psychoslice
Veteran Member
No they should not forgive them until they change their ways, forgiving people like that means nothing to them.
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Should Gays Forgive Abrahamics?
- Thread starter gsa
- Start date
Nope. They should not be forgiven.
They should not be forgiven because I do not buy for a second their alleged good intentions to save people from hell. And I do not buy their alleged good intentions because they seem to focus too much on homosexuality and not on other sins that would have caused stoning as well, and should cause hell as well, for instance divorce, or marrying an unbeliever.
In other words, by singling out with so much energy one of the many possible sins they just show they true colors, which point to simple discrimination that has nothing to do with what God wants or does not want.
Ciao
- viole
leibowde84
Veteran Member
I would say that the reason would be this: they are actively trying to prevent rights from being enjoyed by same-sex couples who do not share their beliefs. Considering religious beliefs when making decisions on purely civil matters is disrespectful to those who don't share those religious views. Legislation should be based on the reality we live in, not on what we may or may not think is God's will.
And of course, I do agree with that. There can be no doubt of the damage done by these allegedly well meaning christian (not capitalized on purpose) fools. Yet, since we now have these rights, as it pertains to SSM, what more is there to want? I don't want churches to be forced to marry me. That would be me forcing my agenda on someone who doesn't share my views. I don't care if they think I am bound for hell. They can collectively KMA if they think that my love for Norma was wrong. So for me, what they think is truly irrelevant. If they do something to again step on my toes, then I would change my views. and btw.....Kiss kiss my love.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
I agree. I would not support anyone (except for Government Employees) to be forced to conduct same-sex marriages or any other marriages for that matter against their will. I don't think that is a real threat, though. But, they have to remember that, if they are legally allowed to express their ridicule of homosexuality, homosexuals should be free to ridicule their beliefs in the same exact way.
Mitch M
Member
We all know that there are Many Studies with many different control groups . All that i am STATING is the FACTS.
LOUISVILLE, Ky. (BP)--A social researcher who has studied sexual behavior for 24 years believes the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) has sound reasons for maintaining its prohibition against gay scoutmasters.
A homosexual cannot automatically be considered a child molester, said Judith Reisman, president of the Institute for Media Education in suburban Louisville, Ky. - But with 17-24 percent of boys being abused by age 18, nearly as many as the 25 percent of girls, there is cause for concern, she said.
Since heterosexuals outnumber the homosexual population about 44 to 1, as a group the incidence of homosexuals molesting children is up to 40 times greater than heterosexuals, she said.
The Facts are the Facts/ My Comments are the STATS and FINDINGS by Real People on the ground, who deal with the Problems every day. NOT some Random writer or two who pretend that the facts do not matter.
All You have is people who claim that the FACTS are Incorrect..
When it comes to AIDS and Pedophilia Studies show that Homosexuals are in the Highest Ratio Per Group. Per Group.
They are the a minority group but they are not NEVER ) - allowed to donate blood or organs. THIS IS THE FACT >
This has nothing to do with Abraham.
pedophiles among persons with a homosexual erotic development is greater than that in persons who develop heterosexually. Per Group Ratio. The Studies agree. Your Opinions are great. And i value them all. But the Facts are the facts.
I will believe the Studies put out by researchers , not re-invention writers who discard the FACTS.
This is not Abraham's Fault. it is the Gays who have brought this upon themselves. They simply have no Scriptures for their Faith.
LOUISVILLE, Ky. (BP)--A social researcher who has studied sexual behavior for 24 years believes the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) has sound reasons for maintaining its prohibition against gay scoutmasters.
A homosexual cannot automatically be considered a child molester, said Judith Reisman, president of the Institute for Media Education in suburban Louisville, Ky. - But with 17-24 percent of boys being abused by age 18, nearly as many as the 25 percent of girls, there is cause for concern, she said.
Since heterosexuals outnumber the homosexual population about 44 to 1, as a group the incidence of homosexuals molesting children is up to 40 times greater than heterosexuals, she said.
The Facts are the Facts/ My Comments are the STATS and FINDINGS by Real People on the ground, who deal with the Problems every day. NOT some Random writer or two who pretend that the facts do not matter.
All You have is people who claim that the FACTS are Incorrect..
