Should god -any- make sense?

[Emp-Naval]

What I'm asking here is NOT whether the concept of god makes sense or not, but rather should he/she/it?

I did a little search on the internet, and couldn't manage to find a discussion about this -then again I have the atention span of a chair's leg, so 15 minutes later I found myself reading some article about sea slugs...-

Anyway... This is a thought that I had after having a converstation with a theist, who after debleating his resource of apologetic nonsense, popped the never-old excuse "This is god's well, who are we to question it!".
Obviously this ended the discussion, but it made me wonder, why should any god be logical... There isn't anything that prevents him from being a complete lonatic, is there?

So my question is, why should a god abide the laws of logic?

 

[illykitty]

Well even if you do take the model of a god that isn't very much described, like say a panentheistic god, you'll always find yourself with certain questions that might not make sense to you.

Why did it make this universe?
Why is there suffering?
Why is God communicating or not communicating with us?

I'm not going to jump into the "God's will" bandwagon but sometimes there's no answers because we are humans, we don't know everything and we don't know the reasons behind certain things. Doesn't mean though that it isn't logical. It's just our perspective which is so limited.

I mean you say to abide by the laws of logic, but which logic? Human logic? :biglaugh:

 

[Emp-Naval]

Ok, I think a god that demands worshiping should make sense, so he/she/it can be trusted, and for the promises made -whatever might they be- be reliable?

Or maybe not? I mean, from a theistic point of view, what constitutes what is logical and what is not?
Is logic a mere delusion we created according to them?

 

[Emp-Naval]

Well even if you do take the model of a god that isn't very much described, like say a panentheistic god, you'll always find yourself with certain questions that might not make sense to you.

Why did it make this universe?
Why is there suffering?
Why is God communicating or not communicating with us?

I'm not going to jump into the "God's will" bandwagon but sometimes there's no answers because we are humans, we don't know everything and we don't know the reasons behind certain things. Doesn't mean though that it isn't logical. It's just our perspective which is so limited.

I mean you say to abide by the laws of logic, but which logic? Human logic? :biglaugh:

I'm not trying to imply stereoptypes here, but, every single person who tried to persuade me into any kind of religion, tried to explain how his/her religion is the one that makes sense, and tried to attack other's logically, just to fail miserably in explaining certain aspects, and retreat to our "minor understanding" as humans >.>

Sorry but I kinda don't buy this =/

 

[LuisDantas]

So my question is, why should a god abide the laws of logic?

Quite simply, a god that promotes insanity would not be one worth caring about.

If there is a god, humanity's capability for logical thinking (little used as it is) is ultimately his gift, and a precious gift it is.

 

[Tumah]

I believe logic is a part of the creation. That means that logic only came into existence at a certain point. Prior to that point, I don't think anything needs to be logical. After that point though everything should have some sort of logic to it, otherwise what need was there to create it?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

It really depends on how you define god. IMO: a god that is in any way imminent, should have some sort of reason, and should in some way be logical, while a god that is completely transcendent, doesn't really have to follow any logic. Ironically enough, it's the definitions of god that include some immanence that don't normally make any sense, while it's the definitions of god that are wholly transcendent that seem to be the most logical.

 

[Sunstone]

I mean you say to abide by the laws of logic, but which logic? Human logic? :biglaugh:

What do you mean by "human logic"?

 

[Sunstone]

So my question is, why should a god abide the laws of logic?

If by "laws of logic", you mean the "laws of thought", which are foundational to logic, then how could a god NOT abide by them?

Here, for instance, is the generally agreed upon first law of thought, the law of identity: "Every thing is the same with itself and different from another". A is A and not ~A.

If you follow what that really means, how could it be possible, say, for a god to create something that was not what it created? How could it create a turnip that was not the turnip it created? How could it create a sun that was not a sun it created?

You can intellectually masturbate for hours by playing word games with the the Law of Identity, but playing word games with it goes nowhere. In the end, A is A and not ~A.

Logic begins with the Laws of Thought and is derived (deduced) from those laws.

 

[Sunstone]

It really depends on how you define god. IMO: a god that is in any way imminent, should have some sort of reason, and should in some way be logical, while a god that is completely transcendent, doesn't really have to follow any logic.

Fascinating point! I'm inclined at first blush to agree with you, but I want to think more about it. At any rate, it's one of the few original ideas I've seen recently. Good work!

Ironically enough, it's the definitions of god that include some immanence that don't normally make any sense, while it's the definitions of god that are wholly transcendent that seem to be the most logical.

Would you elaborate on that bit, please?

 

[Sunstone]

Quite simply, a god that promotes insanity would not be one worth caring about.

Bacchus is not worth caring about? But I thought he was the only god really worth caring about!

If there is a god, humanity's capability for logical thinking (little used as it is) is ultimately his gift, and a precious gift it is.

The cynic in me says the gods created humanity with just enough capability for logical thinking to be annoyed by illogical thinking while still not able to actually master logical thinking. In other words, they created our limited capacity for it as a means of annoying us.

But then I remember that not all deities are as perverse as Paul's.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Would you elaborate on that bit, please?

