pretending it's not there.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Requiring the customers to have a licence plus background checks etc, that's a really good idea, Sunstone. Never would have thought of that!

Yeah, I'm for legalising and regulating sex work, because let's face it "the world's oldest profession" isn't going away anytime soon, and criminalizing it only makes things worse for those employed in it. I'd rather it be legal, heavily regulated and safe, as opposed to illegal and essentially underground.

I think society as a whole has a long way to go before we can reach that stage, because it would involve "admitting" Sex work not only exists, but needs to be addressed rather than simply being swept under the rug - pretending it's not there.

I give it about 20 to 50 years before America as a whole is mature enough to do what you've outlined. I don't know about other countries. But even if a country does what you've outlined, it will be an uphill battle to keep it safe. There will always be forces wanting to criminalize it again.
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
I think there are many other reasons though, such as social status, sexual "conservativeness" etc. It's generally considered not socially acceptable anyway, which is why both the provider of the sex and the consumer usually choose to do it "discrete", at least here in the UK. I mean I've never seen a sex worker. Unlike in places like Chicago, where there's a hooker in every street corner. And if the police try to arrest them, they just sleep with the police! It's actually been calculated that a hooker has a higher chance of sleeping with one than being arrested by one haha

Aye, I know what you mean with the Sexual conservativeness. To be honest, I'm fine with that, some people are more open towards sexuality, others are more private. But I do have to wonder, is some of this Sexual conservativeness a result - or cause - of Female Sexuality being seen as taboo?

BTW a fellow Brit here - and it's way past both of our bedtimes! :D
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Question: How do you keep a Brit up way past his or her bedtime for an enjoyable conversation?

Answer: Make the conversation about sex workers. :D
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
Namaste Penumbra-ji,

Sorry for the late reply. You brought up good questions and therefore I had to do some research.

Specifically the part where it says women call the shots and men obey.

"The ruling sex, having the power to diffuse its own outlooks, tends to generalize its specific ideology. Should the trends of the subordinate sex run counter, they are likely to be suppressed all the more forcibly in proportion as the dominate sex is more overwhelming. The result is that the hegemony of male deities is usually associated with the dominance of men and the hegemony of female deities with the dominance of women."
(The Dominant Sex by M. and M. Vaerting; quoted in When God Was A Woman by Merlin Stone: The Paradise Papers; Virago Limited: Quarted Books. 1976.)

(Egypt - "While the husbands stay home and weave")
"He (Diodorus) wrote, "It is for these reasons, in fact, that it was ordained that the queen should have greater power and honor than the king and that among private persons the wife should enjoy authority over the husband, husbands agreeing in the marriage contract that they will be obedient in all things to their wives….In Egypt, the archaic system of mother-kin, with its preference for women over men in matters of property and inheritance, lasted down to Roman times….There is further evidence that Egypt was a land where women had great freedom and control of their own lives, and perhaps of their husbands' as well. Herodotus of Greece, several centuries before Diodorus, wrote that in Egypt, 'Women go in the marketplace, transact affairs and occupy themselves with business, while the husbands stay home and weave.""
(The Dominant Sex by M. and M. Vaerting; quoted in When God Was A Woman by Merlin Stone: The Paradise Papers; Virago Limited: Quarted Books. 1976.)

(Ethiopia and Libya - "All Authority Was Vested in the Woman")
"It was Diodorus who reported that the women of Ethiopia carried arms, practiced communal marriage and raised their children so communally that they often confused even themselves as to who the natural mother had been. In parts of Libya, where the Goddess Neith was highly esteemed, accounts of Amazon women still lingered even in Roman times. Diodorus described a nation in Libya as follows:

All authority was vested in the woman, who discharged every kind of public duty. The men looked after domestic affairs just as the women do among ourselves and did as they were told by their wives. They were not allowed to undertake war service or to exercise any functions of government, or to fill any public office, such as might have given them more spirit to set themselves up against the women.

Diodurs wrote of warrior women existing in Libya, reporting that these women had formed into armies which had invaded other lands."
(The Dominant Sex by M. and M. Vaerting; quoted in When God Was A Woman by Merlin Stone: The Paradise Papers; Virago Limited: Quarted Books. 1976.)

