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Should I Become A Jehovah's Witness?

RedhorseWoman

Active Member
I did enter your link but the page would not open. No matter, the above precis shows me nothing...,... nothing at all. It features claims made by a grown son and allegations of lies to a non-JW...... if you think that this is a reason for the Watchtower to disband or for folks mistrust the JWs then I reckon you're really clutching at straws.

If any spouse was being abused criminally then all they needed to do was to 1. call police. 2. make allegations. 3. make a signed statement. 4. support a police prosecution. 5. attend the court case and give evidence...... and this didn't happen, I'm guessing. Thousands of folks make claims against their partners, lovers, spouses each day, and thousands of friends and relatives who don't know better stick their necks out to find that they are left high and dry legally.


What neglect and what abuse, please?
You witnessed this yourself, so please tell us what you saw........

You are absolutely correct in what you say should be done by the spouse in an abusive relationship. However, JWs are taught that they should seek out the elders FIRST before following any of those steps. Keep in mind that the elders do not have training in dealing with such issues, and they very often advise the abused spouse to be "more submissive" so that THEY don't cause their spouse to mistreat them.

Very few JWs would circumvent the "arrangement put in place by Jehovah" by seeking "worldly" help in such situations.
 

RedhorseWoman

Active Member
Hey @RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha, hope you are well.

Didn’t you tell @Deeje and myself that basically you asked this in prayer to Jehovah? And did you not say that, the next day, even tho living out in the country, you received a visit from two of us?? If that’s not a prayer answered, I don’t know what is!

That is what you stated....that’s accurate, right?

Perhaps we should respond to this as a JW would respond if someone said that they prayed to God for an answer and members of a different religious group showed up at their door the next day, or they ran into some members of a different religious group and got into a lovely Bible discussion while at the market, shall we?

I think you know exactly what you would say, don't you? JWs would immediately proclaim that it wasn't God who answered that prayer, but Satan.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
You are absolutely correct in what you say should be done by the spouse in an abusive relationship. However, JWs are taught that they should seek out the elders FIRST before following any of those steps. Keep in mind that the elders do not have training in dealing with such issues, and they very often advise the abused spouse to be "more submissive" so that THEY don't cause their spouse to mistreat them.

Very few JWs would circumvent the "arrangement put in place by Jehovah" by seeking "worldly" help in such situations.

I think that's ok....... if a person wants to seek help or advise from their religion, congregations, priests, elders, clergy then I would support that. If a religion tries to sort problems in private or discreetly I would support that.

But the bottom line is straightforward........ we are taught about law and police services from infancy, and we all know that we can call the police....... sadly, the police (in the UK) have let down more victims than the JWs but this fact can be overlooked in any stampede to rubbish a particular group.

This morning on BBC News we hear that 'thousands of children in the US' have been abused by religious clergy, which may give the orphanages, care centres, hospitals, schools, sports centres, youth-prisons and more a breather because many of their reputations have been crushed absolutely as well.

Nah....... I won't be influenced by a few claims made about an organisation which numbers about 7-8 million folks.
 

Earthling

David Henson
Baptism in the JW organization used to be solely a dedication to Jehovah and Jesus. Now, however, there is a component where you must agree to what could only be considered to be a contract between you and the JW organization. Would you feel comfortable making that sort of dedication to a religious publishing company?

When I first got online back in the mid 1990's I heard this on the old Watchtower Observer, which is no longer online, but I was told (unconvincingly by those still 'in the truth') that it just wasn't true.
 

Earthling

David Henson
One thing you will discover about JWs is that those who are rich and/or famous can pretty much do as they wish without repercussions. Prince did many things that would have gotten a regular JW disfellowshipped in a heartbeat. For instance, his association with his back-up band 3rdeyeGirl and his wearing of the sunglasses with the third eye--an occult symbol.



Then, of course, we have Serena Williams who has done so many things that a regular JW would never be allowed to do that it boggles the mind. JWs will swear up and down that she is not baptized, but she has claimed that she goes out in field service whenever she can, and that is allowed (presumably) only for those who are following the rules as either an unbaptized publisher or a baptized JW.

Money talks in the JW organization, and it talks rather loudly.

Yeah, I pretty much got that early on in my observations of the JW's. Not with all of them, but with the ones that are with the in crowd. The wives of Elders especially.
 

Earthling

David Henson
Hey @RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha, hope you are well.

Didn’t you tell @Deeje and myself that basically you asked this in prayer to Jehovah? And did you not say that, the next day, even tho living out in the country, you received a visit from two of us?? If that’s not a prayer answered, I don’t know what is!

