Should I Become A Jehovah's Witness?

[stvdv]

29 jul 2018 stvdv info 020 79

I believe that we will each render an account to God for ourselves. What people do matters because Jesus said "woe to the one through whom the stumbling comes"......but woe to those who allow it to give them an excuse not to serve the true God, whom we all must face when the final judgment comes.

I see many times that Evangelizing/Proselytizing leads to Atheism. Which for me is fine, because Atheism is fine. But how does this knowledge feels to you?
And what would Jesus say now, that you, as JW, drove people away from Christianity and even worse away from Jesus + GOD. Fully aware being warned by me? How to face God now?

Like I said, my reason for leaving had little to do with the behavior (I simply don't believe in gods. On subsequent attempts to join churches it all felt like lip service, despite several sermons and recommendations to 'try harder.'). And I still kept some JW friends after the event. But I also lost some. And became warrier of kingdom halls and especially elders and pioneers who consistently made, in my opinion, the wrong decisions regarding some very toxic behavior. The friends I kept, unsurprisingly, were the most liberal of the bunch. And I doubt that will ever change.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. Good to hear from an insider. I only had like maybe 15 JW meetings. They were to exclusive for me. Although I must say that I find them inspiring "being so dedicated", and "having such a good discipline". I hope their discipline is not out of fear. I used to have a very good discipline [fasting 30-50 days on watermelon many times, praying a lot etc.etc.], but it was out of fear. And luckily my fear came down. I was not so happy my discipline came down also. It was "unreal", based on what I call "Ego WillPower". So now I had to start over cultivating a "real discipline" based on "Love WillPower".

Thanks for the other examples below as well.

I talked a bit about it here: https://www.religiousforums.com/thr...a-jehovahs-witness.211006/page-7#post-5717654 but the cliffsnotes the son fled from the church and family because discussing divorce even to a psychologically and physically abusive spouse was looked down on by family and congregation, and they lied to their non-JW daughter because they were afraid she would 'tempt him away' and let her believe he was missing.
I ran into several occasions where neglect and abuse were dusted under the rug. I don't imagine the actual cases of abuse were higher than the norm, just that they exist and nobody in my experience talks about it. Especially not with outsiders to the faith.

Yeah this is the same sort of apologetics I heard after the internalized abuse coverups in the Catholic church, too. Anyone who didn't go to the police must be lying, because that's how insular communities with abuse work, right? https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...ccused-of-silencing-victims-of-child-abuse-uk The son was even told to not go to a marriage counselor outside the faith, they didn't even rate it as a police worthy problem, just talk to the elders about it.
I saw non-JW family members being disowned, disavowed, cast into homelessness. Literally a disabled woman I knew evicted by family because she came out as practicing homosexual. Granted, this was in the early 90's. Belittled and scorned. My congregation constantly tried to drive a wedge between me and my non-believing parents even though they were super supportive but uninterested in converting. All non-believing spouses were treated as a burden to endure. You look at some of the people I knew and see the carefully crafted external visage they put on to maximize converts, but behind closed doors there are a lot of problems that you're not supposed to know about.
The 'they seem like nice people' thing everyone says about the neighbors who turned out to have bodies buried beneath the house. Not equivocating, just using a turn of phrase
Although there has been lawsuits from denying blood transfusions to minors who ended up dying, but hey, that was not one of my personal experiences.
Anyway, I still have JW friends, the most liberal sort. But I dont trust the Watchtower organization. Too authoritarian and too isolationist.

 

[Deeje]

It all sounds so sordid and ugly @ADigitalArtist .....funny how I have never experienced anything like that in 45 years as a Witness, and in quite a few different congregations. What sort of people are you breeding over there?

There is no doubt that in any organisation of imperfect individuals, that some are going to mess up.....but is it any more that what the Bible says has happened among God's people all through history? You really think we have to be perfect? Jesus came and gave his life because we weren't. We all have the same rules to live by and you can soon see who is living up to them and who isn't. You think God doesn't notice? Our elders are not the police. If there is a serious problem, then the proper authorities should be notified.

And the second-hand, one sided-stories never stop, do they?

Without knowing the details, the disabled woman tossed out because she was a practicing homosexual?.....you honestly expect a Christian family to just accept her lifestyle whilst living under their roof. You think she didn't know and expect that response? Disabled people can live quite independently these days. She had a choice and she made it....they had a choice and they made it too apparently. I'm sure her gay friends will look after her......
No adult child of mine would do that to me either. If it was their choice to live that lifestyle...they would not be living it under my roof. They know the rules.

