Should god -any- make sense?

[dawny0826]

Nice enough, but then why do you have faith?
I can't get the hangs of using logic only when it's convenient and then abandon ship into faith once things become problamatic.

The contrary, it's been during the most challenging times in my life that God has remained faithful to me, when I was not faithful to Him.

A faith walk is not an easy walk. It's a walk of exploration and life lessons on a continuum. It's the choice to acknowledge and nurture a connection with God and to acknowledge that life won't always pan out the way we envision. There's no perfection on such a walk.

 

[Emp-Naval]

Not at all! Logic doesn't in and by itself demonstrate the existence of anything in the natural world, so far as I can see. Logic is merely the rules or principles of valid reasoning. It tells you what's valid reasoning and what is invalid reasoning. But it doesn't tell you what exists.

Arrrgh... For the love of pancakes... This is far beyond my daily dosage of reason, if I continue any further I think I'll brick my brain...
JK =p But then, this means there exist some illogical "things" in real life?

 

[Emp-Naval]

The contrary, it's been during the most challenging times in my life that God has remained faithful to me, when I was not faithful to Him.

A faith walk is not an easy walk. It's a walk of exploration and life lessons on a continuum. It's the choice to acknowledge and nurture a connection with God and to acknowledge that life won't always pan out the way we envision. There's no perfection on such a walk.

You totally got me wrong, my bad.
I meant whenever the matters of religion proves to be contradictory and illogical, theists lean towards faith and ditch reasoning...

 

[Sunstone]

But then, this means there exist some illogical "things" in real life?

Not everything that logically would seem to be the case is in fact the case. That's why in science, logic is always checked against empirical evidence. You don't just reason, based on what you know of them, that hydrogen and oxygen will combine to form water -- you test it to make sure your logical reasoning is sound.

It is logical to argue that:

(1) Humanity is divided into producers and moochers.

(2) Without the producers civilization would collapse.

(3) Without the moochers, civilization would still flourish.

Therefore producers are of more value to civilization than moochers.
​

That's all nice and logical, but perhaps only an 14 year old boy fervently consumed with youthful lust for Ayn Rand's seldom-washed knickers could harness enough stupidity to think it's true. Ideologically-oriented people are often prone to thinking something is proved true by logic alone.

 

[Iti oj]

Not everything that logically would seem to be the case is in fact the case. That's why in science, logic is always checked against empirical evidence. You don't just reason, based on what you know of them, that hydrogen and oxygen will combine to form water -- you test it to make sure your logical reasoning is sound.

It is logical to argue that:

(1) Humanity is divided into producers and moochers.

(2) Without the producers civilization would collapse.

(3) Without the moochers, civilization would still flourish.

Therefore producers are of more value to civilization than moochers.
​

That's all nice and logical, but perhaps only an 14 year old boy fervently consumed with youthful lust for Ayn Rand's seldom-washed knickers could harness enough stupidity to think it's true. Ideologically-oriented people are often prone to thinking something is proved true by logic alone.

which is why some sciences are deemed theoretical. Good post and point.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You totally got me wrong, my bad.
I meant whenever the matters of religion proves to be contradictory and illogical, theists lean towards faith and ditch reasoning...

You paint with a broad brush … but we've already established this.

 

[dawny0826]

You totally got me wrong, my bad.
I meant whenever the matters of religion proves to be contradictory and illogical, theists lean towards faith and ditch reasoning...

It's okay. I apologize for misunderstanding on my part. I was attempting to answer your question, but, from another perspective. As I've already explained, in my own faith walk, I'm learning on a continuum. I can't learn without applying logic and reasoning.

Let me try answering your questions again.

Nice enough, but then why do you have faith?

I can't get the hangs of using logic only when it's convenient and then abandon ship into faith once things become problamatic.

Why wouldn't I have faith, when it's a fundamental element of my religion? Much of my religion is to be experienced through life and cannot be "proven" when a non-theist demands proof.

Though, this may not register logically at all times it doesn't mean that there lacks logic to processing and understanding of a faith.

I understand where you're coming from through the example you provided in the OP.

"It's God's will, who are we to question it?"

Such responses can be tiring. But, sometimes, I think this response may most adequately serve as an answer to certain questions posed regarding faith. And yes, this response may also be offered as a generic "lack of response" as well.

Is this not contingent upon the person that you're conversing with and their own perceptions of God? Their intellect and capacity for learning, etc.? Or even, their skill at debate, if they feel they are being backed into a corner?

Perhaps you should have asked for additional detail without assuming that the person was incapable of applying logic and reason to their argument. Did you ask them if they are choosing not to question God or if they feel that they cannot question God?

I for one believe that I can question God and that it's an integral piece to my spiritual development.

But, there are certain things that I do accept to be God's will and don't feel necessary to question.

Regardless, I think the plain here is vast. It's unfair to apply blanket labels, as not all theists view their relationship with God in the same vein or undergo the same learning processes and experiences.

 

[sindex.1983]

OP makes a good point.

But the only way you can come to have a belief in your understanding of the creator is to examine creation for patterns that seem to indicate something about the intentions of the creator; for while the creator is infinite, His intentions were obviously finite, for He made a finite system of limits as boundaries to contain the infinitely-stretching universe.

Our logic itself is proof that God employs logic. Logic is systematic, orderly - it flows like water through all creation, defining set limits, boundaries, of all things. Thus we have, for instance, a species of human beings who all seem to look alike - and yet, they are also undeniably each unique as snowflakes too.