That is what you stated....that’s accurate, right?

Yes, it is correct. Absolutely. The way I phrased the question in prayer was, "If they have the truth, please send them to me." I do believe, that, for the most part they have the truth in their literature. I don't think you can find it to such an extent anywhere else. But I also think they have major problems. The two for me are, false prophecy and their handling of child molestation. Scripturally how do you tell a false prophet? Those that speak on behalf of Jehovah regarding a matter that doesn't come true. What are you to do then? Stay away from them.

Scripturally do you follow the laws of the country you live in? Yes, as long as they don't interfere with Jehovah's will and laws. Should you report child molestation or cover it up? Report it. No exceptions. No excuses.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Yes, it is correct. Absolutely. The way I phrased the question in prayer was, "If they have the truth, please send them to me." I do believe, that, for the most part they have the truth in their literature. I don't think you can find it to such an extent anywhere else. But I also think they have major problems. The two for me are, false prophecy and their handling of child molestation. Scripturally how do you tell a false prophet? Those that speak on behalf of Jehovah regarding a matter that doesn't come true. What are you to do then? Stay away from them.

Scripturally do you follow the laws of the country you live in? Yes, as long as they don't interfere with Jehovah's will and laws. Should you report child molestation or cover it up? Report it. No exceptions. No excuses.
Then what about what Nathan said to David? He told David a lie!

More later. Gotta go!
 

RedhorseWoman

Active Member
When I first got online back in the mid 1990's I heard this on the old Watchtower Observer, which is no longer online, but I was told (unconvincingly by those still 'in the truth') that it just wasn't true.

From what I understand, the change was made to help the WTS avoid legal problems. They have made the baptism dedication questions into somewhat of a legal contract so that if any issues came up later in the form of a lawsuit, they could then declare that the person agreed to be part of the organization and follow its directives. Previously, all a baptismal candidate had to agree to was to dedicate their lives to serving God.

Thankfully, I was baptized under the "old rules."
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
you never seem to be able to explain why the "Christians" in Christendom are not going out to "search" for those who are lost? (Matthew 10:11-15) The all important preaching of the Kingdom was to continue right up until the end....so where are they?

How do you think Christianity grew to over 1 billion people? Did they just stumble into a church one day?

Not everyone is called by the Spirit to preach:

11 It was he who “gave gifts to people”; he appointed some to be apostles, others to be prophets, others to be evangelists, others to be pastors and teachers. 12 He did this to prepare all God's people for the work of Christian service, in order to build up the body of Christ. (Ephesians 4)​

There are millions of Christians actively “searching” and preaching in the world today.

You wanted to know where they were. Here are just a few:

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TEAM | A Global Missions Agency

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Vision – International Ministries

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https://www.namb.net/go/




 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
But I also think they have major problems. The two for me are, false prophecy and their handling of child molestation.
I don't think that you know much if anything about JW handling of child molestation.......... I just want to know of any organisations, companies, government depts, religious bodies, charities, education depts, prisons etc that have IMMEDIATELY reported any cases to the press, published and broadcast each claim..... every time, and exposed themselves to any and every critic who fancies a bit of self righteous judgement.

This very morning on BBC News and Teletext News we find that Police Forces across the UK are now having to face the fact that they have turned a blind eye to massive sexual harrassment of their civilian staff. Massive!
Question: Would you now advise young Brits NOT to join the Police Service as a career? :shrug:

Your Thread Title is all about 'should you become a JW.
Well....... do you want to, or not?
But surely it's time that you wised up to the fact that the JWs, when compared to many other kinds of institution, aren't doing so badly for honesty.
Me? I can't be a JW..... I don't know of any Deists who can, but I know honesty and integrity when I come near to it.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
How do you think Christianity grew to over 1 billion people? Did they just stumble into a church one day?

Not everyone is called by the Spirit to preach:

11 It was he who “gave gifts to people”; he appointed some to be apostles, others to be prophets, others to be evangelists, others to be pastors and teachers. 12 He did this to prepare all God's people for the work of Christian service, in order to build up the body of Christ. (Ephesians 4)​

There are millions of Christians actively “searching” and preaching in the world today.

There are millions of Jehovah's Witnesses preaching in the world too Oeste.....and we are small in numbers compared to Christendom's churches, yet we all preach. We see it as a command from Jesus...it isn't optional. Its a serious responsibility because lives are at stake.