When it comes to AIDS and Pedophilia Studies show that Homosexuals are in the Highest Ratio Per Group. Per Group.
They are the a minority group but they are not NEVER ) - allowed to donate blood or organs. THIS IS THE FACT >
This has nothing to do with Abraham.
pedophiles among persons with a homosexual erotic development is greater than that in persons who develop heterosexually. Per Group Ratio. The Studies agree. Your Opinions are great. And i value them all. But the Facts are the facts.
I will believe the Studies put out by researchers , not re-invention writers who discard the FACTS.
This is not Abraham's Fault. it is the Gays who have brought this upon themselves. They simply have no Scriptures for their Faith.
HekaMa'atRa
Member
@SomeRandom already showed you why your "facts" are not facts and are incorrect. No credible sex researchers subscribe to your above comments. And this thread wasn't talking about the biblical figure Abraham. They were referring to the the monotheistic religions to which are based on him.
Mitch M
Member
Opinions of others are good to have. @SomeRandom already knows that the Facts Prove that Men who Molest Boys are Gay.
We don't need a Hippie, Rainbow, Imagination Fantasy tripper writer - to tell us that They are may not be Gay. if they Do not always feel attracted to Older men.
I will always tell the truth. I am sorry of You feel offended about Your Gay subjects who are not allowed to Give Blood or Organs. Not A part of any Abrahamic Faith , Who have No Scriptures to validate their Behavior And Who are Not Completely Trusted with MOST - REAL Parents - Children. I hope to spread the Message that being Gay is not safe. They are the most effected by Disease. I am sad that You continue to deny the Facts.
I love Gay people as much as others. If You are Gay. I have a hug for You.
We don't need a Hippie, Rainbow, Imagination Fantasy tripper writer - to tell us that They are may not be Gay. if they Do not always feel attracted to Older men.
I will always tell the truth. I am sorry of You feel offended about Your Gay subjects who are not allowed to Give Blood or Organs. Not A part of any Abrahamic Faith , Who have No Scriptures to validate their Behavior And Who are Not Completely Trusted with MOST - REAL Parents - Children. I hope to spread the Message that being Gay is not safe. They are the most effected by Disease. I am sad that You continue to deny the Facts.
I love Gay people as much as others. If You are Gay. I have a hug for You.
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Diederick`
Member
Forgiving a religion for what it has gotten people to do is like forgiving the Nazi ideology for the Holocaust. It doesn't make sense. Religion has an inherent capacity to allow people to do hideously anti-humanist things because of its 'absolute truth'-factor and the lack of a reality-check. It's the absolute truth in the world and people believe it based on no evidence at all - if it says jump, they'll jump (or support jumping if they're the squeamish hypocritical kind). Saying that's okay feels like the grossest moral travesty imaginable.
And religions are not exclusively responsible for the damage that is done in their name, just like political ideologies aren't. People use them to rationalize their repulsiveness and motivate others to do the same. It's people who have been driven by others, their own insecurities and using religion, to cause the harm that they have done. And not just to us gays. To practically every kind of human being that was not in the popular majority. People don't just wake up and commit horrors because they dreamt them up, they are very much a product of their surroundings. Upbringing, education, indoctrination, inequality, etcetera; all players in shaping a human being to become what it is and, most importantly, thinks. When their intellectual honesty fails, along with their altruism and the restraints that keep people from hurting others; it's usually been a long journey of bad influences. But I don't think that excuses them.
A dog which aggressively attacks a vulnerable human is put down. The dog was perhaps raised wrong, or hideously abused, or diseased, or whatever. But the result is that the dog wasn't strong enough to be a decent dog and isn't excused, but put down. Humans who have failed to become a decent human being, who have lost their intellectual integrity, altruism and restraints to hurt others; are not excused, but put in therapy, prison, or the chair (depending on the reigning political priorities).
They can only be excused if they show to have become better, that their wrongdoings will not occur again, and have made positive contributions so as to counterbalance their past mistakes. Religions can't do that, because they are not alive. They are not people, or dogs. Religions are just ideas, tools used by people and it is those people who do the actual harm. And though some have come around and may be excused, the majority of those who have transgressed against humanism, never made amends and continue to hurt mankind.
