Should Feminists be encouraging women to be strippers?

[Poeticus]

Namaste, Penumbra-ji:

Interesting. I see that all of your references are from a singular source, originally published in 1923.

Who should I cite? Women-haters?

I looked up this chapter. It's not talking about a matriarchal society, and "the ruling sex" is not talking about women specifically. In context, she's talking about how males tend to have a preference for male deities, females tend to have a preference for female deities, and the section jumps around with a few examples from various cultures, with about one sentence devoted to each culture. She's speaking in broad generalities there without any elaborate examples, saying that in various cultures, "the ruling sex" tends to do this, or "the ruling sex: tends to do that, without being specific about which sex and which culture she's referring to with those statements.

That paragraph was a premise for the case studies. The paragraph showed that when Goddess worship was prevalent, women were in power. Nothing more. Nothing less.

The blue part in particular makes it appear to be a very weak reference. This book as a whole seems to loosely quote various people that made short statements about cultures. It's not any sort of real case study on a culture.

I don't think Diodorus hid in the bushes with a notepad jotting down notes now, did he? Who do you want me to cite? Aborigines from Australia?

That's an interesting reference, but she's basically only quoting Diodorus, a Greek historian, who built a lot of his work on previous historians, and who doesn't exactly have a flattering reputation for accuracy.

If that is the case, we can cross off colonial historians of the 1800s and the early 1900s with their obvious bias (their contempt for the people that they colonized). The thing is, sources of recent years all cited her, even wikipedia cited Stone, therefore I used her.

So this is Vaerting quoting Diodorus making a statement about what may be an unidentified Libyan culture?
I'm not sure how this relates to my request for references about women calling the shots and men obeying. There's nothing like that in there.

What? The quotes showed that women were in control in those societies and barred men from taking certain offices and acquiring military power... if that isn't bossing menfolk around, I don't think I am human...maybe I am an alien from Nibiru?

I'm assuming you're using the reference for the polyandry? Polyandry has indeed existed, but in very rare and limited circumstances. There's a biological difference there: a man can reproduce with a practically unlimited number of sexual partners if given the opportunity, but women become pregnant for lengthy periods of time after being fertilized. So it's a very suboptimal pairing pattern to have multiple males linked with one female.

Polyandry was just a small candy-like gift in the quotes. I shouldn't have even used it; I wasn't even using it as an example to show females ruling over men in absolute terms. But, even the mere presence of polyandry shows a pro-female attitude, nonetheless. Which definitely goes against: "Yeah bro! I have tens of wives - even 50, brah!"

I agree that this sounds hardcore, but it's not a reversal if males are warriors too. I never said there are no cultures with female warriors. In most cultures around the world, men tend to dominate the warrior profession, with some exceptions where they do have substantial involvement from women. In matriarchal societies, it generally doesn't all switch around, with the warriors consisting all of women. In those cultures, men tend to still be a lot of the warriors. Doing otherwise would, in many cases, not be an optimal use of resources.

You missed my point. My point was that the females in that society made a rule by themselves that in order to marry they have to kill a man. "Herodotus called them Androktones ("killers of men"), and he stated that in the Scythian language they were called Oiorpata, which he asserted had this meaning."
(derived from: Hinge, George (2005). "Herodot zur skythischen Sprache. Arimaspen, Amazonen und die Entdeckung des Schwarzen Meeres". Glotta (in German) 81: 86–115.)

"No men were permitted to have sexual encounters or reside in Amazon country; but once a year, in order to prevent their race from dying out, they visited the Gargareans, a neighbouring tribe. The male children who were the result of these visits were either killed, sent back to their fathers or exposed in the wilderness to fend for themselves; the girls were kept and brought up by their mothers, and trained in agricultural pursuits, hunting, and the art of war. In other versions when the Amazons went to war they would not kill all the men. Some they would take as slaves, and once or twice a year they would have sex with their slaves."
[(derived from [click]: LacusCurtius ? Strabo's Geography ? Book*XI Chapter*5) and quoted from: Amazons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)]
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"Tacitus noted in his Germania that many Germanic tribes of the time (circa 98 C.E.) "believe that there resides in women an element of holiness and prophecy, and so they do not scorn to ask their advice or lightly disregard their replies. He goes on to observe that in "the nations of the Sitones.... woman is the ruling sex.""
(Tacitus, Cornelius, Germania (A.D. 98), as accessed June 8, 2013, paragraph 8. - - - - - Tacitus, Cornelius, Germania, op. cit., paragraph 45. - - - - - quoted from: Matriarchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

"Few ancient civilizations enabled women to achieve important social positions. In Ancient Egypt, there are not only examples indicating women high officials were not so rare, but more surprising (for its time), there are women in the highest office, that of Pharaoh. More than a kind of feminism, this is a sign of the importance of theocracy in Egyptian society."
(quoted from: Women in Ancient Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
[if these women Pharaohs weren't bossing men around, I don't think any history is to be taken correctly anymore...]