The prophet Ezekiel was told....
"Son of man, I have appointed you as a watchman to the house of Israel; and when you hear a word from my mouth, you must warn them from me. 18 When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ but you do not warn him, and you fail to speak in order to warn the wicked one to turn from his wicked course so that he may stay alive, he will die for his error because he is wicked, but I will ask his blood back from you. 19 But if you warn someone wicked and he does not turn back from his wickedness and from his wicked course, he will die for his error, but you will certainly save your own life." (Ezekiel 3:17-19)

All I see are excuses for why the majority of those who identify as Christians today do not preach as Jesus commanded .(Matthew 24:14)

I just Googled "The Great Commission...who is preaching?" with interesting results. Try it.

You wanted to know where they were. Here are just a few:

You already know that I do not consider any of Christendom's churches to be teaching genuine "Christianity" for so many reasons I could fill pages. Having grown up in that poor excuse for Christ's church, I see nothing very "Christian" about its teachings, its conduct or its excuses. I actually see Christendom as the most reprehensible part of Babylon the Great....claiming to represent Christ on earth but not really obeying him in any of the important areas.
Our instruction is to "Get out of her" if we do not want to share in her punishments and sins. (Revelation 18:4)
I believe that we have obeyed that directive.

Their reluctance to preach the Kingdom message and offering excuses for why they don't obey Jesus' command, is only one aspect of their failure IMO. Adopting and celebrating pagan festivals under a thin disguise of "Christian" respectability, when we were warned not to do that. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)....teaching that Jesus shares equal godship with his Father, when Exodus 20:3 tells us we can have no God but Jehovah......Sharing in responsibility for the world's wars where they failed to tell their charges that God does not approve of politically based bloodshed or the indiscriminate use of heinous weapons....conveniently forgetting that we are supposed to 'love our enemies' and pray for them....That is not OK with me.

Teaching people that humans have an immortal soul that will either go to heaven if they have been good, but suffer the flames of hell for all eternity if they are wicked, was never a message preached by Jesus. Nor did he teach that all Christians are going to heaven. What do people expect to do there?

Christendom's friendship with the world is obvious. (James 4:4) Whenever there is a war to be commemorated and the war dead to be honored, despite the fact that these ones may well have killed innocent women and children in that war...where are the clergy? Right there praising them.

images
images


Is God praising them? Are nationalism and patriotism compatible with Christianity....or are they in competition? Why are there chaplains in the military? Is it to tell those soldiers to put down their weapons like Jesus told Peter to do? Or is it to salve the troubled consciences of those who somehow know in their hearts that God doesn't sanction the killing of our fellow humans purely for politically selfish reasons? (Isaiah 1:15)

I see nothing to recommend in Christendom's teachings at all. But we will all see soon enough how Jesus sees "Christianity" when he comes to judge this world.....(Matthew 7:21-23)

What does Christianity look like Oeste?

This?
images
or this...
images


What about this...?
images
or this...
images


What does Christ think that it should look like?

Is this it?
images
or perhaps this?
images


How many ways can humans carve up the Master's church...and still have him recognize them as his own?
 
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RedhorseWoman

Active Member
I don't think that you know much if anything about JW handling of child molestation.......... I just want to know of any organisations, companies, government depts, religious bodies, charities, education depts, prisons etc that have IMMEDIATELY reported any cases to the press, published and broadcast each claim..... every time, and exposed themselves to any and every critic who fancies a bit of self righteous judgement.

This very morning on BBC News and Teletext News we find that Police Forces across the UK are now having to face the fact that they have turned a blind eye to massive sexual harrassment of their civilian staff. Massive!
Question: Would you now advise young Brits NOT to join the Police Service as a career? :shrug:

Your Thread Title is all about 'should you become a JW.
Well....... do you want to, or not?
But surely it's time that you wised up to the fact that the JWs, when compared to many other kinds of institution, aren't doing so badly for honesty.
Me? I can't be a JW..... I don't know of any Deists who can, but I know honesty and integrity when I come near to it.

While child molestation does occur pretty much everywhere, I don't think I've ever seen any other organization where virtually 100% of the membership will

(1) deny that there is any problem whatsoever
(2) when shown testimonies from hundreds, if not thousands, of victims, will automatically say that the majority, if not all of the victims are liars
(3) require rank and file members to go first to the church elders, who, in turn, are instructed to call the Watchtower legal department in order to determine if they have to, by law, report the allegation...and, if the law does not require mandatory reporting in that state, they will simply not report it
(4) require two witnesses to the crime, and, if two witnesses are not available, tell the victim to "leave it in Jehovah's hands" unless the accused confesses (which is not very likely) and, even if there is a confession, if the accused expresses repentance, then nothing further is done
(5) in the past, victims have testified that they were threatened with disfellowshipping from the congregation if they went to the authorities because they would be "slandering" a brother. This has changed to a certain extent. Victims are no longer threatened with disfellowshipping, but neither are they urged to report the crime to the proper authorities, and, as pointed out, if not required by law, the elders won't report it either.

