Should I Become A Jehovah's Witness?

[Oeste]

So, was Nathan (in King David’s day), Jehovah God’s prophet?

Yet the account @ 2 Samuel 7:1-3 informs us that Nathan told David something wrong, even saying that God was backing him.

But David said @ 1 Chronicles 28:3 that that was not the case!

Did Nathan utter a falsehood? Yes, most assuredly...but his heart was in the right place: unselfishly on Jehovah’s side.

Read 1 Chronicles 17:2 again. You’ll notice Nathan’s original message about building a house was never claimed by Nathan to be instruction from God. His subsequent message about not building a house was claimed to be instruction from God.

Had Nathan claimed his original message to be instruction from God he would have been deemed a false prophet…claiming he received words from God that God never spoke.

This is not the case with the Watchtower, which has at times claimed their dates to be God's dates rather than their own.

So When Jesus tested his followers, at John 6:51-69, Peter and the other Apostles knew where the truth came from...

There was nothing untrue or false about what Jesus stated. Sure, Jesus eventually had to explain it to them, but he never spoke a truth that was in need of “correction”.

You can clarify a prior truth, but there’s no need to correct truth. If truth needs correction it was never truth to begin with.

Remember Nineveh? Jonah pronounced it’s impending destruction through the Spirit of God. But Nineveh repented and was spared.

So was Jonah a false prophet? No! Because God has spoken 500 years earlier:

At any time I might announce that a nation or kingdom will be uprooted, torn down, and destroyed. But if that nation I warned turns from its evil, then I will relent of the disaster I had planned to inflict. (Jeremiah 18:7-8)​

I see no evidence and certainly no assertion by the Watchtower that the nations had “repented” in 1799, 1874, 1914, 1925, or 1940 and thus avoided or delayed the WT's promise of impending destruction.

Jehovah and Jesus allow tests today, just like Jesus did back then..... but that doesn’t negate the truths we’ve already learned, remembering who taught us.

Correct. We learned the truth about 1799, 1874, 1914, 1925 and other dates and who taught us these "truths".

Their ‘hearts are in the right place’, preaching the Kingdom message worldwide (Matthew 24:14), and all of us “speaking in agreement (1 Corinthians 1:10)” sharing global “brotherly love (1 Peter 1:22)”. It’s evidence of Jehovah’s spirit.

You were all “speaking in agreement” to the wrong truths…truths your Governing Board allegedly received from Jehovah. If your prophet speaks words that Jehovah did not ask him to speak, and your heart is still with the prophet, then your heart cannot possibly be with Jehovah. Jehovah’s heart is not with prophets who speak unrepentant untruths in His Name.

In the “Old Days” claiming Jehovah told you to say something He did not say might have been fatal, subjecting the prophet to stoning. But we are in a New Covenant of grace. The only thing the GB need do is apologize, repent, and ask Jesus forgiveness, something the GB consistently refuses to do.

Jehovah Witnesses are not the only church that has ever faced spiritual dilemma. All churches go through this at some point, and the Watchtower is no exception. The question is whether they are humble and repent, or consider their pride and refuse to do so.

The original Worldwide Church of God (now Grace Communion International) at one time claimed to be God’s exclusive representatives on earth, the “true religion”, much like the Watchtower does today. Despite your Organization's claim of uniqueness, they held many beliefs you would find familiar:

• No Trinity
• Disfellowship wrongdoers
• Great Tribulation about to come in the 1900s including 1975
• Only one true church, all other religions are children of the Devil
• No involvement in war
• Millennium as the major focus
• Cross a pagan symbol
• Christmas, Easter and Birthdays wrong
• Christianity is a way of life
• Cannot vote
• United Nations "10 horns, 10 kings, 10 crowns" of Revelation

They eventually chose a different path, their church hierarchy admitting to their mistakes, repenting, then asking God, current and past members for forgiveness. They initially split into two main groups (GCI and United Church of God) much like the Bible Students and Jehovah Witnesses did, and even experienced additional fractures like the Watchtower. They currently have about 900 churches across 100 different countries.

(I hear you scoffing now. So does Jehovah.)

I take the time to challenge not “scoff” your beliefs. To the extent possible, I try to do this in a very Berean-like manner (Acts 17:11).

It would be much easier to scoff…I could simply write “ha-ha-ha” and you could respond in kind but neither of us sees that as advancing discussion.

I enjoy our discussion HC, and that goes for Deeje also. So don't you, as the time and effort both of you have put into our discussions makes blatantly obvious. Granted we may not always "like" or agree with what the other writes, but we enjoy the opportunity to converse. Scriptural discussion might appear redundant, boring or predictable to the outside world, but every once in a while someone will toss a curve ball on the forum that keeps things interesting.

We can express ourselves with a freedom and opportunity that many in the world simply do not have and frankly may not always be present. Let the scoffers scoff at that if they wish, but don't forget there are skeptics out there who would consider any "biblically based" argument we put forth as "silly" and “ludicrous”.

