Should I Become A Jehovah's Witness?

[Deeje]

I don't like to get involved in disputes but I'm not feeling the JW love here.

God doesn't feel it either. When Israel fell to worshipping Baal.....

"Then E·liʹjah approached all the people and said: “How long will you be limping between two different opinions? If Jehovah is the true God, follow him; but if Baʹal is, follow him!”

There is no limping on two different opinions.
I'm sorry but indecisive people frustrate me. I think they frustrate Jehovah too....according to James 1:5-8....

"So if any one of you is lacking in wisdom, let him keep asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching, and it will be given him. 6 But let him keep asking in faith, not doubting at all, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. 7 In fact, that man should not expect to receive anything from Jehovah; 8 he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways."

What answer can you get if you are asking everyone but the right person for spiritual advice?
That advice will possibly lead to a decision that will alter the rest of your life. Does that sound like the actions of a rational person?

I honestly feel sorry for him, because I believe that he is his own worst enemy. If pride is the issue, then a fall is inevitable. (Proverbs 16:18) Jehovah can pick up a humble person and heal them, but he will not offer a hand to someone who sees no fault in what they are doing. God will not change for us...we need to change for him. If we want God to forgive us, we have to be willing to forgive others. (Matthew 18:35)

We cannot have different views to the rest of our brotherhood, (1 Corinthians 1:10) so unless we alter those views, we will remain outside, alone with our own ideas, and angry that we can't have what we want.

I have removed myself from any further comment with him because it is a pointless exercise to continue.
I don't have to associate with someone who bad mouths my brothers whilst claiming to want to be one.

 

[Spiderman]

God doesn't feel it either. When Israel fell to worshipping Baal.....

"Then E·liʹjah approached all the people and said: “How long will you be limping between two different opinions? If Jehovah is the true God, follow him; but if Baʹal is, follow him!”

There is no limping on two different opinions.
I'm sorry but indecisive people frustrate me. I think they frustrate Jehovah too....according to James 1:5-8....

"So if any one of you is lacking in wisdom, let him keep asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching, and it will be given him. 6 But let him keep asking in faith, not doubting at all, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. 7 In fact, that man should not expect to receive anything from Jehovah; 8 he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways."

What answer can you get if you are asking everyone but the right person for spiritual advice?
That advice will possibly lead to a decision that will alter the rest of your life. Does that sound like the actions of a rational person?

I honestly feel sorry for him, because I believe that he is his own worst enemy. If pride is the issue, then a fall is inevitable. (Proverbs 16:18) Jehovah can pick up a humble person and heal them, but he will not offer a hand to someone who sees no fault in what they are doing. God will not change for us...we need to change for him. If we want God to forgive us, we have to be willing to forgive others. (Matthew 18:35)

We cannot have different views to the rest of our brotherhood, (1 Corinthians 1:10) so unless we alter those views, we will remain outside, alone with our own ideas, and angry that we can't have what we want.

I have removed myself from any further comment with him because it is a pointless exercise to continue.
I don't have to associate with someone who bad mouths my brothers whilst claiming to want to be one.

Why do you compare the worship of Ba'al to the practices of most of Christendom, which adheres to the belief that there is one God?

 

[Katzpur]

Think of it like this. You believe in science because the verifiable evidence, but now you have to choose a university to study, or teach or do science things in.

I believe the Bible. That isn't an issue. 99% of Christianity doesn't teach the Bible, they teach life lessons, and Greek philosophy. Those aren't an option for me. The Jehovah's Witnesses, aside from a few minor eccentricities and imperfections, teach the Bible.

To some extent, I think you're right. I think much of mainstream Christianity is a mixture of scripture and Greek philosophy, and I can't accept those things as true. (The doctrine of the Trinity would be a prime example.) I'd always assumed (up until you started this thread, in fact) that you already were a Jehovah's Witness. I would suggest that you consider just one thing before you make it official: In other words, the JWs may "teach the Bible," but then again, what they're really teaching is just their interpretation of the Bible. That's all any of the rest of us are doing, too. There are many ways in which scripture can be interpreted (which is not to say that all interpretations are correct). While the JWs may have some pretty good arguments on certain issues, knowledgeable members of other denominations do, too. For instance, I believe I could provide some pretty convincing arguments against a number of their doctrines using the Bible as my sole source. (I make it a point not to debate them because I've never engaged in a debate with a JW that hasn't turned ugly in the end.) Don't let your decision be based on who the best debater is. Just because someone is a top-notch debater doesn't mean that he has the truth. There is ultimately only one way any person can come to a sure knowledge of the truth and that is by God communicating to that person through the Holy Ghost.