The ones who need correcting will be corrected, believe me. Whether by the elders or by Jesus at the judgment....nobody gets away with anything because nothing is hidden from God.

You describe your JW "friends" as "liberal"?....from the attitude you display here, if they know that you feel that way, then I believe that it's more correct to call them "weak". We would not normally seek close friendship with someone like yourself. The negativity would be suffocating....not to mention faith destroying.

And as for driving wedges between you and your parents.....seriously that is a joke! We are never encouraged to do anything like that. The last thing we want to do is alienate people from their family members. But sometimes out of ignorance or misinformation, families can alienate themselves from us. There are always two sides to every story.

I was married to an unbeliever for most of my life. He was very opposed at first, but once he got to know them, he came to respect the Witnesses because of their honesty and integrity, even though he was never a spiritual person. No one tried to drive any wedges, they just accepted him as he was. When he died they all came to his funeral and grieved with us.

I don't understand how someone can be so poisoned in their thinking. Are you incapable of seeing any good in people? Or is it that you judge without thought that perhaps you may be judged the same way?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

It all sounds so sordid and ugly @ADigitalArtist .....funny how I have never experienced anything like that in 45 years as a Witness, and in quite a few different congregations. What sort of people are you breeding over there?

There is no doubt that in any organisation of imperfect individuals, that some are going to mess up.....but is it any more that what the Bible says has happened among God's people all through history? You really think we have to be perfect? Jesus came and gave his life because we weren't. We all have the same rules to live by and you can soon see who is living up to them and who isn't. You think God doesn't notice? Our elders are not the police. If there is a serious problem, then the proper authorities should be notified.

And the second-hand, one sided-stories never stop, do they?

Without knowing the details, the disabled woman tossed out because she was a practicing homosexual?.....you honestly expect a Christian family to just accept her lifestyle whilst living under their roof. You think she didn't know and expect that response? Disabled people can live quite independently these days. She had a choice and she made it....they had a choice and they made it too apparently. I'm sure her gay friends will look after her......
No adult child of mine would do that to me either. If it was their choice to live that lifestyle...they would not be living it under my roof. They know the rules.

The ones who need correcting will be corrected, believe me. Whether by the elders or by Jesus at the judgment....nobody gets away with anything because nothing is hidden from God.

You describe your JW "friends" as "liberal"?....from the attitude you display here, if they know that you feel that way, then I believe that it's more correct to call them "weak". We would not normally seek close friendship with someone like yourself. The negativity would be suffocating....not to mention faith destroying.

And as for driving wedges between you and your parents.....seriously that is a joke! We are never encouraged to do anything like that. The last thing we want to do is alienate people from their family members. But sometimes out of ignorance or misinformation, families can alienate themselves from us. There are always two sides to every story.

I was married to an unbeliever for most of my life. He was very opposed at first, but once he got to know them, he came to respect the Witnesses because of their honesty and integrity, even though he was never a spiritual person. No one tried to drive any wedges, they just accepted him as he was. When he died they all came to his funeral and grieved with us.

I don't understand how someone can be so poisoned in their thinking. Are you incapable of seeing any good in people? Or is it that you judge without thought that perhaps you may be judged the same way?

You just got through judging a whole bunch of people, myself included as well as pretty much all the people I mentioned, then condemned me for judging. I have no interest in explaining to someone why I have negative experience who automatically either minimizes it, excuses it or writes it off as fabrication.
Thanks but no thanks.

Besides, as I've already said, this is a discussion subforum and not a debate subforum. Not the place or the time even if I were so inclined.

 

[Deeje]

I see many times that Evangelizing/Proselytizing leads to Atheism. Which for me is fine, because Atheism is fine. But how does this knowledge feels to you?

The Christian message is meant to divide people, as Jesus said.
At the judgment, Jesus has only two kinds of people to choose between..."sheep and goats".....preaching gives people an opportunity to make a choice. Atheism is one of those choices.
People are free to make whatever choice their heart desires. That includes you....and me.

And what would Jesus say now, that you, as JW, drove people away from Christianity and even worse away from Jesus + GOD. Fully aware being warned by me? How to face God now?

LOL...... I'm sorry but are you speaking for God now? You feel the need to warn me? But of course you would never judge anyone???

Have I driven people away from Christianity and from Jesus and from God? Or have I merely told the truth as I understand it?
Haven't you told the truth as you understand it? What do you think Internet forums are for?

I will face my God any time he is ready....what about you?

 

[SomeRandom]

It all sounds so sordid and ugly @ADigitalArtist .....funny how I have never experienced anything like that in 45 years as a Witness, and in quite a few different congregations. What sort of people are you breeding over there?