 

[Oeste]

@Hockeycowboy, do you get the impression that someone just has to prove that we are wrong?

LOL, don't you hold the bible to be the word of God? So why would I want to prove you “wrong” about that? I’ve enthusiastically joined with JW’s in defending the bible against skeptics and atheists.

They've always appeared to enjoy the support… provided I don’t give any impression we’re working on the “same team”.

I wonder how many apostate sites he had to scour to post that junk?

You belong to one of the few religions I know who consider quotations from prior publications as “junk”.

Is it the appearance on an "apostate site" that makes the quote "junk", or does the Watchtower have a clear time-based policy? For example "Any publication published more than 10 years ago can be considered "junk truth" now?

Of course, if the Governing Board who wrote the Watchtower as God's truth back then is "not necessarily true" now, does that mean the prophets who wrote scripture as God's truth back then is "not necessarily true" now?

[B]Is there a different timeline for the truths published in the Watchtower than those published in scripture?[/B]

[QUOTE="Deeje, post: 5747309, member: 18814"][USER=58692]

We made some mistakes in the timing of one event, so we can't possibly have the truth.....can we? [/quote]

We’ve [I]all[/I] made mistakes Deeje. Do you think we’re so different in that regard? Do you know a religion that hasn't? The important thing is to own up to them rather them sweep them under a rug.

The truth is untruth if the truth was never true to begin with.

Jesus can state he is "the truth" because he doesn't change. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow (Hebrews 13:8). If your "truths" are constantly changing, becoming truth today and untruth tomorrow, then you are not "in the truth".

As stated previously, "truth" can get brighter but it never goes "dark", and the dates the WT gave us went dark.

[QUOTE="Deeje, post: 5747309, member: 18814"][USER=58692] We were instructed to "keep on the watch" which is what we have always done. The watchman's job was to sound the alert if they saw something in the distance approaching....if it proved to be a false alarm, everyone went back to business as usual, but the watchman had done his job. He will continue to do his best, like the rest of us. [/quote]

Keep watch, not sound the alarm Deeje. Any alarm you sounded would be useless anyways, because Jesus will come "like a thief in the night". Does your Organization doubt this? Is it there intent to catch Jesus sneaking up on Earth?

Look, you set up the watchman and he shouts “they’re coming, they’re coming!”, but when you climb the catwalk you see no one there. So you climb down and go back to business as usual. Before you get back though, the watchman shouts his alarm again, and still no one is there. He does this, every day, every week, every month, every year for the next 219 years.

At what point are the villagers justified in seeking a new Watchman?

[QUOTE="Deeje, post: 5747309, member: 18814"][USER=58692] I wonder how many of the people who belong to Christendom's churches are ready for what Jesus warned us was coming?[/quote]

Anyone relying on Christ has already been prepared by the Spirit. As to those relying on an “Organization”…their results may vary.

[QUOTE="Deeje, post: 5747309, member: 18814"][USER=58692] Do they "all speak in agreement" [/quote]

Paul is speaking about “unity” (Psalm 133-1-3) not “uniformity”...a common and frequent source of error in WT doctrine. There is nothing "Christian" or "biblical" about blindly repeating a false doctrine for the sake of "uniformity". Christ never called upon Christians to be "in agreement" with an untruth.

[INDENT]Jesus said to him, “I am the way, [B]and [U]the truth[/U][/B], and the life. No one comes to the Father[B] except through me[/B]. (John 14:6)[/INDENT]

Christ doesn't utter untruths Christians must agree with. This is why Christ is the center of our faith and the church. When you center your faith on a Governing Board, your results will vary.

[QUOTE="Deeje, post: 5747309, member: 18814"][USER=58692]and are they out there preaching the Kingdom message as Jesus instructed his disciples to do? (Matthew 28:19-20) Talk is cheap....actions speak louder. Excuses are not acceptable.[/quote]

We’ve been through this already Deeje. 1 Billion members with a “B”,…and growing. We're in every continent and nation in the world. If we're not out there preaching then s[I]omebody’s[/I] out there preaching the word for us. I'm sure it hasn't been the Watchtower.

What we [I]don’t [/I]preach is an alarmist message about impending doom during a time or hour no one knows about.

Death is not something you have to worry about once you accept Christ, whether that death is by natural or supernatural forces. And the message of the Kingdom was certainly not a message to accept a particular New York based organization lest you, your kids, your family, your home, your church, your synagogue, your mosque, or your temple get sucked into the ground by a divinely inspired earthquake.


[QUOTE="Deeje, post: 5747309, member: 18814"][USER=58692] Christendom's churches are not out there preaching the Kingdom message globally....(Matthew 10:11-15) Jesus said it was going to be done "in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations" before "the end" of this wicked system was to come. (Matthew 24:14) I have to ask...where are they? When was the last time any of Christendom's churches sent their people out with the kingdom message? Try asking them what the kingdom message is? They have no idea. Their shepherds have really let them down.[/quote]

We’ve already gone through this and you’re repeating yourself again. Didn’t you ask me if we were waiting for someone to “stumble into a church”, and didn’t I ask you if you’re waiting for someone to “stumble into a bible study”?