 

[Deeje]

Scripture says the whole law is summed up in love, and doing good deeds for others. We will be judged on account of it. Countless Catholics are doing just that.

PaD, my beef is not with "countless Catholics" who, I am sure are doing good deeds for many people. Its the church and its teachings that are at issue. The "weeds" of false Christianity were sown not long after Jesus died. With the death of the Apostles, (while men were sleeping) there was nothing to restrain the foretold apostasy from gaining ground. History shows that the church's conduct was anything but Christ-like.

Since I don't know the Bible is true. It contains contradictions. I don't know the correct interpretation, and much of it goes against my conscience, i have to simply follow the law of love.

I have been studying the Bible in depth for over 45 years and you are correct, the law of love is the main one for us as followers of Christ. It means showing the same love that he did, imitating his thinking and conduct. He had a totally different attitude to the Pharisees than he did to the people that were spiritually neglected by them.

I see the same in the churches today. I see a paid clergy class cashing in on a church system where a convicted pedophile still gets paid in retirement and gets a new car every three years. It was on our news just this week. The Pope lives in a gold inlaid palace with servants....did Jesus?

In the first century, you had to be a Christian in order to benefit from the generosity of your brothers, if you were poor. If you were able bodied, you were expected to work for your own food.

The Apostle Paul wrote.....
"Now we are giving you instructions, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother who is walking disorderly and not according to the tradition that you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you should imitate us, because we did not behave in a disorderly way among you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s food free. On the contrary, by labor and toil we were working night and day so as not to impose an expensive burden on any one of you. 9 Not that we do not have authority, but we wanted to offer ourselves as an example for you to imitate. 10 In fact, when we were with you, we used to give you this order: “If anyone does not want to work, neither let him eat.” (2 Thessalonians 3:6-10)

Do you see the difference? True charity is not in just handouts. We should all help each other in whatever ways we can.

I don't know how to interpret the text and God never told me what is true. Therefore, I and many others are not at fault for being confused.

The truth is there for all to accept or to reject. God opens the eyes of those in whom he sees a good heart and an obedient spirit. Confusion is not caused by God but by the one who rules this world. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4; 1 John 5:19) He can only "blind the minds of the unbelievers" however.

Asking God to help you to see the truth is a good place to start. It will have a ring to it that is not easily dismissed.
Being raised in the church system, I have been on both sides of this fence and when I heard the truth, it was like music to my ears. I had no loyalty to my church which I left long before I ever met JW's. They were the only ones carrying out the commission Jesus gave. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20) That is how I met them. They were the only ones following what Jesus taught. That was my experience.

I know you have had a rough life, but God knows the sum total for all of us and and what has led us to where we are at present....he will judge us accordingly....with love and compassion for what is not our fault. You seem like a good person at heart.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

*MOD POST* Just a reminder that seekers circle is a discussion forum. Sharing perspectives is welcome but back and forth debate should be kept to debate forums. *MOD POST*

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thanks for the response Deeje

Having had interactions with you both on RF, I wondered what was going on. You're clearly a JW. @RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha is a bible believing Christian who obviously has some affinity and history with your faith but clearly with some ambivalence thatv I asked him about earlier in the thread, He seemed really negative about the JW stance on blood transfusions on another thread so I asked how that was compatible with becoming a JW.

There is no limping on two different opinions.
I'm sorry but indecisive people frustrate me.

If there is significant ambivalence and lack of commitment about the fundamentals of a religion, then best to keep investigating rather than prematurely joining up rather than ending up leaving again in a few months time.

What answer can you get if you are asking everyone but the right person for spiritual advice?
That advice will possibly lead to a decision that will alter the rest of your life. Does that sound like the actions of a rational person?