Whenever I've read about child molestation coming to light in an organization after years of cover-ups (the most recent in Pennsylvania with the Catholic Church) the members of that religious organization are incensed that such things have gone on, and they want changes to be made and restitution given to the victims. JWs, on the other hand, vilify the victims and, many times if victims have gone to the authorities to report the crime and it goes to trial, the JWs will show up in great numbers to support the pedophile.

I don't know where you get your information (from JWs, perhaps?) but the JW organization is definitely not that honest. They will lie and try to hide anything that they feel might make them look bad.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
While child molestation does occur pretty much everywhere, I don't think I've ever seen any other organization where virtually 100% of the membership will
Stop there! You have seen? You personally are a witness to what you are about to claim?
Could you expand upon your own personal evidence about what you're about to claim?

(1) deny that there is any problem whatsoever
Please name any 5 organisations of any kind that have rushed to the press on every (any) occasions that claims have been made.

(2) when shown testimonies from hundreds, if not thousands, of victims, will automatically say that the majority, if not all of the victims are liars
Please state any five cases where this has occurred. You've got thousands of cases to trawl from so 5 cases in detail should be easy. Then we can scrutinise those in detail.
.
(3) require rank and file members to go first to the church elders, who, in turn, are instructed to call the Watchtower legal department in order to determine if they have to, by law, report the allegation...and, if the law does not require mandatory reporting in that state, they will simply not report it
Please name any five organisations which have a written rule/law that every single abuse claim must be reported directly to the police by any employee or member who hears of these.

(4) require two witnesses to the crime, and, if two witnesses are not available, tell the victim to "leave it in Jehovah's hands" unless the accused confesses (which is not very likely) and, even if there is a confession, if the accused expresses repentance, then nothing further is done
Scotland! Single witness evidence without secondary corroboration is not acceptable in Scotland! That's just off the top of my head....... that one.
Single witness evidence to convict a person and destroy their lives is very dodgy.

(5) in the past, victims have testified that they were threatened with disfellowshipping from the congregation if they went to the authorities because they would be "slandering" a brother. This has changed to a certain extent. Victims are no longer threatened with disfellowshipping, but neither are they urged to report the crime to the proper authorities, and, as pointed out, if not required by law, the elders won't report it either.
The UK government has just decided not to arrest teachers who decide not to report claims of child abuse.
And yes....... to make allegations about a crime which is later discovered to be fictitious can be a civil matter of slander, defamation and worse.

Whenever I've read about child molestation coming to light in an organization after years of cover-ups (the most recent in Pennsylvania with the Catholic Church) the members of that religious organization are incensed that such things have gone on, and they want changes to be made and restitution given to the victims.
What....... changes likle the JWs have made? You've already shown that the JWs have made changes in this post!

JWs, on the other hand, vilify the victims and, many times if victims have gone to the authorities to report the crime and it goes to trial, the JWs will show up in great numbers to support the pedophile.
Could we have five examples of vilification? You've already written about thousands of cases.....?

Dreadful paragraph..... above. Dreadful! The pedophile? During the trial the defendant has become a Pedophile? So long as you never become involved with the investigation of such claims, then defendants will have fair trials.
Do you know how many sexual assault and rape cases have collapsed in one year in one of the biggest cities in the World? HUNDREDS! (London)
If my friend was arrested, indicted, charge with a serious criminal offence, then if it would help her/him I would most definitely attend the trial!

I don't know where you get your information (from JWs, perhaps?) but the JW organization is definitely not that honest. They will lie and try to hide anything that they feel might make them look bad.
I don't know where you get your info from but I wouldn't trust much of it, because you've already shown a bias and an agenda which should automatically get you removed from any trial jury anywhere in the World.

I never got a single line of info from the JWs...... didn't need to......... it was easy to focus more closely on claims such as yours to discover that a high % of such are agenda driven.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
While child molestation does occur pretty much everywhere, I don't think I've ever seen any other organization where virtually 100% of the membership will........
Wow....... I missed a point......
You are a Christian. Could we know more about your Church, Denomination or Creed identity, please?
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
There are millions of Jehovah's Witnesses preaching in the world too Oeste.....and we are small in numbers compared to Christendom's churches, yet we all preach.