Where are your door-to-door publishers in Yemen, Syria, or Afghanistan? Are they waiting on Christendom to “make it safe” for them?

And by "Kingdom message"…No, if it meant preaching 1799, 1874, 1925, 1940 or 1975. Can you imagine if we had? The “scoffing” HockeyCowboy thought he heard from me would be loud and clear…from virtually every skeptic worldwide!

[QUOTE="Deeje, post: 5747309, member: 18814"][USER=58692] Did Jesus' own apostles make mistakes? Did God's servants of old need to be perfect? Did they get things wrong at times? [/quote]

They sure did! So what did they do? Did they grumble? Or did they follow Matthew 5:21-26?

[QUOTE="Deeje, post: 5747309, member: 18814"][USER=58692]Did it stop them from being God's people? [/quote]

Hubris, pride, self-righteousness, sanctimoniousness…all these things can impede our personal relationship with Christ.

The problem is when we fail to repent. The sin is not lifted until we do.

[QUOTE="Deeje, post: 5747309, member: 18814"][USER=58692] Did AFAIK God corrected them. He is still doing that.[/quote]

I think the only thing that “corrected” the Watchtower was time. They certainly have not apologized or repented. Until they do they are still in their sin.

[QUOTE="Deeje, post: 5747309, member: 18814"][USER=58692] I think it best to allow Jesus to answer those negative claims......but you know what they say about people who live in glass houses....time to clean up their own backyard first. [IMG]https://www.religiousforums.com/file:///C:\Users\Doug\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]

[I]Exactly[/I] Deeje! And that’s why we don’t see the historic Christian church distributing publications condemning the faith of Jehovah Witnesses, describing the Watchtower as a whore, or depicting scenes of gleeful Christians as flaming hot meteors fly into your Kingdom Halls.

We can only hope that one day the WT will finally “get” your memo[/user][/user][/user][/user][/user][/user][/user][/user][/user][/user]

 

[RedhorseWoman]

You have a whole family there, just in your pets.....
We have ducks, 2 elderly cats and two mini-dachshunds who live for the beach and swimming. The Black/Tan one won't come out of the sea when told to so I have to get wet before we can go home.


Yes..... they are our family, and the hounds are like her children.

View attachment 23789

Ducks are so cute. We sometimes have wild ducks that swim in the temporary pools that often form in our pasture in the Spring time, but that's about it.

Your dogs are adorable.

 

[Deeje]

You belong to one of the few religions I know who consider quotations from prior publications as “junk”.

No, it's not junk......clarifications are continuous, so we don't get bogged down in yesterday's understanding. We aren't fixed in our understanding or else Jesus would have revealed everything at once to his apostles. He gave them their "food at the proper time" and instructed his "faithful slave" to do the same when distributing "food" to his household. Do you have a week's worth of food in one sitting? We get what we need, when we need it. We are not stuck with ancient understanding that is never updated.

What if science operated like Christendom?

Is it the appearance on an "apostate site" that makes the quote "Any publication published more than 10 years ago can be considered "junk truth" now?

Apostates love to accentuate all that they perceive is wrong with our teachings....but seriously, none of it matters to those of us who see what we have as unique in the world, and value it.

Daniel prophesied that a "cleansing, whitening and refining" was due among God's people in "the time of the end".....why would he foretell that if Christianity wasn't polluted. Why would a cleansing be necessary if there was no filth...a whitening if there was no stain...or a refining if there were no impurities to bring to the surface and skim off. We believe we have done that, whilst Christendom has clung to it's old polluted doctrines as if they are snowy white.

The truth is untruth if the truth was never true to begin with.

That is so true.....laughably true.

Jesus can state he is "the truth" because he doesn't change. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow (Hebrews 13:8). If your "truths" are constantly changing, becoming truth today and untruth tomorrow, then you are not "in the truth".

Jesus is the same....but Christendom changed everything he taught. If you believe the lies that were adopted into Christianity centuries ago, then the Christianity you practice is not Christian. Not even close.

Keep watch, not sound the alarm Deeje. Any alarm you sounded would be useless anyways, because Jesus will come "like a thief in the night". Does your Organization doubt this? Is it there intent to catch Jesus sneaking up on Earth?

So no need to keep on the watch then ....? What is the point of the watchman if he remains silent? We have never set a day or hour, but only speculated about certain years......no one died because we speculated. Those who over reacted did so of their own volition. The faithful remained...and are still preaching....when did Christendom go silent...and with whose permission?

We’ve been through this already Deeje. 1 Billion members with a “B”,…and growing. We're in every continent and nation in the world. If we're not out there preaching then somebody’s out there preaching the word for us. I'm sure it hasn't been the Watchtower.