Its an interesting approach asking us (RF folks) all whether or not he should join a religion. Along as there's reflection and prayer also it doesn't bother me.

I honestly feel sorry for him, because I believe that he is his own worst enemy. If pride is the issue, then a fall is inevitable. (Proverbs 16:18) Jehovah can pick up a humble person and heal them, but he will not offer a hand to someone who sees no fault in what they are doing. God will not change for us...we need to change for him. If we want God to forgive us, we have to be willing to forgive others. (Matthew 18:35)

Over the years I've learnt to accept people as they are. No one can walk in the shoes of another. We each have spiritual battles we alone must fight.

We cannot have different views to the rest of our brotherhood, (1 Corinthians 1:10) so unless we alter those views, we will remain outside, alone with our own ideas, and angry that we can't have what we want.

I get it.

I have removed myself from any further comment with him because it is a pointless exercise to continue.
I don't have to associate with someone who bad mouths my brothers whilst claiming to want to be one.

I can see how frustrating it is for you. I wonder how Jesus would ask us to respond?

Thanks again for your candid response.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

For my part I think it would very much depend on which congregation you go to. While not THE most important thing, these people are people you see a lot of you attend all the meetings and if people treat you poorly for having doubts and differences then it might not be the place or you. Hard to have fellowship if you don't have fellows.

To that end I would go to your local kingdom hall and check it out for yourself. See if it feels like it could fit.

Good luck seeking.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Your number one consideration should be whether you can keep going. Lets suppose you convert, well those repetitious meetings you do not like will become your world. Consider that adding an ounce to your backpack may not seem like much but on a 100 mile hike it will matter. You want to face the world and go against the grain? You cannot do it well if there is a rock in your shoe or if your shoe is too tight. Make sure that these little things are not going to be like that. Thats my thought.

 

[stvdv]

27 jul 2018 stvdv 020 20 info
Disclaimer [someone reported me on a technicality some time ago, that's why this disclaimer]: Below is my personal opinion. The quote I used is from my guru. He wants us not to proselytize, so I am NOT proselytizing.

When you were doing the vile things of your (former?) lifestyle, practicing all the things that Jehovah hates, did you know that what you were doing was wrong in his eyes?

Do you really know "what is wrong in His eyes"? Can any human know this? I know for myself at least that I can not. Of course I can't know for others, just wondering.
IMHO Claiming to know what God thinks equals to Blasphemy. We humans can guess at best, hence the appropriate word "my belief". Can one even define God???

Advaita teaches "God is the eternal Witness", I found it amazing to see the resemblence with "Jehova Witness"
That leaves the question who interprets the words "Jehova Witness" correctly " JWs or Advaita?". Jesus advises "Do not judge", giving a good clue IMO
Advaita teaches "Witness means not talking/judging". JWs teach "Witness means talking/judging" (e.g. vile things + JWs did judge me personally quite a bit).

You bite the hand that fed you and expect that denigrating Christ's brothers is something that God will somehow forgive.....sorry, it doesn't work that way. Whatever we do to Christ's brothers, we do to him.

Below is my personal experience recently [JW have been denigrating to me and my brothers saying our religion is inferior to JW belief]:
Jehova Witnesses came at my door. I said "Okay until you judge". After 13 sessions they started judging/denigrating my Guru and others. So I asked them to leave and return when they don't judge. They returned. Still judging and even "placed their foot in my door", not taking no for an answer. Not all JWs do this, but still it happens.

What you accuse us of doing is what you do yourself.