(Sumer - "The Women of Former Days Used to take Two Husbands…")
(Professor Saggs wrote in 1963:)
"The status of women was certainly much higher in the early Sumerian city state than it subsequently…" The Urukagina reform is dated at about 2300BCE. It reads, "The women of former days used to take two husbands but the women o today would be stoned with stones if they did this." Polyandry has been reported in the Dravidian Goddess-worshipping areas of India even in this century…. In the early periods of Elam the deities appear to have been served by female and male clergy, the men appearing naked before the high priestess…"
My favorite: Stone quotes Sinclair Hood from The Minoans, Crete in the Bronze Age: "This is the fearless and natural emphasis on sexual life that ran through all religious expression and was made obvious in the provocative dress of both sexes and their easy mingling…"
(The Dominant Sex by M. and M. Vaerting; quoted in When God Was A Woman by Merlin Stone: The Paradise Papers; Virago Limited: Quarted Books. 1976.)

Even in the Sarmatians you described, generally the female warriors are virgins. Once they become mothers, they tend not to have been warriors unless there was some great need.
"Moreover, said Herodotus, "no girl shall wed till she has killed a man in battle"."
I don't know what could be more "macho" than killing in order to be wed...apparently, this law was created by the women themselves (click the following):
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_Herodotus/Book_4

The way you seem to be presenting matriarchal societies is that they're some mirror image of patriarchal ones, with women going to war instead of men, with women being the ones to procure a lot of sex, etc. But historically, matriarchal societies have not really been like that.
As you can see, some obviously did go to war. Which is so hot, in my opinion, hehe. So, historically not all of them have been the same - not all of them wore black and yellow, ya know?;):rolleyes:
- - - - - - - - -
In a man's world (patriarchal), men have exploited women. But, in a matriarchal society, where, in the citations of the case studies provided, women were doing business while their men were in the house...what makes one think that (sexual) exploitation of men didn't happen? Read this:

"The religion of the Goddess (which is matriarchal), wherever it was practiced throughout history, has always been sex positive. The most famous of the ancient rituals is the Hieros Gamos, or Sacred marriage ritual. Records of this ceremony have been dated as far back as early Sumerian, about 5500 years ago. In this ritual the high priestess acting as avatar of The Goddess had sex with the ruler of the country to show the Goddess's acceptance him as ruler.."
A Brief History of Religious Sex
Yes, a female priestess, pretty much held the king's you know what by the balls...

It seems you don't approve of my defense of a matriarchal society. Well, I don't want to anger you since you are a moderator and I will cease my childish fascination of matriarchy... and if I have angered you or offended you, please forgive me, my dear Goddess!

Regards,
M.V.
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
But I do have to wonder, is some of this Sexual conservativeness a result - or cause - of Female Sexuality being seen as taboo?

I think you've nailed a great deal of the contempt for sex workers of all stripes. But one might go a small step further and see that taboo as a prelude to an attempt to control female sexuality.
 
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MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I think you've nailed a great deal of the contempt for sex workers of all stripes. But one might go a small step further and see that contempt as a prelude to an attempt to control female sexuality.

I agree. :yes:

Notice how we haven't yet brought up the lap dance I gave you a long time ago, and that you still owe me money? I mean, I think I've done a great job in keeping that out of the conversation so far, and making the debate about the topic at hand, and not about how you still owe me money. You know what I'm saying?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I agree. :yes:

I think Aquitaine really hit that one on the head.

Notice how we haven't yet brought up the lap dance I gave you a long time ago, and that you still owe me money? I mean, I think I've done a great job in keeping that out of the conversation so far, and making the debate about the topic at hand, and not about how you still owe me money. You know what I'm saying?

I've been secretly admiring your restraint in that regard. And also admiring your complete and unabashed lack of restraint in my fantasies of giving you lavish foot massages. Just sayin'.
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
I think you've nailed a great deal of the contempt for sex workers of all stripes. But one might go a small step further and see that contempt as a prelude to an attempt to control female sexuality.

It's interesting you mention that because I have always believed Females have a natural err... "weapon" over Males: the choice of a mate. Men approach the Women, and compete for her approval, she then chooses the most ideal candidate. It seems that throughout the most of our history, we have sought to suppress Female Sexuality in order to essentially "disarm" and control them. Forced marriage is a good example of how a woman's choice of mate is essentially dictated and nullified.