Who is "we"? Someone else's job.....yeah it always is.

Where are your door-to-door publishers in Yemen, Syria, or Afghanistan? Are they waiting on Christendom to “make it safe” for them?

Are you serious? We have brothers in every nation, but like our early counterparts, we operate underground in places where it is not safe to be a Christian. Who is stupid enough to paint a target on their back in countries that behead infidels?

The problem is when we fail to repent. The sin is not lifted

True that. But try applying it to Christendom next time you see a clergyman supporting political bloodshed. (Isaiah 1:15)

And that’s why we don’t see the historic Christian church distributing publications condemning the faith of Jehovah Witnesses, describing the Watchtower as a whore, or depicting scenes of gleeful Christians as flaming hot meteors fly into your Kingdom Halls.

Depending on the circumstances of the day, sometimes people need to be shocked out of their complacency. Today, nothing has shock value.

We can only hope that one day the WT will finally “get” your memo

I can assure you that Christendom will never "get" God's memo.


We got the important memo...to get out of Babylon the great.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

No, it's not junk......clarifications are continuous, so we don't get bogged down in yesterday's understanding. We aren't fixed in our understanding or else Jesus would have revealed everything at once to his apostles. He gave them their "food at the proper time" and instructed his "faithful slave" to do the same when distributing "food" to his household. Do you have a week's worth of food in one sitting? We get what we need, when we need it. We are not stuck with ancient understanding that is never updated.

And yet, JWs claim that the "food" they get is from Jehovah, but that "food" tends to get discarded rather quickly. Seldom is the "food" merely improved upon (i.e. the light getting brighter) but rather is discarded as rotten and no longer "truth." There are times, as well, that the latest "food" presented as "truth" is "food" that had previously been discarded as no longer of any value and no longer "truth."

You get whatever the latest opinions of men are...and that's it in a nutshell. It is not "food at the proper time"...it is the latest opinions of the JW leaders based on how much of their previous opinions and "best guesses" have been proven to be flat-out wrong.

Apostates love to accentuate all that they perceive is wrong with our teachings....but seriously, none of it matters to those of us who see what we have as unique in the world, and value it.

Aw, come on Deeje...all apostates are doing is what all of us were trained to do as JWs, which was to show "love" by pointing out all the things that the JW leaders perceived to be wrong with the teachings of every other religion on the face of the earth. We learned well. We know that JWs express "love" by pointing out perceived flaws in other religions, and we are merely doing the same now that we have become aware of the flaws in the JW religion. We are showing love by pointing out the flaws of the JW religion. You should be proud of us!

Daniel prophesied that a "cleansing, whitening and refining" was due among God's people in "the time of the end".....why would he foretell that if Christianity wasn't polluted. Why would a cleansing be necessary if there was no filth...a whitening if there was no stain...or a refining if there were no impurities to bring to the surface and skim off. We believe we have done that, whilst Christendom has clung to it's old polluted doctrines as if they are snowy white.

And now the filth in the JW organization is being exposed as well as the stains. For some reason, JWs seem to hate that the filth is being brought to light. They seem to prefer that it remain hidden.

So no need to keep on the watch then ....? What is the point of the watchman if he remains silent? We have never set a day or hour, but only speculated about certain years......no one died because we speculated. Those who over reacted did so of their own volition. The faithful remained...and are still preaching....when did Christendom go silent...and with whose permission?

Oh, come now, Deeje. Only speculated? You've been a JW a long time...you KNOW how the Society hyped those dates. You KNOW how they constantly stressed that "the time is so short" in the "few remaining MONTHS before Armageddon arrives." The WTS caused many JWs to react--not over react--to what THEY were pushing, but then they turned around and blamed those faithful and zealous JWs for believing them.

We got the important memo...to get out of Babylon the great.

Like it or not, JWs are as much a part of Babylon the Great as are any of the religions they criticize.

 

[Oeste]

That is so true.....laughably true.

Then let's agree to agree on this, and simply agree to disagree on the rest.

I think its been a good discussion and I appreciate the time you've taken to thoughtfully respond.

 

[Oeste]

@RedhorseWoman

I wanted to thank you for participating in the discussion as well. I was never a member like you, but I do have family in the organization and I did go on field service and attended meetings and assemblies for several years.

I was told not to go to college because there would be no graduation...Armageddon was "just around the corner". This was in '71, and by that time there was the big buildup to '75. By '74 people were pioneering, selling their homes and borrowing money they thought they would never have to repay.

I attended college anyways and stopped going to the Kingdom Hall for a while because of the constant pressure to go on field service and get baptized (which to me meant I would then be "marked" for marriage, something I didn't want at the time, lol) before it became "too late".

But I had already seen what happened to folks who got baptized...they no longer got to back to you with answers because all the questions you needed to ask were now located at the bottom of the page.You could also be shunned, like a friend of mine who was kicked out of his mother's home for not attending meetings or going on field service. Her actions were well received in the Kingdom Hall, but they were devastating to my friend. He eventually died from a drug overdose.