So if someone is not too positive about JW, you can't blame it on that person. JW are the ones who made a mistake first. What you accuse others of is what you do also.
[I don't judge JWs. But my experience is that quite a few JWs do judge. So naturally other people accuse JWs correctly. Their teaching seem to instruct them to do this]

My Guru says "Who ever judges God's Creation judges Him". My Guru only clarifies the statement Jesus made "do NOT judge" taking all confusion out
[So my sadhana is to not judge any religion. All are God's children. A good father Loves Unconditional IMO. Does not prefer JWs more than homosexuals]

You said: You bite the hand that fed you and expect that denigrating Christ's brothers is something that God will somehow forgive.....sorry, it doesn't work that way. "Whatever we do to Christ's brothers, we do to him"
Your words say that you see yourself as "Christ's brothers". Can we be Christ's brothers as long as we still judge others? [e.g. my religion is superior, others' religion is inferior]
Even the sentence itself implies judgment in my feeling. Who is NOT "Christ's brother" if ALL are Children of God. Also practicing homosexuals are Christ's brothers

 

[stvdv]

What I think is needed?
I think, humility.
For example, think of someone who likes to wear minis... a female of course.
She starts learning of God's ways, and think it's good, but insist on wearing her minis. Has she made up her mind... seriously? No. Her pride hinders her.

It's the same with other lifestyles and habits.
A person may decide they want to serve God, but they want to do so on their terms. For example, they may like to cuss, and so since they know they can't ask God for five minutes to cuss out with someone, they prefer to not take that step - which I think is fair, but does it not indicate that they are not really ready to serve God?

Thankfully, there is no sitting on the fence. We are either in, or we are out.
@RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha, I believe you know what the scriptures say about the heart. Jeremiah 17:9
If we let it decieve us, we will continue to make excuses not to follow, or to find fault with what we can see is good - not perfect - but good.

I believe you know within yourself who is obeying Jesus, but there is a fierce fight going on there.
I truly hope you win. To lose would be disastrous for you.

Agreed, humility is a winner and pride not so much

Ready to serve God 24/7. I am still not ready.

I started vegan Genesis diet 30 years ago. Then my Guru told me to take Milk product, so I did.
Now my Guru told me to start Vegan again. Just when I really started enjoying the cheese and ice creams. Grrrrr
But I love my Guru, so soon I will start again.

But giving up attachment to our ego is not easy.

 

[oldbadger]

I thought I had. I wanted some feedback. For all of the petty imperfections there is an ocean of truth which I hold dear. That's reality. I don't see things through rose colored glasses. Real boats rock.

You can be their friend.
Although your opinions don't all line up exactly with the JWs, you could focus upon their trustworthiness and honesty for friendship. I don't know where you'll find such integrity elsewhere.

 

[stvdv]

For example, think of someone who likes to wear minis... a female of course.
She starts learning of God's ways, and think it's good, but insist on wearing her minis. Has she made up her mind... seriously? No. Her pride hinders her.

If it's her pride then it's good to consider this. But if she likes to wear minis and feels no guilt then nothing wrong I think.

Cougarbear: Not sure if that's a good example but I understand what you are saying. Perhaps a woman who wears a mini is signaling to an unmarried young man looking for a wife. No problem with that, is there?

No problem there. At least the man knows that he "gets a wife who loves minis", so he should not complain lateron
No problem there. Married man can practice "sense control" and don't get his monkey mind go all crazy.
No problem there. Celibates also can use "the girl in minis" as a challenge, and check if they really desire "God" or "girls in minis"

So making up the balance, this "girl in minis" is serving God in a big way. God must be very happy with "girls in minis" IMHO. And so am I.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Well, that isn't entirely accurate. i don't think @Deeje has ever read the Proclaimers book. They have examples of people who were Witnesses over the years who had disagreements. One lady who thought that the vast majority weren't going to heaven when they still taught that was the case. Another colorful character who had brought many, many people into the truth but who was known for his, shall we say, colorful language. Then of course there was the Presiding Overseer I mentioned in my discussion with Deeje, who smoked. And a woman in the local congregation who took 5 years before she could stop Christmas. I asked the Presiding Overseer if it was necessary for me to believe every detail - there are a lot of details - and he said it wasn't necessary, and in fact seemed to think that it would be unusual.

Realistically, is it likely. Like I said, there are lots of details. I think sometimes JW's on forums like these tend to be a little bit more demanding than the average JW, probably because it can get pretty heated and JW's in general tend to over exaggerate their self perceived qualities. I know personally JW's who have been in good standing for decades and they don't agree with everything about the organization. Also I've seen how JW's work to get around certain expectations. Like the husband being the head of the household. C'mon. Put that to the test. It's okay if the husband decides to delegate that responsibility to the wife, and you can bet he will just like any other married couple. She will see to that.