You publish. I wouldn’t call it preaching. Preaching is a fruit or gift of the Holy Spirit, and your rank and file are denied this by your Governing Board.

We see it as a command from Jesus...it isn't optional. Its a serious responsibility because lives are at stake.

Well if Jesus commanded "door to door" there are countries like Syria still waiting.

The prophet Ezekiel was told....

"Son of man, I have appointed you as a watchman to the house of Israel;

C’mon Deeje! You’re not seriously comparing the Governing Board to Ezekiel are you?

…and when you hear a word from my mouth, you must warn them from me.

1914, 1925, 1940, and 1975 were NOT words from the mouth of Jehovah Deeje, but they sure were the words from the mouth of your Governing Board.

They spoke something Jehovah did not command them to speak. They raced ahead of the chariot. They were unfaithful and indiscreet. They became slaves to their own self-professed magnanimousness.



18 When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ but you do not warn him, and you fail to speak in order to warn the wicked one to turn from his wicked course so that he may stay alive, he will die for his error because he is wicked, but I will ask his blood back from you. 19 But if you warn someone wicked and he does not turn back from his wickedness and from his wicked course, he will die for his error, but you will certainly save your own life." (Ezekiel 3:17-19)

You guys have been preaching Christianity will die for a while now, haven’t you? Did it ever occur to you that this is something Yahweh never spoke? Shouldn’t the false dates be clues?

All I see are excuses for why the majority of those who identify as Christians today do not preach as Jesus commanded .(Matthew 24:14)

I asked why JW’s don’t go door to door in Syria “as Jesus commanded”. The only excuse I got was that it wasn’t safe for them to do so.

Had the early Christians waited for safety to preach, it would have died by the 2nd century!

Yet we have over 1 billion Christians in the world Deeje.

I just Googled "The Great Commission...who is preaching?" with interesting results. Try it.

I did, and I can’t seem to find a single country on the globe where Christianity hasn’t reached.

You already know that I do not consider any of Christendom's churches to be teaching genuine "Christianity" for so many reasons I could fill pages. Having grown up in that poor excuse for Christ's church, I see nothing very "Christian" about its teachings, its conduct or its excuses. I actually see Christendom as the most reprehensible part of Babylon the Great....claiming to represent Christ on earth but not really obeying him in any of the important areas.

Despising other religions is very popular nowadays.

Our instruction is to "Get out of her" if we do not want to share in her punishments and sins. (Revelation 18:4)

I believe that we have obeyed that directive.

I believe the same people that identified 1975 are the same people that identified “Babylon the Great” for you.

Their reluctance to preach the Kingdom message and offering excuses for why they don't obey Jesus' command, is only one aspect of their failure IMO.

Reluctance? 1 billion people…that’s one billion with a “b”. For a religion “reluctant to preach the Kingdom message” word sure gets around.

Adopting and celebrating pagan festivals under a thin disguise of "Christian" respectability, when we were warned not to do that. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18).

That says nothing about holidays Deeje. Here’s one that does:

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. Col 2:16​

....teaching that Jesus shares equal godship with his Father, when Exodus 20:3 tells us we can have no God but Jehovah......

Jesus is Jehovah. As for verses…I can fill this page. As for your teaching that Jesus is another God, that is simply polytheism.

Sharing in responsibility for the world's wars where they failed to tell their charges that God does not approve of politically based bloodshed or the indiscriminate use of heinous weapons

Perhaps you can tell us of any major Christian church that approves “…the indiscriminate use of heinous weapons”. i would love to see their web site.

....conveniently forgetting that we are supposed to 'love our enemies' and pray for them....That is not OK with me.

I’m not aware of any Christian that doesn’t love and pray for others, but I got to hand it to the WT…they love to condemn and see everyone as "the enemy".

....

Teaching people that humans have an immortal soul that will either go to heaven if they have been good, but suffer the flames of hell for all eternity if they are wicked, was never a message preached by Jesus.

Sure, and Paul was torn between continuing his labors here on earth and “ceasing to exist”???

Read Phillipians 1:21-24, then read Luke 16:19-31.

Then tell us how the dead who “cease to exist” became “unconscious” at the same time. Don’t you have to exist in order to be “unconscious”???

After that read Ecclesiastes 9:5 and tell us why you believe the “dead have no reward” or whether JW’s pick and choose the section of the verse they are to believe.

Nor did he teach that all Christians are going to heaven. What do people expect to do there?

Those living in heaven are regenerated, so they’ll do whatever they have a mind to do or whatever God commands, just as those living on earth will do. What do you think those living in heaven do now? Sit on clouds??