How could I forget one of the most awesome women in Asian history? Tomyris of the Massagetae, who ruled over this tribe as Mother and as Queen. It is reported that they were of the Scytho-Sarmatian stock, united under Tomyris. Here we clearly have an example of a female bossing menfold around. All the power to her! Furthermore, she decapitated Cyrus when he asked her hand in marriage after he tried to conquer her land and in the process ended up being responsible for her son's death - so she went bonkers - and rightly so, in my opinion. She basically dipped his head in a bowl of his own blood - as her male warriors cheered on in full glory. It is important to note that she didn't have a King. She was the sole ruler of this massive North Iranic tribal-nation. It is most likely that a random member of her tribal-nation may have fathered her son - which purports the matriarchal spirit and notion of free-sex.
(Tomyris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
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Some societies had females as leaders. Some societies had males as leaders. Some societies had females giving out the rules - meaning the norms were very pro-women due to their Goddess worship and their matriarchal tendencies. And, vice versa for pro-men societies. I don't know why we are even arguing. Females that engaged in warfare like the Libyans and the pre-Sarmations (Ha-Mazan) had sex with men that they captured. I don't know why this is seen as something bad; women had every right to turn the tables against men during that time period. Matriarchal societies brought their egalitarianism, I will grant you that, but they weren't 100% goody goody, especially not the ones of North Iranian stock. Thus, if we have a matriarchal society again (which I am totally down for), I don't see how it is impossible for sex trading to occur. Excuse my French, but hell, even many hard working women today engage in secret orgies (the Dancing Bear phenomenon?). If the matriarchal society became prominent, I doubt that these "orgies" would subside. I will grant you the notion and agree with the fact that matriarchal societies are more peaceful. This is something any college student learns in his/her Intro to Conflict Resolution course during his/her freshman year if he/she goes into the line of politics or international affairs.

If you have time, can you provide me with a few arguments with citations that show the stance of women not engaging in sex trading if a matriarchal society all of a sudden sprung up? The argument has to go both ways, dear Goddess.

I would like to conclude with thus (as I stated much much earlier in a post which started this debate): if the US was all of a sudden turned into a matriarchal society, strip clubs would still exist - and new ones for the benefit of women would blossom across the country, because the desire to enjoy such facilities isn't solely man-perspected. And, this isn't something to be ashamed about. I am sure many women are comfortable with their sexuality and wish to partake in the sexual freedom that is expounded upon American males without much scrutiny whereas the women are quickly scrutinized - unfortunately.
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Regards,
M.V.

 

[Alceste]

Magic Mike wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. I was ready to give it one star out of five, but I was pleasantly surprised to give it three. There really is a story, and it wasn't horrible. It was only slightly cliche.

But Bachelor Party? Heck yeah. I remember that scene with the footlong.

I felt like magic mike pulled a bait and switch on me. We thought it was going to be lots of man bums and got some zinfandel and chocolate for the occasion. Then half way through it turned into a retarded boy movie about drugs, helping out your buddies and fighting, and there were no more bums until the very end. Boo.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

It's interesting you mention that because I have always believed Females have a natural err... "weapon" over Males: the choice of a mate. Men approach the Women, and compete for her approval, she then chooses the most ideal candidate. It seems that throughout the most of our history, we have sought to suppress Female Sexuality in order to essentially "disarm" and control them. Forced marriage is a good example of how a woman's choice of mate is essentially dictated and nullified.

I feel the same for the very conservative dress standards imposed on Women in some countries. It seems to all be about limiting her power by nullifying her natural advantage to choose a mate, amplified by suppressing expressions of her Sexuality. Then there's things like FGM, the Clitoris (designed primarily for sexual pleasure) is removed, ergo another attack on her sexuality.

If it's "female power" to choose a mate, shouldn't it be the male that makes a spectacle of himself and makes up the majority of sex workers?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I felt like magic mike pulled a bait and switch on me. We thought it was going to be lots of man bums and got some zinfandel and chocolate for the occasion. Then half way through it turned into a retarded boy movie about drugs, helping out your buddies and fighting, and there were no more bums until the very end. Boo.

So,
Wait a second, let me get this straight....you didn't watch the movie for the artistic expression of shaking that a*se...
Do you not see the cultural significance of strip clubs?
Don't you know people go there for the conversation.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

So,
Wait a second, let me get this straight....you didn't watch the movie for the artistic expression of shaking that a*se...
Do you not see the cultural significance of strip clubs?
Don't you know people go there for the conversation.

People go for the attention. Men, women, gay, straight, trans, doesn't matter. To get a confident person who takes their clothes off and looks at you with bedroom eyes is what people go for and what they pay for.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I felt like magic mike pulled a bait and switch on me. We thought it was going to be lots of man bums and got some zinfandel and chocolate for the occasion. Then half way through it turned into a retarded boy movie about drugs, helping out your buddies and fighting, and there were no more bums until the very end. Boo.

The drug story came out of the blue, which I thought was an ineffective deviation. But overall, it was better than I expected.

Only thing is, the Chippendales are WAY better as entertainers. At least when I saw them.

 

[Alceste]

So,
Wait a second, let me get this straight....you didn't watch the movie for the artistic expression of shaking that a*se...
Do you not see the cultural significance of strip clubs?
Don't you know people go there for the conversation.