Sure. Let me start off by saying that this is just my opinion.

Defintions of god that include some sort of immanence, while they should have some sort of logic, often do not. Think of the Christian god, who is said to be in the world; does this god make sense? Not to me. Even pantheism, an idea of god that is completely immanent, simply doesn't make sense to me. IMO, pantheism is just giving god-language to natural forces, which just seems weird to me.

But think of transcendent concepts of god. Deism, for example. Deism is probably the only definition of god that I could possibly subscribe to. As a wholly transcendent definition of god, it shouldn't have to make sense. However, from my point of view, that's precisely the reason why it does make sense. Most of the debates of whether god exists deals with gods who act in the world, demand worship, have specially chosen people write books of their laws, etc. It's these gods that generally make no sense at all. But debates don't generally center around deistic concepts of god, and IMO, it's because they are the most logical. If all said god did was set in motion the laws of the universe, this doesn't make it much different than Aristotle's prime mover. This god doesn't demand worship, doesn't make itself known, nor does it seem to want to be known. This, to me, seems much more logical when debating the existence of god.

I hope that made sense.

 

[Thief]

What I'm asking here is NOT whether the concept of god makes sense or not, but rather should he/she/it?

I did a little search on the internet, and couldn't manage to find a discussion about this -then again I have the atention span of a chair's leg, so 15 minutes later I found myself reading some article about sea slugs...-

Anyway... This is a thought that I had after having a converstation with a theist, who after debleating his resource of apologetic nonsense, popped the never-old excuse "This is god's well, who are we to question it!".
Obviously this ended the discussion, but it made me wonder, why should any god be logical... There isn't anything that prevents him from being a complete lonatic, is there?

So my question is, why should a god abide the laws of logic?

Rules?.....as in chemistry?......motion?....reality generally speaking?

For the universe to hold as 'firmament'.....the spoken 'Word' must hold 'true'.

 

[Sunstone]

Or maybe not? I mean, from a theistic point of view, what constitutes what is logical and what is not?

Some theists -- almost always theists who have never studied much logic in their time -- claim to follow or hold in esteem things they name, "Christian logic", or "religious logic", or "God's logic", by which they seem to mean they disapprove of science, or evolution, or something else that really annoys them, and which is grounded in real logic.

Some folks are perfectly capable of becoming so confused they will come to call their confusion a "new form of logic".

 

[Shiranui117]

What I'm asking here is NOT whether the concept of god makes sense or not, but rather should he/she/it?

I did a little search on the internet, and couldn't manage to find a discussion about this -then again I have the atention span of a chair's leg, so 15 minutes later I found myself reading some article about sea slugs...-

Anyway... This is a thought that I had after having a converstation with a theist, who after debleating his resource of apologetic nonsense, popped the never-old excuse "This is god's well, who are we to question it!".
Obviously this ended the discussion, but it made me wonder, why should any god be logical... There isn't anything that prevents him from being a complete lonatic, is there?

So my question is, why should a god abide the laws of logic?

It makes sense that an omipotent, omniscient God would not be bound by the laws of physics--as dyanaprajna basically put it, a transcendant God can never be comprehended by the human mind, so any attempts to utilize human logic in order to solidly define God will inevitably fail. How can the God Who created the laws of logic be subject to them? I would say that any god whose being is completely logical and easy to understand is a machination of the human mind. So, the being of God, Who God is, does not necessarily have to make any logical sense--hence, in my view, why the dogmas of the Trinity, Christ being fully God and fully man without mixing or hybridizing the two, God being both fully immanent and transcendant at the same time, are even possibilities to begin with.

 

[LuisDantas]

Bacchus is not worth caring about? But I thought he was the only god really worth caring about!

Maybe I should have used "to worry about" instead of "to care about"?

 

[Iti oj]

Rules?.....as in chemistry?......motion?....reality generally speaking?

For the universe to hold as 'firmament'.....the spoken 'Word' must hold 'true'.

:help:lost in translation.

 

[Thief]

:help:lost in translation.

Logic is an ordered line of thought.
Not always clear to the recipient.

Should God make any sense?.....generally 'speaking'?
Of course He should.

If not, then dealing with a creator force that has no 'logic' might be haphazard.

So .....are we making attempt to be 'sure' about the mind of God?

 

[Tumah]

Logic is an ordered line of thought.
Not always clear to the recipient.

Should God make any sense?.....generally 'speaking'?
Of course He should.

If not, then dealing with a creator force that has no 'logic' might be haphazard.

So .....are we making attempt to be 'sure' about the mind of God?

Using your explanation of logic as an ordered line of thought, any religion that has a god that pre-exists time would not be logical.

 

[Iti oj]

Logic is an ordered line of thought.
Not always clear to the recipient.

Should God make any sense?.....generally 'speaking'?
Of course He should.

If not, then dealing with a creator force that has no 'logic' might be haphazard.

So .....are we making attempt to be 'sure' about the mind of God?

Why should we assume dealing wiht God is not haphazard. Does it have something to do with the spoken word needing to be true?