Christendom's friendship with the world is obvious. (James 4:4)

Is that why the Watchtower became an NGO?

Whenever there is a war to be commemorated and the war dead to be honored, despite the fact that these ones may well have killed innocent women and children in that war...where are the clergy? Right there praising them.

I’m sure “Christendom” was behind the attack on Pearl Harbor. Perhaps the Catholic and/or Protestant clergy were secretly working with Japan behind the scenes? :rolleyes:

Your argument is not with “Christendom” Deeje, it’s with God. I think the WT has been angry with Him ever since they learned He gave the nations the sword and declared them His agents (Eccl 3:8; Rom 13:4).

Is God praising them? Are nationalism and patriotism compatible with Christianity....or are they in competition?

What on earth are you talking about? I don’t conflate nationalists with Christians. Nationalists put country above God, a patriot serves his country, whilst a Christian serves Christ. Nationalism is incompatible with Christianity, whereas patriotism is not. There is nothing in the bible suggesting Jews serving in the military were opposed to God.

I suggest you put down your Watchtower publications, pick up a bible, and read the book of Esther. Here the Jews went to war, defended themselves (killing thousands in the process), and celebrated their victory with a (gasp!) secular (double gasp!!) holiday, all without a “command” (triple gasp!!!) from God.

Why are there chaplains in the military?

Have you ever bothered to ask a chaplain in the military, or have you been fed so much spite that you are simply unable to ask?

Perhaps you have precedent. Did the Levites snub their nose at Jews in the military? Or has your WT built a doctrine based on an idealistic view of a “better earth” leaving the rest of us to deal with reality?

Is it to tell those soldiers to put down their weapons like Jesus told Peter to do?

Why would anyone need a weapon with Jesus around? Once he was about to leave he told them to go buy one. (Luke 22:16)

Or is it to salve the troubled consciences of those who somehow know in their hearts that God doesn't sanction the killing of our fellow humans purely for politically selfish reasons? (Isaiah 1:15)

Lol, when my church forms a military branch and tells us to march “for politically selfish reasons” I’ll let you know.

God tells us there is a time for everything under the sun Deeje, including a time to kill. No Christian would ever engage in such an activity lightly, and I see it only justified as a last resort, when no other option is available, to protect ourselves or others


How many ways can humans carve up the Master's church...and still have him recognize them as his own?

My goodness…there are all kinds of ways humans can carve things up like the WT has done for you here. Let’s take a look at some of those pictures you showed us earlier:
images
images


I recall another religion telling me wars were not the fault of “Christendom” but Europeans. They used the same rationale the Watchtower uses here, blaming the world’s problems on "white devils" or the Euro-influenced rather than Christendom.

Of course, they always claim there are a "few" that aren't so bad. This helps elevate themselves while appearing reasonable and humble to the ears of receptive listeners.

IMO, the WT has taken the worse from the hate mongers and made it appealing (to some) by subbing out "Blacks", "Jews", "Whites", "Immigrants", and "Gays" with "Christendom". It's an ancient "spiritual food" that's served under a guise of flavors, but it all originates from the same table. (1 Cor 10:21).[/QUOTE]
 

RedhorseWoman

Active Member
Stop there! You have seen? You personally are a witness to what you are about to claim?
Could you expand upon your own personal evidence about what you're about to claim?

I have seen how things were handled (actually, not handled) in my own congregation and others. A pedophile who molested his own children, stepchild and step-nephew and who was reported to the elders multiple times, but nothing was ever done. The congregation knew nothing about what had been going on, apparently for years.

I have also seen numerous posts on a number of forums where, almost to a man, JWs have not only denied that there is any problem with child molestation in the JW organization, but have also repeatedly and vehemently stated that the vast majority of the victims are liars.


Please name any 5 organisations of any kind that have rushed to the press on every (any) occasions that claims have been made.

Irrelevant. We're talking about an organization that claims to be God's organization and claims to be so much more honest and aboveboard than any "worldly" organization or religion.


Please state any five cases where this has occurred. You've got thousands of cases to trawl from so 5 cases in detail should be easy. Then we can scrutinise those in detail.

I would suggest that you go to SilentLambs.com where hundreds of victims of JW pedophiles have posted their testimonies.
.

Please name any five organisations which have a written rule/law that every single abuse claim must be reported directly to the police by any employee or member who hears of these.

Again, irrelevant. We're talking about an organization that claims that it is better than any "worldly" organizations--cleaner, more law abiding...just absolutely without fault.


Scotland! Single witness evidence without secondary corroboration is not acceptable in Scotland! That's just off the top of my head....... that one.
Single witness evidence to convict a person and destroy their lives is very dodgy.