Nope. We were having a girl's night. We just wanted to see Matthew McCaughnahy's bum.

 

[Alceste]

The drug story came out of the blue, which I thought was an ineffective deviation. But overall, it was better than I expected.

Only thing is, the Chippendales are WAY better as entertainers. At least when I saw them.

I felt weirdly objectified myself when I saw male strippers. They try to get the mostly female audience to make a lot of noise, scream and generally be idiots. Not like a female strip club where you could practically have a business lunch it's so quiet, everybody just sulking over their beer... I was all, why do I have to make any noise at all? Just gimme the bums.

Plus the men were awful dancers and they kept their panties on. I could have just gone to the beach and seen as much, but without the silliness and bad dancing.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I felt weirdly objectified myself when I saw male strippers. They try to get the mostly female audience to make a lot of noise, scream and generally be idiots. Not like a female strip club where you could practically have a business lunch it's so quiet, everybody just sulking over their beer... I was all, why do I have to make any noise at all? Just gimme the bums.

Plus the men were awful dancers and they kept their panties on. I could have just gone to the beach and seen as much, but without the silliness and bad dancing.

It's why I think the Vegas Chippendales have lasted this long. The gimmick-y shirtless bowtie and spandex pants is rather the trademark, but it was the show that had me. I was really surprised, and really turned on. I went as the matron of honor for a friend of mine who was getting married, and I planned the night to include the show, thinking that it's just for her and I'll look forward to the night out dancing at the club afterward. But was I really surprised to see a show that sexy on stage.

And they go full monty, though they face the back when the thongs are ripped off.

I've seen other traveling shows of the Chippendales, and they just aren't nearly as good. The Vegas fellas are REALLY good at dancing, gymnastics, singing, connecting with the audience, set design, costume design, etc.

IMO, I would say they're almost as effective as burlesque dancers. Almost. I give mad respect to burlesque, though I was pleasantly surprised to see the Chippendales be that effective. I attribute their success, though, as branding themselves really well.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

People go for the attention. Men, women, gay, straight, trans, doesn't matter. To get a confident person who takes their clothes off and looks at you with bedroom eyes is what people go for and what they pay for.

I don't really care who goes...paying for someone to pretend they want you sexually, a bit sad really.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I don't really care who goes...paying for someone to pretend they want you sexually, a bit sad really.

That's fine. It's not for everyone. I find various film adaptations of live theatrical masterpieces watered down and sad, and that anyone who hasn't seen a good live musical or dance performance is really missing out. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Different strokes for different folks.

Not me. I like all kinds of strokes.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

That's fine. It's not for everyone. I find various film adaptations of live theatrical masterpieces watered down and sad, and that anyone who hasn't seen a good live musical or dance performance is really missing out. Different strokes for different folks.

A bit different though, I mean the customers are sad, not the performance.

 

[Aquitaine]

If it's "female power" to choose a mate, shouldn't it be the male that makes a spectacle of himself and makes up the majority of sex workers?

I don't see why not. So long as the majority of demand comes from Women and Gay men. However, it currently seems to be Heterosexual men who make up the bulk of the demand.

Funnily enough, that reminds me of a documentary I saw a while back of a tribe in Africa, where once every year-or-so the males dress up and wear body/face paints and dance in a ceremony to attract a female from the audience for a one-nighter. There were roughly 25 men performing for 3 women who would pick and choose the men they wanted to sleep with that night.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I don't see why not. So long as the majority of demand comes from Women and Gay men. However, it currently seems to be Heterosexual men who make up the bulk of the demand.

Funnily enough, that reminds me of a documentary I saw a while back of a tribe in Africa, where once every year-or-so the males dress up and wear body/face paints and dance in a ceremony to attract a female from the audience for a one-nighter. There were roughly 25 men performing for 3 women who would pick and choose the men they wanted to sleep with that night.

Yes I watched that on Human Planet, I remember they practised this after it rained, it didn't rain very often.

 

[Aquitaine]

Yes I watched that on Human Planet, I remember they practised this after it rained, it didn't rain very often.

True, but such events still took place - and still do. They'd be a lot more common-place if it rained more over there as well. It just goes to show that this sort of stuff doesn't necessarily have to revolve around "white male sexuality", in this case I guess it revolves around "black female sexuality".

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

True, but such events still took place - and still do. They'd be a lot more common-place if it rained more over there as well. It just goes to show that this sort of stuff doesn't necessarily have to revolve around "white male sexuality", in this case I guess it revolves around "black female sexuality".

If rain was common than it would be different, remember it is partly a celebration of the rain and the fact that the rain is rare, and also remember it is for free, so could not be compared to the sex industry.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Not me. I like all kinds of strokes.

You're such a tease.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

You're such a tease.

Hey, I put out - occasionally.

 

[Aquitaine]

If rain was common than it would be different, remember it is partly a celebration of the rain and the fact that the rain is rare, and also remember it is for free, so could not be compared to the sex industry.

Fair enough. It is indeed "for free" so it cannot be compared to the sex industry. However I'm a little confused about your earlier post: are you arguing against the "female power" of mate selection, or are you complaining about the disproportionate ratios of Female and Male sex workers - or both?