And religions are not exclusively responsible for the damage that is done in their name, just like political ideologies aren't. People use them to rationalize their repulsiveness and motivate others to do the same. It's people who have been driven by others, their own insecurities and using religion, to cause the harm that they have done. And not just to us gays. To practically every kind of human being that was not in the popular majority. People don't just wake up and commit horrors because they dreamt them up, they are very much a product of their surroundings. Upbringing, education, indoctrination, inequality, etcetera; all players in shaping a human being to become what it is and, most importantly, thinks. When their intellectual honesty fails, along with their altruism and the restraints that keep people from hurting others; it's usually been a long journey of bad influences. But I don't think that excuses them.
A dog which aggressively attacks a vulnerable human is put down. The dog was perhaps raised wrong, or hideously abused, or diseased, or whatever. But the result is that the dog wasn't strong enough to be a decent dog and isn't excused, but put down. Humans who have failed to become a decent human being, who have lost their intellectual integrity, altruism and restraints to hurt others; are not excused, but put in therapy, prison, or the chair (depending on the reigning political priorities).
They can only be excused if they show to have become better, that their wrongdoings will not occur again, and have made positive contributions so as to counterbalance their past mistakes. Religions can't do that, because they are not alive. They are not people, or dogs. Religions are just ideas, tools used by people and it is those people who do the actual harm. And though some have come around and may be excused, the majority of those who have transgressed against humanism, never made amends and continue to hurt mankind.
Mitch M
Member
Yes there were Stories or Rumors of Nazis who killed Homosexuals. Also stories of Nazis who were Homosexuals. Blaming a Religious Group for the Harm that Gays have brought upon themselves and others is not being Honest..
CDC recommends sexually active gay, bisexual and other MSM test for:
HIV at least once a year ONCE a YEAR. Thats because MOST Gays go through a continual Never Ending cycle of Sexual Partners. Forever. On and on and on.
They Spread Hepatitis B and C; Chlamydia and gonorrhea of the rectum if you’ve had receptive anal sex, or been a “bottom hole” Just in the past year; Chlamydia and gonorrhea of the penis (urethra) if you have had insertive anal sex or received oral sex in the past year;
In the bible, they did not have medical treatment. Quarantine and keeping gays in enforced isolation for a period of time to limit or prevent the spread of disease or infection or just putting them to death before the disease spreads to unsuspecting unknowing innocent children and other victims and families, to the water supply, the Food and general population This - seemed to the prophets and wise, godly men - the best way. its all about blood crimes. Its the only Choice when there is no Condoms, medical treatment. ECT...
Remember - hating the truth. Does not change the FACTS.
CDC recommends sexually active gay, bisexual and other MSM test for:
HIV at least once a year ONCE a YEAR. Thats because MOST Gays go through a continual Never Ending cycle of Sexual Partners. Forever. On and on and on.
They Spread Hepatitis B and C; Chlamydia and gonorrhea of the rectum if you’ve had receptive anal sex, or been a “bottom hole” Just in the past year; Chlamydia and gonorrhea of the penis (urethra) if you have had insertive anal sex or received oral sex in the past year;
- Gonorrhea of the throat if you’ve performed oral sex (i.e., your mouth on your partner’s penis, vagina, or anus) in the past year;
- And sometimes your healthcare provider may suggest a herpes test.
In the bible, they did not have medical treatment. Quarantine and keeping gays in enforced isolation for a period of time to limit or prevent the spread of disease or infection or just putting them to death before the disease spreads to unsuspecting unknowing innocent children and other victims and families, to the water supply, the Food and general population This - seemed to the prophets and wise, godly men - the best way. its all about blood crimes. Its the only Choice when there is no Condoms, medical treatment. ECT...
Remember - hating the truth. Does not change the FACTS.