In any event, My next visit was around, I believe December '75 or January '76. Moral certainly appeared low (a lot of the chairs were empty) but I can still remember one of the elders, Brother Robinson, standing after the meeting in the back of the hall, loudly telling himself that he didn't remember anyone talking about 1975. An amazing thing considering "Stay alive 'till '75" had been a mantra for so long and had been the most exciting thing, the part everyone waited for, in virtually every Assembly for the prior 7 years (I believe I first attended in '68). I realized then I no longer needed to attend or feel guilty about participating at Kingdom Halls.

I still saw my old friends on plenty of occasions but things weren't the same. I was no longer invited to their activities but this didn't bother me very much, having made friends in college. I also started attending a Baptist church.

About 30 years later someone left a pamphlet on my door. It had a priest on the cover suggesting my (Christendom) church tolerated child abuse. Given what I heard from the brothers at the Kingdom Hall (they can be as gabby as some of the women) I was incensed at the hypocrisy and eventually found my way online. I also started to read the bible and began to explore some of the teachings of the Watchtower.

I've had several studies since then. I've gotten some of them to last 7-10 weeks before they're terminated. My house apparently gets marked as a no-call for a while, but at least they'll get witnessed.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Read 1 Chronicles 17:2 again. You’ll notice Nathan’s original message about building a house was never claimed by Nathan to be instruction from God. His subsequent message about not building a house was claimed to be instruction from God.

Come on, Oeste....Nathan was in effect telling David to build the house.... “ go do, for Jehovah is with you.”(2 Samuel 7:3 That sounds like speaking for God!

So was Jonah a false prophet? No! Because God has spoken 500 years earlier:

At any time I might announce that a nation or kingdom will be uprooted, torn down, and destroyed. But if that nation I warned turns from its evil, then I will relent of the disaster I had planned to inflict. (Jeremiah 18:7-8)

I never said nor implied anything about Jonah. In this instance, Jehovah changed His mind due to the Assyrians’ repentance... short-lived though it was.

And BTW, Jerimiah lived about 200 years after Jonah. After the Assyrians subdued the 10 tribes. Where did you get ‘500 years earlier’?

And another thing. In a previous post, you said what was stated about 1914 by all those respected men, how the world was changed afterward, was basically unimportant. That indicates an agenda by you, to discredit the “WT” at any cost? (Hope I’m wrong.) I guess if some can’t remove the evidence that the Last Days began in 1914, they’ll ignore it, huh?

 

[RedhorseWoman]

@RedhorseWoman

I wanted to thank you for participating in the discussion as well. I was never a member like you, but I do have family in the organization and I did go on field service and attended meetings and assemblies for several years.

You're welcome. You're also very lucky that you were never baptized as a JW.

I was told not to go to college because there would be no graduation...Armageddon was "just around the corner". This was in '71, and by that time there was the big buildup to '75. By '74 people were pioneering, selling their homes and borrowing money they thought they would never have to repay.

I graduated from High School in '65, and, of course, as a "good JW" at the time, I did not go to college. My teachers all through Junior High and High School were pretty upset with me when I insisted that I wanted to be "missionary" (aka JW Pioneer) rather than "wasting" my time in college, since, of course, the "end" was so close.

I did pioneer for about three years until I became very sick and ended up in the hospital and had to quit the pioneer ministry.

I attended college anyways and stopped going to the Kingdom Hall for a while because of the constant pressure to go on field service and get baptized (which to me meant I would then be "marked" for marriage, something I didn't want at the time, lol) before it became "too late".

So many of us believed the "truth" that was being taught about 1975 and never took advantage of a higher education. I was fortunate, however, to get the opportunity about a decade later to learn computer programming on the job and that did provide me with a decent career until I retired.

But I had already seen what happened to folks who got baptized...they no longer got to back to you with answers because all the questions you needed to ask were now located at the bottom of the page.You could also be shunned, like a friend of mine who was kicked out of his mother's home for not attending meetings or going on field service. Her actions were well received in the Kingdom Hall, but they were devastating to my friend. He eventually died from a drug overdose.

Things like that happened all the time. After getting on the internet, years after I had become inactive, I "met" a young woman whose parents (father an elder) had thrown her and her younger sister out of the house when they were just teenagers simply because they expressed doubts about some of the JW teachings.

I sort of became a surrogate mother to her, and she ended up doing okay--getting educated, becoming a teacher, getting married and having a child, but her parents never spoke to her again.

In any event, My next visit was around, I believe December '75 or January '76. Moral certainly appeared low (a lot of the chairs were empty) but I can still remember one of the elders, Brother Robinson, standing after the meeting in the back of the hall, loudly telling himself that he didn't remember anyone talking about 1975. An amazing thing considering "Stay alive 'till '75" had been a mantra for so long and had been the most exciting thing, the part everyone waited for, in virtually every Assembly for the prior 7 years (I believe I first attended in '68). I realized then I no longer needed to attend or feel guilty about participating at Kingdom Halls.