I feel the same for the very conservative dress standards imposed on Women in some countries. It seems to all be about limiting her power by nullifying her natural advantage to choose a mate, amplified by suppressing expressions of her Sexuality. Then there's things like FGM, the Clitoris (designed primarily for sexual pleasure) is removed, ergo another attack on her sexuality.
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
Namaste,

Sunstone, was a consensus reached on whether your friend fusing Thai and Indian dance accounted for cultural appropriation? I can't find the posts regarding the matter. I wrote a reply to a member who was speaking on the matter, but I can't find it :( No biggie. I was just wondering if the topic was delved upon further..

M.V.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
It's interesting you mention that because I have always believed Females have a natural err... "weapon" over Males: the choice of a mate. Men approach the Women, and compete for her approval, she then chooses the most ideal candidate. It seems that throughout the most of our history, we have sought to suppress Female Sexuality in order to essentially "disarm" and control them. Forced marriage is a good example of how a woman's choice of mate is essentially dictated and nullified.

I feel the same for the very conservative dress standards imposed on Women in some countries. It seems to all be about limiting her power by nullifying her natural advantage to choose a mate, amplified by suppressing expressions of her Sexuality. Then there's things like FGM, the Clitoris (designed primarily for sexual pleasure) is removed, ergo another attack on her sexuality.

I'm pleased to say we see eye to eye on this. I think we can interpret some cultural institutions as by and large means to limit and control women's reproductive choices. And it can be relatively subtle. For instance, not so long ago, women were portrayed even in scientific literature as passive partners in picking mates. They were supposed to be like cows. They would accept whatever bull ruled the herd. Those notions now look like so much propaganda designed to confuse women into thinking they should not have a choice in the matter.

A few years ago, there was a study done male and female interaction in single's bars. The study found that women exercise active choice in whom they encourage to approach them. Males who approached women who did not first invite their approach ended up put off, rejected, far and away more often than males who approached women who invited their approach (through eye contact and body language). Far from being passive bovines about mating, the women in the study were exercising choice.
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
मैत्रावरुणिः;3417546 said:
Namaste,

Sunstone, was a consensus reached on whether your friend fusing Thai and Indian dance accounted for cultural appropriation? I can't find the posts regarding the matter. I wrote a reply to a member who was speaking on the matter, but I can't find it :( No biggie. I was just wondering if the topic was delved upon further..

M.V.

I don't think a consensus was reached. In part, perhaps, because the conversation was off topic.
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
I'm pleased to say we see eye to eye on this. I think we can interpret some cultural institutions as by and large means to limit and control women's reproductive choices. And it can be relatively subtle. For instance, not so long ago, women were portrayed even in scientific literature as passive partners in picking mates. They were supposed to be like cows. They would accept whatever bull ruled the herd. Those notions now look like so much propaganda designed to confuse women into thinking they should not have a choice in the matter.

A few years ago, there was a study done male and female interaction in single's bars. The study found that women exercise active choice in whom they encourage to approach them. Males who approached women who did not first invite their approach ended up put off, rejected, far and away more often than males who approached women who invited their approach (through eye contact and body language). Far from being passive bovines about mating, the women in the study were exercising choice.

Interesting. I suppose that's how some Men would want it: take a trip down to the "Woman farm" and collect one. Virtually no need to compete, no effort, almost guaranteed sex basically. Almost as if some of the players wanted to "cheat" by essentially dismantling the game and it's rules.

It's scary when you think about it, because a Woman's choice is a very powerful and important thing - she is controlling her future and which traits she passes on (assuming she decides to have kids). When that power, that ability, that safeguard of choice is eliminated..... then a Woman basically becomes robbed, cheated, disarmed. :cover:
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
When that power, that ability, that safeguard of choice is eliminated..... then a Woman basically becomes robbed, cheated, disarmed. :cover:

One of the things that most interests me, Aquitaine, is that not all women see it that way. It seems to be largely dependent on which culture one is raised in, or in which family one is raised, but a significant number of women -- even in very liberal countries -- do not see restraints on their reproductive choices for what they are.

I think in our two countries, one of the things that helps confuse some women is the fantasy that their future spouse will someday appear like a white knight or prince charming to sweep them off their feet and bring about everlasting happiness. The story is basically telling women, "Wait for the right man to come along and make all the necessary choices for you."
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
One of the things that most interests me, Aquitaine, is that not all women see it that way. It seems to be largely dependent on which culture one is raised in, or in which family one is raised, but a significant number of women -- even in very liberal countries -- do not see restraints on their reproductive choices for what they are.