- 28% of homosexual men had more than 1000 partners: "Bell and Weinberg reported evidence of widespread sexual compulsion among homosexual men. 83% of the homosexual men surveyed estimated they had had sex with 50 or more partners in their lifetime, 43% estimated they had sex with 500 or more partners; 28% with 1,000 or more partners. Bell and Weinberg p 308." (exodusglobalalliance.org/ishomosexualityhealthyp60.php)
- 79% of homosexual men say over half of sex partners are strangers: "The survey showed 79% of the respondents saying that over half of their sexual partners were strangers. Seventy percent said that over half of their sexual partners were people with whom they had sex only once. Bell and Weinberg pp.308-309." (exodusglobalalliance.org/ishomosexualityhealthyp60.php)
- Modal range for homosexual sex partners 101-500: "In their study of the sexual profiles of 2,583 older homosexuals published in Journal of Sex Research, Paul Van de Ven et al. found that "the modal range for number of sexual partners ever [of homosexuals] was 101–500." In addition, 10.2 percent to 15.7 percent had between 501 and 1000 partners. A further 10.2 percent to 15.7 percent reported having had more than 1000 lifetime sexual partners. Paul Van de Ven et al., "A Comparative Demographic and Sexual Profile of Older Homosexually Active Men," Journal of Sex Research 34 (1997): 354." (exodusglobalalliance.org/ishomosexualityhealthyp60.php)
- 1978 study, 78% of gay men had more than 100 partners, 28% more than 1000: "A far-ranging study of homosexual men published in 1978 revealed that 75 percent of self-identified, white, gay men admitted to having sex with more than 100 different males in their lifetime: 15 percent claimed 100-249 sex partners; 17 percent claimed 250-499; 15 percent claimed 500-999; and 28 percent claimed more than 1,000 lifetime male sex partners. By 1984, after the AIDS epidemic had taken hold, homosexual men were reportedly curtailing promiscuity, but not by much. Instead of more than 6 partners per month in 1982, the average non-monogamous respondent in San Francisco reported having about 4 partners per month in 1984." (catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0075.html)
- There is an extremely low rate of sexual fidelity among homosexual men as compared to married heterosexuals. Among married females 85% reported sexual fidelity. Among married men, 75.5% reported sexual fidelity. Among homosexual males in their current relationship, 4.5% reported sexual fidelity. (Sources:Laumann, The Social Organization of Sexuality, 216; McWhirter and Mattison, The Male Couple: How Relationships Develop (1984): 252-253; Wiederman, "Extramarital Sex," 170.
HekaMa'atRa
Member
Opinions of others are good to have.@SomeRandom already knows that the Facts Prove that Men who Molest Boys are Gay.
And again, no credible sex researcher today would ever identify pedophiles as heterosexual or homosexual because they're not attracted to a sex. They have a mental condition that makes them attracted to a pubescent stage to which they will molest both male and female children - whatever they have easier access to.
You need to understand the difference between research findings and facts. The "facts" you rely on are either severely outdated, heavily biased and written by conservative religious groups, or are completely disregarded by credible, non-biased experts .
The "gays" haven't brought anything upon themselves. The point of this thread is should gay people forgive practitioners of the Abrahamic faiths for basing their treatment of said minority on 2k year old mythologies when the modern world is quickly leaving behind past beliefs.
This Bell and Weinberg study is from 1978, almost 40 years ago. Not much else to say about that as its completely obsolete.
Your posts reek of Poe btw. So hello there, my friend!
But I have some time to kill so I'll respond anyway. I already said previously that your "facts" prove nothing of the sort. The actual authors of the studies you referred to have gone on record explicitly multiple times to explain that people using their studies in the manner you just did are doing nothing but outright lying. (FYI lying is a sin. And bearing false witness is even against the 10 commandments!)
Men who molest boys can be one of three things. An exclusive (called "fixated" or even "true") pedophile. This is a pedophile who literally has no adult sexual orientation. Regardless of their sex and the sex of their victim they can not be called gay straight or even bisexual. Pedophilia is in it's own separate category.
They can be a "regressed" pedophile. This is often a more opportunistic pedophile, with an actual adult sexual orientation. Here's where things get tricky. The sex of their victim is usually incidental. However if they do have "preference" this may not always coincide with their adult sexual orientation. And thus they cannot be accurately labelled either a "homosexual pedophile" or a "heterosexual pedophile" not even a "bisexual pedophile." The two sexual attractions are essentially two entirely different categories, which occasionally has some overlap.