I really don't understand why so many JWs flat-out deny that there was any hype about 1975. Most of the JWs I knew were in a flurry of excitement. My pioneer partner and her mother were busily stashing canned goods and Watchtower literature in their attic in preparation for the "Great Tribulation."

I did notice, however, that buried in all the hype (i.e. in the few months before Armageddon, etc.) there were a few waffle words or phrases such as not knowing if the 6,000 years would coincide with Adam's creation or Eve's, which could push the date out some...but they always stated that it would be only months and not years.

I still saw my old friends on plenty of occasions but things weren't the same. I was no longer invited to their activities but this didn't bother me very much, having made friends in college. I also started attending a Baptist church.

Again, you were lucky that you basically remained on the fringes. Those of us who were baptized into the religion and who tried to be "good JWs" and follow all the rules discovered that our JW friends and JW family members wanted nothing to do with us once we left the organization, and, since we had tried to be "good JWs" we never made "worldly" friends and were extremely inept at establishing relationships outside the organization.

About 30 years later someone left a pamphlet on my door. It had a priest on the cover suggesting my (Christendom) church tolerated child abuse. Given what I heard from the brothers at the Kingdom Hall (they can be as gabby as some of the women) I was incensed at the hypocrisy and eventually found my way online. I also started to read the bible and began to explore some of the teachings of the Watchtower.

I've had several studies since then. I've gotten some of them to last 7-10 weeks before they're terminated. My house apparently gets marked as a no-call for a while, but at least they'll get witnessed.

Yes, I remember some of those condemnatory articles about other churches and their toleration of child abuse. That's why it really bothers me when JWs now refuse to acknowledge the problems with child abuse that have been going on for decades in the JW organization and that were covered up time and time again.

As I stated previously, the majority of JWs that you try to discuss this issue with will defend the organization and vilify the victims. I find it difficult to wrap my head around such a mindset. Why won't they acknowledge that there have been problems and that the organization needs to clean up its act and do something to aid the victims of its cover-ups?

 

[Oeste]

Come on, Oeste....Nathan was in effect telling David to build the house.... “ go do, for Jehovah is with you.”(2 Samuel 7:3 That sounds like speaking for God!

There is a phrase “Vaya con Dios” which simply means “Go with God”. It doesn’t mean you’re speaking for God. It simply means you’re wishing God will guide that person’s path, or “good-bye”. That’s the usage here.

In order to exegete the verse properly we have to apply our hermeneutics consistently. Both 1 Chronicles 17 and 2 Samuel 7 make it extremely clear when Nathan is speaking, and when Nathan is speaking for God:

7 After the king was settled in his palace and the Lord had given him rest from all his enemies around him, 2 he said to Nathan the prophet, “Here I am, living in a house of cedar, while the ark of God remains in a tent.”

3 Nathan replied to the king, “Whatever you have in mind, go ahead and do it, for the Lord is with you.”​

These verses show two guys talking. There is no need to insert Jehovah’s voice into the king (David) and certainly no need to insert the voice of God into Nathan.

If you want to insert God’s voice into Nathan you would have to explain why you didn’t insert it into David’s instead. If you want to insert God’s voice into David, you would have to explain why you didn’t insert it into Nathan’s instead. You could also have God arguing with Himself by inserting His voice into both of them, which of course would make no sense.

God’s voice doesn’t enter the picture, and Nathan is not commanded to speak for God until later, which is verse 4:

“But that night the word of the Lord came to Nathan, saying “Go and tell my servant David...”​

It is from this point that the words of Nathan must be infallible and without error, because they are the words of God.

In short, Nathan’s words from the outset were not the words of God and he never claimed they were. This is in stark contrast to the Watchtower which has from the outset claimed 1914 and 1925 to be dates from God.

For example, here is what the WT (5/15/22) claimed about 1925:

​

You’ll notice the Watchtower stamped these dates with “God’s approval”…not their own.

Also note the sentence toward the bottom “The fact that all the things that SOME looked for in 1914…” when it was, in actuality they who had pushed the date.

And BTW, Jerimiah lived about 200 years after Jonah.

Good catch! A mistake on my part…your correction is noted.

Where did you get ‘500 years earlier’?

From being tired, doing too many things at once, and from too many Old Testament folk starting with the letter “J”!

Besides, as Deeje said earlier:

Not many of us are walking Bible encyclopedias you know.

LOL, this is good to know. I'm certainly no walking Bible encyclopedia either.

And another thing. In a previous post, you said what was stated about 1914 by all those respected men, how the world was changed afterward, was basically unimportant.

Not unimportant, just Euro-centric. The “Great European War” as it was originally known primarily affected Europeans and North Americans. I notice the “respected men” you quoted (a rare compliment for a secular source, reserved for those who make a point agreeable to the WT) originate from these same sources.