I've always kept in mind, I was taught these things; I never came up with them on my own. And I was more than willing to change my previous views, when I was shown how my own beliefs were contradictory (like the Resurrection vs. immortality dichotomy) or unreasonable (like the 'Earth being literally burned up' pov) in nature.

Finally, through the JW Organization, the Bible made complete sense, but I never forgot -- and never will forget -- where I learned it!

Just like those 1st-cent. Christians, they had to be humble to accept the teachings of the apostles (Acts of the Apostles 2:42), who were fishermen and other unlettered men. God's spirit can make any obedient person wise.

Take care.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I've seen you bite the hand that gave you the Bible, and condemn virtually every Christian Church on earth for over a thousand years, as being Pagan, wicked, Satanic, whore of Babylon. You continue to label the majority of Christendom as such. Perhaps you should take your own advice?


Matthew 7:5 Context
2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

@PopeADope , I've asked you a few times: when there are conflicts between countries, people killing people... do you know of any mainstream Christian religions that have refused? Or have they rather joined in?

 

[stvdv]

I thought I had. I wanted some feedback. For all of the petty imperfections there is an ocean of truth which I hold dear. That's reality. I don't see things through rose colored glasses. Real boats rock.

I'm sorry, but with your present attitude, you clearly do not belong with us.

Your constant flip-flopping is wearing thin. I am putting you on ignore from today. I've had enough.

I don't like to get involved in disputes but I'm not feeling the JW love here.

But she does confirm my many experiences I had with JWs. Arrogance blinding them. So they don't even recognize they belittle the faith of others, let alone admit and say sorry

 

[Spiderman]

@PopeADope , I've asked you a few times: when there are conflicts between countries, people killing people... do you know of any mainstream Christian religions that have refused? Or have they rather joined in?

There are pascifists who refuse to fight in any major denomination.

 

[oldbadger]

......... Arrogance blinding them. So they don't even recognize they belittle the faith of others, let alone admit and say sorry

They aren't arrogant, think of them as 'ardent'.

Unlike the JWs, there are one of two religions promoted which will smother you in flowery prose to hide the real thoughts and beliefs in their hearts. Distorted histories, misinformation and outright lies can be perceived in almost every statement made by some.

But with the JWs you get the whole picture..... that's not arrogance, but honesty.

 

[stvdv]

I make it a point not to debate them because I've never engaged in a debate with a JW that hasn't turned ugly in the end.

Good to know information. Smart decision

Just because someone is a top-notch debater doesn't mean that he has the truth

Top-notch debater easily falls in the trap being "top-notch arrogant". Arrogants blinds, so speaking untruth, thereby becoming "worst debater".

 

[stvdv]

But she does confirm my many experiences I had with JWs. Arrogance blinding them. So they don't even recognize they belittle the faith of others, let alone admit and say sorry

They aren't arrogant, think of them as 'ardent'.

Unlike the JWs, there are one of two religions promoted which will smother you in flowery prose to hide the real thoughts and beliefs in their hearts. Distorted histories, misinformation and outright lies can be perceived in almost every statement made by some.

But with the JWs you get the whole picture..... that's not arrogance, but honesty.

An "ardent" devotee of God is devoted to God, not devoted to "belittling the religion/faith of others" as JWs do a lot. I have plenty of personal experience of this

Very simple to prove. I visited once a big meeting where all 6000 Dutch members were. I asked the below question and they assured me all agree with this:

"Do you believe JW religion is superior to reach God than other religions?". The answer was YES for all 6000. That means ALL are arrogant.

Of course I am open to be proven wrong here, and I really hope I find the first JW who can honestly answer the above question with a big fat NO

Don't get me wrong here, there is nothing wrong with "being arrogant", only with "being arrogant and claiming you are not". That is all I say

 

[Earthling]

My respect for you grew from reading that post!

Not that my respect for you should matter to you, but im giving due props.

You sympathise with the organization, while at the same time point out its errors so well!

Most people are unable to have such a balanced view.

I try. To me the most important thing you can possess is fairness.