I think in our two countries, one of the things that helps confuse some women is the fantasy that their future spouse will someday appear like a white knight or prince charming to sweep them off their feet and bring about everlasting happiness. The story is basically telling women, "Wait for the right man to come along and make all the necessary choices for you."

Yeah that's true. Hell one only has to look at some Disney princess movies! :biglaugh:

In fact, not long ago we were in a thread about women maintaining their virginity in order to "attract a rich man". :eek:
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
In fact, not long ago we were in a thread about women maintaining their virginity in order to "attract a rich man". :eek:

Some ideas are zombies. No matter how often or frequently they are refuted, they still shuffle back to life, trying to eat your brains.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
मैत्रावरुणिः;3417492 said:
Namaste Penumbra-ji,

Sorry for the late reply. You brought up good questions and therefore I had to do some research.
Interesting. I see that all of your references are from a singular source, originally published in 1923.

"The ruling sex, having the power to diffuse its own outlooks, tends to generalize its specific ideology. Should the trends of the subordinate sex run counter, they are likely to be suppressed all the more forcibly in proportion as the dominate sex is more overwhelming. The result is that the hegemony of male deities is usually associated with the dominance of men and the hegemony of female deities with the dominance of women."
(The Dominant Sex by M. and M. Vaerting; quoted in When God Was A Woman by Merlin Stone: The Paradise Papers; Virago Limited: Quarted Books. 1976.)
I looked up this chapter. It's not talking about a matriarchal society, and "the ruling sex" is not talking about women specifically. In context, she's talking about how males tend to have a preference for male deities, females tend to have a preference for female deities, and the section jumps around with a few examples from various cultures, with about one sentence devoted to each culture. She's speaking in broad generalities there without any elaborate examples, saying that in various cultures, "the ruling sex" tends to do this, or "the ruling sex: tends to do that, without being specific about which sex and which culture she's referring to with those statements.

(Egypt - "While the husbands stay home and weave")
"He (Diodorus) wrote, "It is for these reasons, in fact, that it was ordained that the queen should have greater power and honor than the king and that among private persons the wife should enjoy authority over the husband, husbands agreeing in the marriage contract that they will be obedient in all things to their wives….In Egypt, the archaic system of mother-kin, with its preference for women over men in matters of property and inheritance, lasted down to Roman times….There is further evidence that Egypt was a land where women had great freedom and control of their own lives, and perhaps of their husbands' as well. Herodotus of Greece, several centuries before Diodorus, wrote that in Egypt, 'Women go in the marketplace, transact affairs and occupy themselves with business, while the husbands stay home and weave.""
(The Dominant Sex by M. and M. Vaerting; quoted in When God Was A Woman by Merlin Stone: The Paradise Papers; Virago Limited: Quarted Books. 1976.)
The blue part in particular makes it appear to be a very weak reference. This book as a whole seems to loosely quote various people that made short statements about cultures. It's not any sort of real case study on a culture.

(Ethiopia and Libya - "All Authority Was Vested in the Woman")
"It was Diodorus who reported that the women of Ethiopia carried arms, practiced communal marriage and raised their children so communally that they often confused even themselves as to who the natural mother had been. In parts of Libya, where the Goddess Neith was highly esteemed, accounts of Amazon women still lingered even in Roman times. Diodorus described a nation in Libya as follows:

All authority was vested in the woman, who discharged every kind of public duty. The men looked after domestic affairs just as the women do among ourselves and did as they were told by their wives. They were not allowed to undertake war service or to exercise any functions of government, or to fill any public office, such as might have given them more spirit to set themselves up against the women.

Diodurs wrote of warrior women existing in Libya, reporting that these women had formed into armies which had invaded other lands."
(The Dominant Sex by M. and M. Vaerting; quoted in When God Was A Woman by Merlin Stone: The Paradise Papers; Virago Limited: Quarted Books. 1976.)
That's an interesting reference, but she's basically only quoting Diodorus, a Greek historian, who built a lot of his work on previous historians, and who doesn't exactly have a flattering reputation for accuracy.

So this is Vaerting quoting Diodorus making a statement about what may be an unidentified Libyan culture?