How was the world changed for the average Egyptian, Mexican, Indian, African, Japanese or Argentinian? They are "mankind” just as any European or American, and for most their world was no more different in 1918 than it was in 1914.

The Second World War was different...much more global and involving a lot more countries. The mass production of guns and cannons (Early modern warfare) had a significant impact on mankind. Europe could not have colonized without them. Lenin's was greatly affected by Karl Marx's book, the Communist Manifesto which would eventually take Russia out of the European war, yet have a deleterious affect on mankind, as authoritarian Communist regimes would arise long after WW1 had ended. The Declaration of Independence and Emancipation Proclamation had a meritorious affect, as can be seen by our free discussion on this forum.

But this is simply a sidebar. The WT didn't predict a war in 1914, it predicted Armageddon.

Look, some guy predicts a meteor will fall and totally destroy New York City 3 months from now. The day comes and goes and nothing happens. A month later a bomb explodes in the subway. Do you consider the prophesy fulfilled?

Well, that's what the WT is asking "Christendom" to do now.

That indicates an agenda by you, to discredit the “WT” at any cost? (Hope I’m wrong.)

Unless we see the world through the Watchtower’s Eurocentric lens, we’re discrediting the WT?? What about the discredit of seeing the world through a Eurocentric lens?

There were other “World Wars” not classified as such in history. The American Indian Wars, a war between Europe/US and the indigenous populations of South, Central, and North America lasted 300 years between 1622 – 1924. The rush to Africa involved war, slavery and the establishment of colonies in Africa. King Leopold II of Belgium is reputed to have killed approximately 10 million people in the Congo, and Leopold was simply one ruler of one country.

Certainly if Africans landed in Belgium, enslaved and killed 10 million people, it would have been called a war. If they had invaded all of Europe, it would be called a World War. But since the war involved all of Africa, it is more aptly described as a forgotten war.

Scripture tells us nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom. When viewed through Revelation the scripture is easily seen as a near extinction level event. When the bowls are poured they will launch cataclysmic events where each nation and kingdom is struggling to survive. As such, the events of Matthew 24 will be even greater than WW2.

Lastly, and because I want to bring this discussion further into scripture, it’s important for Jehovah Witnesses to remember that even demons have predicted the future.

As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had ya spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling. crying out, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation.” Acts 16:16​

I guess if some can’t remove the evidence that the Last Days began in 1914, they’ll ignore it, huh?

It'll be removed soon enough if they haven't removed it already, and you'll accept the verdict without a peep. Remember, the "1914 generation" and the "Millions living will never die" have already passed away.

*Edited 8/25/18

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Not unimportant, just Euro-centric. The “Great European War” as it was originally known primarily affected Europeans and North Americans.

People called it, "the Great War"...if someone said that, others knew what they meant!

Those quotes, from well-established sources I used, said the world was affected, not just the northern hemisphere.....besides, it was a "beginning" of pangs of distress.

 

[Agent]

We have no belief in hell. That idea does not come from the Bible.

The only choice that God gave us was "life or death".....not heaven or hell.

Jehovah's Witnesses told me to go to the chapter on hell.
I went to the Live Forever Book p. 83
9. (a) What is the condition of those in Sheol? (b) So what are Sheol and Hades?
In all the places where Sheol occurs in the Bible it is never associated with life, activity or torment. Rather, it is often linked with death and inactivity. So the answer becomes very clear. Sheol and Hades refer not to a place of torment but to the common grave of mankind. (Psalm 139:8)
The living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead; they are conscious of nothing at all.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

People called it, "the Great War"...if someone said that, others knew what they meant!

Those quotes, from well-established sources I used, said the world was affected, not just the northern hemisphere.....besides, it was a "beginning" of pangs of distress.

Contrary to what you need to believe, the world today is no worse than it has been many times in the past.

 

[Deeje]

Jehovah's Witnesses told me to go to the chapter on hell.
I went to the Live Forever Book p. 83
9. (a) What is the condition of those in Sheol? (b) So what are Sheol and Hades?
In all the places where Sheol occurs in the Bible it is never associated with life, activity or torment. Rather, it is often linked with death and inactivity. So the answer becomes very clear. Sheol and Hades refer not to a place of torment but to the common grave of mankind. (Psalm 139:8)
The living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead; they are conscious of nothing at all.

Perhaps I should have qualified that statement...."we have no belief in Christendom's hell of eternal torment."

"Hell" (sheol, hades) is simply the place where we all go....the common grave. We sleep peacefully there awaiting the resurrection. Both the "righteous and the unrighteous" will awaken (Acts 24:15; John 5:28-29) but the wicked will never see life again. "Gehenna" is not "hell".

The Bible's teachings can easily be reconciled if you understand what the ancient Jews were taught from the beginning.

 

[Oeste]

People called it, "the Great War"...if someone said that, others knew what they meant!

There have been quite a few great wars. If you were a Comanche or Cheyenne Indian, the Red River War was a "Great War" because it destroyed your home and way of life for your family, neighbors and nation. If you lived along the river Somme in France, not so much.