Oh, my, so a child is molested and because there were not two witnesses to the actual act, they are summarily dismissed? Doesn't sound so wonderful to me.

And, remember, we aren't talking about criminal action here...we are talking about in-house congregational action. Nobody's life would be destroyed if a victim doesn't have anyone else who saw what happened. In fact, if elders didn't just ignore things when there was just one incident brought to their attention, it's possible that they could prevent additional incidents from occurring--such as what happened in my home congregation. One witness--multiple times--no action.


The UK government has just decided not to arrest teachers who decide not to report claims of child abuse.
And yes....... to make allegations about a crime which is later discovered to be fictitious can be a civil matter of slander, defamation and worse.

So, you're saying that the victims and/or their parents should NOT report these allegations to the authorities so that they could be investigated properly? You're saying that untrained, uneducated elders should decide whether or not the accused is innocent and warn the victim to keep quiet or they will be punished? Very odd.


What....... changes likle the JWs have made? You've already shown that the JWs have made changes in this post!

JWs do not speak out for change. That was my point. When evidence came out about the cover-ups in the Catholic Church, every Catholic with whom I discussed this was outraged and wanted to see justice for the victims. Every JW that I've discussed this with, on the other hand, felt that victims were the criminals and that their organization was just perfect and didn't need to change a thing.


Could we have five examples of vilification? You've already written about thousands of cases.....?

Again...check out SilentLambs and check other forums like Topix where this subject has been discussed and where you can read how JWs react to this issue.

Dreadful paragraph..... above. Dreadful! The pedophile? During the trial the defendant has become a Pedophile? So long as you never become involved with the investigation of such claims, then defendants will have fair trials.
Do you know how many sexual assault and rape cases have collapsed in one year in one of the biggest cities in the World? HUNDREDS! (London)
If my friend was arrested, indicted, charge with a serious criminal offence, then if it would help her/him I would most definitely attend the trial!

Okay...alleged pedophile. Generally, a JW alleged pedophile doesn't get to court until there have been multiple victims, and many times, the victims had been silenced and didn't come forward until the statute of limitations had expired, so the court case was civil in nature.

If your friend had been accused of molesting a number of different children over a period of years, would you still be inclined to be there to yell epithets at the victims while supporting your friend?


I don't know where you get your info from but I wouldn't trust much of it, because you've already shown a bias and an agenda which should automatically get you removed from any trial jury anywhere in the World.

I never got a single line of info from the JWs...... didn't need to......... it was easy to focus more closely on claims such as yours to discover that a high % of such are agenda driven.

This is interesting. You supposedly are not a JW, never have been a JW, and have not gotten any info from JWs, but you dismiss what I say even though I was a JW for 30 years, know several of the victims as well as several of the perpetrators, and have discussed this matter with JWs a number of times.

I'm sorry that you consider first-hand knowledge to be "bias" and an "agenda."
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
I was a JW for 30 years. I am now not a member of any denomination...the JWs pretty much ruined that for me.

Spiritual, like physical abuse takes time to heal. Give yourself time. Jesus will not come looking to see if you belong to a denomination, he'll come looking to see if you belong to him.
 

RedhorseWoman

Active Member
Spiritual, like physical abuse takes time to heal. Give yourself time. Jesus will not come looking to see if you belong to a denomination, he'll come looking to see if you belong to him.

Thank you, Oeste. I no longer feel the need to belong to a religion. I feel that spirituality and a relationship with God does not require organized religion to be valid.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The IBSA, WTBS, and GB have never claimed infallibility. Though we are all anxious to see people get relief from this corrupt system, and for Jehovah’s rule through Jesus to bring the Kingdom benefits. That being said, let’s consider these dates you’ve posted:

Was 1914 a turning point for mankind? Maybe the end didn’t come as expected, but the Last Days — of foretold times of trouble — did begin. Here’s a post written by a Mark Hunter, who really explains the evidence quite well:


**The New York World of August 30, 1914, explains: “The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the ‘International Bible Students’ [as Jehovah’s Witnesses were then known] . . . have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914.”–The World, a New York newspaper, August 30, 1914.

As it turned out, these things were only a “beginning of pangs of distress.”

“For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. (Mat 24:7)

Yes, their expectations were wrong. They expected that year to be the end, but came to believe that that year was only the beginning of what the Bible calls the “end of this system of things” or the “last days.”