This should in some way indicate to you that the duality of our universe is reflected in us. Since there is a creator, and since there is a logic behind all creation in that it functions within set limits, and since we also possess the faculty of Reason that includes the tool of mental logic, we can easily infer that our creator possesses a form of Transcendent Logic that supersedes our own, yet in turn is reflected in ours too.

Just because I am saying there are limits on everything doesn't eliminate irrationality though. Irrationality - Chaos - also exists, in spite of the Order of God. Everything in existence seems to be a copy of a copy in some way, and yet, each thing also possesses unique traits as well, making it seem distinct and separate from everything else.

This should lead you to discern that God is not the only basic essential ingredient to creation. Whereas God is Order and Supreme Logic, the stuff of creation with which he works is Chaos, which is not of God.

Food for thought, hope you enjoy

 

[Emp-Naval]

It's okay. I apologize for misunderstanding on my part. I was attempting to answer your question, but, from another perspective. As I've already explained, in my own faith walk, I'm learning on a continuum. I can't learn without applying logic and reasoning.

Let me try answering your questions again.



Why wouldn't I have faith, when it's a fundamental element of my religion? Much of my religion is to be experienced through life and cannot be "proven" when a non-theist demands proof.

Though, this may not register logically at all times it doesn't mean that there lacks logic to processing and understanding of a faith.

I understand where you're coming from through the example you provided in the OP.

"It's God's will, who are we to question it?"

Such responses can be tiring. But, sometimes, I think this response may most adequately serve as an answer to certain questions posed regarding faith. And yes, this response may also be offered as a generic "lack of response" as well.

Is this not contingent upon the person that you're conversing with and their own perceptions of God? Their intellect and capacity for learning, etc.? Or even, their skill at debate, if they feel they are being backed into a corner?

Perhaps you should have asked for additional detail without assuming that the person was incapable of applying logic and reason to their argument. Did you ask them if they are choosing not to question God or if they feel that they cannot question God?

I for one believe that I can question God and that it's an integral piece to my spiritual development.

But, there are certain things that I do accept to be God's will and don't feel necessary to question.

Regardless, I think the plain here is vast. It's unfair to apply blanket labels, as not all theists view their relationship with God in the same vein or undergo the same learning processes and experiences.

I like you, don't necessirly agree with you, but like you non the less =]

 

[Quintessence]

I can understand that to a degree, but what you are promoting is simple answers intellectual dishonesty and laziness. Personal i understand my beliefs differ from my practices and my philosophies differ from both of those. So if something works for me I can use it, does not mean i think it its a truth.

I would say that's your perception or interpretation of what I'm "promoting" (not really the word I would use, but sure, we'll run with it).

What I am actually "promoting" is for people to live their lives how they want by the standards they or their people deem worthwhile instead of constantly fussing over whether or not their way of life measures up to someone else's demands. That may or may not entail what you've accused me of "promoting" here.

 

[Willamena]

Arrrgh... For the love of pancakes... This is far beyond my daily dosage of reason, if I continue any further I think I'll brick my brain...
JK =p But then, this means there exist some illogical "things" in real life?

If some things about "God" are illogical, then illogical things exist.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

To a degree, yes. But as I understand, God is likely to have incredible features (earning him the label) that is beyond our understanding, like a fish trying to comprehend the logic of chemical reactions.

And it isn't uncommon when people try to make the laws of physics meet with God, presumably materialists. God extends logic that is not relevant to him, and since his nature is so divine it's not only possible but likely that the logics of our natures will not measure with his.

 

[Emp-Naval]

To a degree, yes. But as I understand, God is likely to have incredible features (earning him the label) that is beyond our understanding, like a fish trying to comprehend the logic of chemical reactions.

And it isn't uncommon when people try to make the laws of physics meet with God, presumably materialists. God extends logic that is not relevant to him, and since his nature is so divine it's not only possible but likely that the logics of our natures will not measure with his.

This puts us in a weird situation... If we can say a god makes no sense in some aspects -at least for us-, then how on earth are we supposed to believe in him, or in any of his prohets, massenges, revelations, you name it...
Are you suggesting that a belief of god should arise as a hypothisis that proves to be handy in some aspects, and just assume it's a solid fact after that?!!!

 

[The Sum of Awe]

This puts us in a weird situation... If we can say a god makes no sense in some aspects -at least for us-, then how on earth are we supposed to believe in him, or in any of his prohets, massenges, revelations, you name it...
Are you suggesting that a belief of god should arise as a hypothisis that proves to be handy in some aspects, and just assume it's a solid fact after that?!!!

I don't think God cares about whether or not we believe in him, in fact it's likely he doesn't hold much value over human life or earth, considering how we are an extremely small part of the universe.

So, God probably doesn't worry if he makes sense to us, it'd be like us worrying if our cells on the body can comprehend us.

 

[Emp-Naval]

I don't think God cares about whether or not we believe in him, in fact it's likely he doesn't hold much value over human life or earth, considering how we are an extremely small part of the universe.

So, God probably doesn't worry if he makes sense to us, it'd be like us worrying if our cells on the body can comprehend us.

This is interesting, I mean I WAS going to post something about this after we are done here...

What if there IS some sort of a god who doesn't give a rat's foot about us?

 

[Me Myself]

Well, if she made sense, she can destroy it, right?

 

[Astravalon]

So my question is, why should a god abide the laws of logic?

The way I see it, if God wants a relationship with us, it will be more
easily accomplished by operating in a way that we can understand, i.e.,
logically. In other words, He will need to either speak in our language, or
teach us to speak in His.




-

 

[Parsimony]

If God can violate logic, then He can make everyone want to worship Him while at the same time being completely justified in doing so.