(Sumer - "The Women of Former Days Used to take Two Husbands…")
(Professor Saggs wrote in 1963:)
"The status of women was certainly much higher in the early Sumerian city state than it subsequently…" The Urukagina reform is dated at about 2300BCE. It reads, "The women of former days used to take two husbands but the women o today would be stoned with stones if they did this." Polyandry has been reported in the Dravidian Goddess-worshipping areas of India even in this century…. In the early periods of Elam the deities appear to have been served by female and male clergy, the men appearing naked before the high priestess…"
My favorite: Stone quotes Sinclair Hood from The Minoans, Crete in the Bronze Age: "This is the fearless and natural emphasis on sexual life that ran through all religious expression and was made obvious in the provocative dress of both sexes and their easy mingling…"
(The Dominant Sex by M. and M. Vaerting; quoted in When God Was A Woman by Merlin Stone: The Paradise Papers; Virago Limited: Quarted Books. 1976.)
I'm not sure how this relates to my request for references about women calling the shots and men obeying. There's nothing like that in there.

I'm assuming you're using the reference for the polyandry? Polyandry has indeed existed, but in very rare and limited circumstances. There's a biological difference there: a man can reproduce with a practically unlimited number of sexual partners if given the opportunity, but women become pregnant for lengthy periods of time after being fertilized. So it's a very suboptimal pairing pattern to have multiple males linked with one female.

One of the more common displays of polyandry, as rarely as it does occur, is fraternal polyandry, where a woman marries one or more brothers. And the primary reason for that cultural behavior, is that in some patriarchal cultures, the eldest son inherits all of the property. For some cultures that do this, it means other sons have to go their own way without any inheritance. For other cultures, they solve this by keeping the sons in the same family- they both marry the same woman, and the eldest son inherits the property which basically means the other son inherits property too, because he's in the same marriage.
Source: Goldstein, Melvyn (1987). Natural History. Natural History Magazine. pp. 39–48.

"Moreover, said Herodotus, "no girl shall wed till she has killed a man in battle"."
I don't know what could be more "macho" than killing in order to be wed...apparently, this law was created by the women themselves (click the following):
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_Herodotus/Book_4

As you can see, some obviously did go to war. Which is so hot, in my opinion, hehe. So, historically not all of them have been the same - not all of them wore black and yellow, ya know?;):rolleyes:
- - - - - - - - -
I agree that this sounds hardcore, but it's not a reversal if males are warriors too. I never said there are no cultures with female warriors. In most cultures around the world, men tend to dominate the warrior profession, with some exceptions where they do have substantial involvement from women. In matriarchal societies, it generally doesn't all switch around, with the warriors consisting all of women. In those cultures, men tend to still be a lot of the warriors. Doing otherwise would, in many cases, not be an optimal use of resources.

In a man's world (patriarchal), men have exploited women. But, in a matriarchal society, where, in the citations of the case studies provided, women were doing business while their men were in the house...what makes one think that (sexual) exploitation of men didn't happen?
What makes one think that it does happen?

You didn't provide actual case studies, you provided one book originally published 90 years ago with a feminist writer (for whom I can find almost no background or credentials on- she was a teacher and writer in Germany) who skims with very short references to other historians that make short references to various cultures.

Read this:

"The religion of the Goddess (which is matriarchal), wherever it was practiced throughout history, has always been sex positive. The most famous of the ancient rituals is the Hieros Gamos, or Sacred marriage ritual. Records of this ceremony have been dated as far back as early Sumerian, about 5500 years ago. In this ritual the high priestess acting as avatar of The Goddess had sex with the ruler of the country to show the Goddess's acceptance him as ruler.."
A Brief History of Religious Sex
Yes, a female priestess, pretty much held the king's you know what by the balls...
Yes, some Goddess religions are indeed sex positive, and that's a good thing imo. This reference has little to do with what we've been talking about, and I think you're making a huge jump by saying that the priestess has by the king by the balls based on that very short statement about their religious sex ritual.

It seems you don't approve of my defense of a matriarchal society.
I don't approve of the defense of your argument, that's all.

Well, I don't want to anger you since you are a moderator, and if I have, please forgive me, my dear Goddess!

Regards,
M.V.
I don't get angry, and me being a staff member has no relevance here.
 
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