Likewise if you lived along the river Somme, the European War was a "Great War" because it destroyed your home and way of life for years to come. If you were a Comanche or Cheyenne Indian, not so much.

Those quotes, from well-established sources I used, said the world was affected, not just the northern hemisphere.....besides, it was a "beginning" of pangs of distress.

Whose "world" and who established your "well-established" source"? Is your "well-established" source biblical? Does God see the "world" through the same lens as your "well-established" source?

Matthew 24 speaks of a global catastrophe that affects mankind. That means everyone, from the Chinese, to the Cheyenne, from the English to the Maasai, from the Eskimo to the...you get the idea.

Obviously we see Matthew 24 differently. You see it as an event already fulfilled because it affected the Western world. I see it as something yet to come that will affect the globe. But not all Western powers were even affected by the war in 1914... in fact, they wouldn't get involve until 3 years later, and the war would be over a year after that. In other words, it didn't become a "world war" for the Western world until 1917.

The Watchtower did not predicate a regional war would break out in 1914. It predicted Armageddon, so this is still sidebar. The Watchtower has a 100% failure rate when it comes to predictions so it's hard to see why their members point to "fulfillment". Besides, as I stated before, the 1914 generation has passed away and the "Millions now living will never die" (another failed WT prophesy) have died. There are less than a half million people over the age of 100 living in the world today.

Will scripture be fulfilled? Yes, but as history has shown, it will be on God's rather than the Watchtower's timeline.

 

[Oeste]

“The whole world really blew up about World War I and we still don’t know why. Before then, men thought that utopia was in sight. There was peace and prosperity. Then everything blew up. We’ve been in a state of suspended animation ever since . . . More people have been killed in this century than in all of history.” (Dr. Walker Percy, American Medical News, November 21, 1977)


“Everything would get better and better. This was the world I was born in. . . . Suddenly, unexpectedly, one morning in 1914 the whole thing came to an end.” (British statesman Harold Macmillan, The New York Times, November 23, 1980)


“The last completely ‘normal’ year in history was 1913, the year before World War I began.” (Times-Herald, Washington, D.C., March 13, 1949)

“Neither the old nor the young had any suspicion that what they were witnessing, during that incomparable season of 1914, was, in fact, the end of an era.” (Before the Lamps Went Out, by Geoffrey Marcus)

24 is

I know Jehovah Witnesses are always willing to give credit to secular based, "well established sources" , but even a quick perusal shows that Matthew 24 is not describing 1914.

All these sources say 1914 was sudden and unexpected, but that's not what Matthew 24 describes:

6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you dare not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places.​

Before "nation rises against nation" we see Christians will "hear of wars and rumors of wars". Yet WWI took those involved by surprise.

What wars and "rumors of wars" does the WT claim were floating among the public prior to 1914? Also, why would we see virtually the same number of earthquakes in 1914 as we do in 1913? Also, why was the Watchtower "alarming" people about 1914 when Christ himself told us not to be? It's a century later, and it seems JW's are still attempting to "alarm" us about something Christ said we need not be alarmed about.

 

[Agent]

Since those who are thrown into "the lake of fire' go into "second death" from which there is no resurrection, they are, so to speak, jailed forever in death. They remain in death as though in the custody of jailers for all eternity. The wicked, of course, are not literally tormented because, as we have seen, when a person is dead he is completely out of existence. He is not conscious of anything. P 88

12. 13. (a) Why can we be sure that Lazarus was unconscious when he was dead?

Well, Jesus knew that the dead Lazarus was unconscious, as the Bible says: "The dead . . . are conscious of nothing at all." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

3. (a) What is death? (b) What does Ecclesiastes 9:5. 10 say about the condition of the dead? -

Simply stated, death is the opposite of life. The Bible shows this at Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10. According to the Authorized or King James Version, these verses say: "For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not my thing, neither have they any more a reward; - for the memory of them is forgotten. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there-is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." This means that the dead cannot do anything and cannot feel anything. They no longer have any thoughts, as the Bible states: "Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish." (Psalm 146:3, 4)

God did not create man with a soul. Man is a soul. So, as we would expect, when man dies, his soul dies. Over and over again the Bible says that this is true. Never does the Bible say the soul is deathless or that it cannot die. "All those going down to the dust will bend down, and no one will ever preserve his own soul alive," Psalm 22:29 says. "The soul that is sinning-it itself will die," explains Ezekiel 18:4 and 20. -

 

[Deeje]

Lesson 1, tutorial, 1, in how to completely selectively read ones bible.

LOL...you mean like you do?

 

[Deeje]

It's coming....the time is near.

Yes I know...are you on board the ark? The door will close soon. (Matthew 24:37-39)

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Yes I know...are you on board the ark? The door will close soon. (Matthew 24:37-39)

Tell us, Deeje, who are the ones that the JWs believe are on that Ark?