And all your arguably libelous attempts to label gay men as pedophilic is not only sinful, it's against established Science. As @HekaMa'atRa said, (sorry don't know how to tag yet) no respected established sex crimes researcher or sex researcher are saying what you are saying. Most of them weren't even saying that in the 70s, as a matter of fact. Like Mr Groth who did a study in 1978 on pedophiles and strangely enough is often cited by the anti gay crowd incorrectly as supposed "proof" that gay and bi men molest children at a high rate. Which was swiftly and quickly denied by Mr Groth himself, who accused the perpetrator who was spreading this lie around ("Dr" Paul Cameron) of misrepresenting his research, outright fabricating numbers that weren't in his study to begin with and purposely ignoring his actual findings. He also wrote an official complaint calling him a "disgrace to (his) profession.." Ouch.
Mr Groth is another in a long list of credible researchers who have been outright lied about by the so called "Christians" who use Science incorrectly to demonize gay people. Like you're doing right now! What's that Jesus said about checking the log in your own eye first?
So I am very aware of this lying about gay people through "science." It has a long precedence and frankly, it's despicable.
And it doesn't change the fact that the majority of pedophiles are still heterosexual men.
Psychopathology and Personality Traits of Pedophiles: Page 2 of 5 | Psychiatric Times
Oh and the supposed "gay ban" on blood/organ donation is pretty stupid, considering they can test those for practically every disease under the sun BEFORE giving it to people. And that diseases don't give a damn if you're gay straight or prefer purple people from mars, they'll infect you without any discrimination. So by that logic they should just ban everyone from donating.
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Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Good point.
Servant_of_the_One1
Well-Known Member
I dont think Abrahamics need forgiveness from sinners.
HekaMa'atRa
Member
Not even those who cause harm, discrimination, or even death to homosexuals?
They aren't stories or rumors. You know the Nazis were meticulous in their detailed accounts of what they did during WWII (almost to the point of OCD to be honest) right? Anyone with even a passing acquaintance of history can pull up information done by the Nazis themselves detailing the people they sent to their death. Jews, Jehova's Witnesses, Gypsies, the disabled and gay people. And pretty much anyone else Hitler deemed "unsavory." Oh and the so called stories of "Gay Nazis" was kind of discredited by, you know, ACTUAL Historians. Those pesky experts, calling out people on their lies, right?
Oh and that's a bit rich, calling "the gays" not completely honest. You're the one outright lying about scientific research to vilify gay people.
You know there are in fact straight guys who have sex with other guys (for whatever reason, money, blackmail, sexual fantasy etc.) But since sexual activity is not a definitive characteristic of any sexual orientation, it's inaccurate to label all of them gay or bi. That's why there's the MSM term in your little "factoid." So by your own admission, the CDC did not target gay or bisexual men exclusively. They targeted sexually active men who (again, for whatever reason) have had sex with another man. This can include men who are raped by other men or even male prostitutes/porn workers or maybe even junkies who are so desperate for their next fix that they will have sex with the next person who walks past, regardless of their own sexual orientation, just for a bit of money. In other words all you've done is taken a simplified statement done by the CDC, ignored all the potential factors of why this statement was issued in the first place and tried to place all of the blame on gay people. What was that about being honest, again?
Also any Center for disease control will tell pretty much EVERYONE who is sexually active to get regularly tested for every STI. That's called being sexually responsible and not becoming complacent to the point of dying of a preventable disease. They tell this particularly to the youth of today, regardless of their potential sexual proclivities. STI's are a thing among promiscuous people of any and all sexual orientations ya know.
Not a single sexual activity in that statement applies to all gay people and in fact applies to many heterosexual couples. So what the **** is your point? That STIs are transmitted through unprotected sex?
Thank you, captain obvious.
Considering most of those came from Exodus a well known anti gay organisation with an interest and reputation for anti gay bias and often misrepresenting research pertaining to gay people, I'm going to call bull**** on all of those supposed "facts." They aren't any more reputable than a random homeless man yelling at passing cars to get out of his head space.
Oh and the Catholic Education site uses deliberately misleading terminology. So again, not a very credible source.
Lol a study from 1984? That's the best you can do? A random, potentially misrepresented (going by your previous posts) data analysis from 30 years ago? Got anything more relevant as in from this freaking decade, gramps?
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gsa
Well-Known Member
If you are citing Judith Reisman as a source, don't be surprised when no one takes your argument seriously.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
You are in desperate need of a course on statistics. Correlation does not equal causation. Get real.