More passages painting a picture of these Last Days, and the invisible Heaveny events leading to them

:"And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him...On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.” (Revelation 12: 7-12)

“When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say: “Come!” Another came out, a fiery-colored horse, and it was granted to the one seated on it to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another, and he was given a great sword.” (Revelation 6:3, 4)


Due to their zeal, Christians have at times had wrong expectations.

Examples:
Shortly before Jesus died, his disciples “were imagining that the kingdom of God was going to display itself instantly.” Then, after his resurrection they asked whether the Kingdom would be set up right away. Also, about ten years before Peter wrote his second letter, some were “excited” by “a verbal message” or “a letter,” reputedly from the apostle Paul or his companions, “to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.” (Luke 19:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:2; Acts 1:6)
They were a bit early.

Anyway, How do secular authorities or historians view 1914?


Ever since 1914, everybody conscious of trends in the world has been deeply troubled by what has seemed like a fated and predetermined march toward ever greater disaster. Many serious people have come to feel that nothing can be done to avert the plunge towards ruin.”—Bertrand Russell, The New York Times Magazine, September 27, 1953.


The London Evening Star commented that the conflict “tore the whole world’s political setup apart. Nothing could ever be the same again. If we all get the nuclear madness out of our systems and the human race survives, some historian in the next century may well conclude that the day the world went mad was August 4, 1914.”–London Evening Star, quoted in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, August 5, 1960, and The Seattle Times, August 4, 1960, p. 5.


“Half a century has gone by, yet the mark that the tragedy of the Great War left on the body and soul of the nations has not faded . . . The physical and moral magnitude of this ordeal was such that nothing left was the same as before. Society in its entirety: systems of government, national borders, laws, armed forces, interstate relations, but also ideologies, family life, fortunes, positions, personal relations—everything was changed from top to bottom. . . . Humanity finally lost its balance, never to recover it to this day.” (General Charles de Gaulle, Le Monde, Nov. 12, 1968, p. 9)


“Everyone agrees in recognizing that in the whole history of mankind, few dates have had the importance of August 2, 1914.” (Maurice Genevoix, Promise of Greatness)


“Those who lived through the war could never rid themselves of the belief that one world had ended and another begun in August 1914.” (The Generation of 1914, Robert Wohl, Professor of History)


The whole world really blew up about World War I and we still don’t know why. Before then, men thought that utopia was in sight. There was peace and prosperity. Then everything blew up. We’ve been in a state of suspended animation ever since . . . More people have been killed in this century than in all of history.” (Dr. Walker Percy, American Medical News, November 21, 1977)


“Everything would get better and better. This was the world I was born in. . . . Suddenly, unexpectedly, one morning in 1914 the whole thing came to an end.” (British statesman Harold Macmillan, The New York Times, November 23, 1980)


“The last completely ‘normal’ year in history was 1913, the year before World War I began.” (Times-Herald, Washington, D.C., March 13, 1949)


In 1914 the world lost a coherence which it has not managed to recapture since. . . . This has been a time of extraordinary disorder and violence, both across national frontiers and within them.” (The Economist)


“The Great War of 1914-18 lies like a band of scorched earth dividing that time from ours. In wiping out so many lives which would have been operative on the years that followed, in destroying beliefs, changing ideas, and leaving incurable wounds of disillusion, it created a physical as well as psychological gulf between two epochs.” (Foreword to The Proud Tower, by Barbara W. Tuchman)


“Neither the old nor the young had any suspicion that what they were witnessing, during that incomparable season of 1914, was, in fact, the end of an era.” (Before the Lamps Went Out, by Geoffrey Marcus)


“[There was] little or no evidence of a steady rise or a ‘snowballing’ of conflicts and tensions leading directly to the outbreak of war.” On the contrary, “by late 1913 and early 1914 . . . relations among the major powers appeared to be more settled than they had been for many years.” (International Crisis, by Eugenia Nomikos and Robert C. North, 1976)**

Excerpt from Reply To: 1914 – what happened? – Heaven Net

What was said?


What was said?


Please show me where the Organization stated that 1975 was going to definitely be the end? You won’t find it....because nothing definite was ever written! Only that it was the end of 6,000 years of human existence, and it could be the end.

Did not Jesus say to “keep on the watch”? To “stay alert”? That’s just what we try to do.....the sin is to not stay awake, fall asleep.


As stated at Armageddon – When? :
“Remember that we don't sin by watching, hoping, and anticipating. Rather, we sin when we stop doing that. For Jesus said (as recorded at Luke 12:37):
'Blest are those slaves that are watching
When their master arrives!
For I tell you this as the truth:
He will then put on his apron
And make them recline at his table;
Then, he will come there and serve them!”
 
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