There is no doubt that in any organisation of imperfect individuals, that some are going to mess up.....but is it any more that what the Bible says has happened among God's people all through history? You really think we have to be perfect? Jesus came and gave his life because we weren't. We all have the same rules to live by and you can soon see who is living up to them and who isn't. You think God doesn't notice? Our elders are not the police. If there is a serious problem, then the proper authorities should be notified.

And the second-hand, one sided-stories never stop, do they?

Without knowing the details, the disabled woman tossed out because she was a practicing homosexual?.....you honestly expect a Christian family to just accept her lifestyle whilst living under their roof. You think she didn't know and expect that response? Disabled people can live quite independently these days. She had a choice and she made it....they had a choice and they made it too apparently. I'm sure her gay friends will look after her......
No adult child of mine would do that to me either. If it was their choice to live that lifestyle...they would not be living it under my roof. They know the rules.

The ones who need correcting will be corrected, believe me. Whether by the elders or by Jesus at the judgment....nobody gets away with anything because nothing is hidden from God.

You describe your JW "friends" as "liberal"?....from the attitude you display here, if they know that you feel that way, then I believe that it's more correct to call them "weak". We would not normally seek close friendship with someone like yourself. The negativity would be suffocating....not to mention faith destroying.

And as for driving wedges between you and your parents.....seriously that is a joke! We are never encouraged to do anything like that. The last thing we want to do is alienate people from their family members. But sometimes out of ignorance or misinformation, families can alienate themselves from us. There are always two sides to every story.

I was married to an unbeliever for most of my life. He was very opposed at first, but once he got to know them, he came to respect the Witnesses because of their honesty and integrity, even though he was never a spiritual person. No one tried to drive any wedges, they just accepted him as he was. When he died they all came to his funeral and grieved with us.

I don't understand how someone can be so poisoned in their thinking. Are you incapable of seeing any good in people? Or is it that you judge without thought that perhaps you may be judged the same way?

Did......did you actually just dismiss the practice of tossing out a disabled woman into the world without support just because she's gay?
That's colder than the literal snow queen, damn bro.

 

[Deeje]

Did......did you actually just dismiss the practice of tossing out a disabled woman into the world without support just because she's gay?
That's colder than the literal snow queen, damn bro.

If you are going to call yourself a Christian, you don't get to pick and choose between God's directives. We obey all of them, even the tough ones. We also expect that our children will obey them too. Raised with Christian standards does not allow immorality to be practiced whilst living at home. If a child chooses to live an immoral lifestyle, regardless of gender, they will be asked to leave. If they are old enough to make that choice, then they are old enough to support it.

If they are able bodied enough to practice homosexuality, then they are able bodied enough to support their lifestyle.

Its a choice made with a full understanding of the consequences. Its not like it was an unexpected response. She made a choice and apparently, so did her parents. It doesn't sound like she was young. Nor does it say what sort of disability she had. It would have been a very hard decision on the part of the parents.

But its about choices, all of which have consequences.

 

[SomeRandom]

If you are going to call yourself a Christian, you don't get to pick and choose between God's directives. We obey all of them, even the tough ones. We also expect that our children will obey them too. Raised with Christian standards does not allow immorality to be practiced whilst living at home. If a child chooses to live an immoral lifestyle, regardless of gender, they will be asked to leave. If they are old enough to make that choice, then they are old enough to support it.

If they are able bodied enough to practice homosexuality, then they are able bodied enough to support their lifestyle.

Its a choice made with a full understanding of the consequences. Its not like it was an unexpected response. She made a choice and apparently, so did her parents. It doesn't sound like she was young. Nor does it say what sort of disability she had. It would have been a very hard decision on the part of the parents.

But its about choices, all of which have consequences.

Yeah so Jesus never hung out with sinners, amirite?
And I'm a little unfamiliar with how the golden rule turns into literally disowning your family.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

It all sounds so sordid and ugly @ADigitalArtist .....funny how I have never experienced anything like that in 45 years as a Witness, and in quite a few different congregations. What sort of people are you breeding over there?

There is no doubt that in any organisation of imperfect individuals, that some are going to mess up.....but is it any more that what the Bible says has happened among God's people all through history? You really think we have to be perfect? Jesus came and gave his life because we weren't. We all have the same rules to live by and you can soon see who is living up to them and who isn't. You think God doesn't notice? Our elders are not the police. If there is a serious problem, then the proper authorities should be notified.

And the second-hand, one sided-stories never stop, do they?

Without knowing the details, the disabled woman tossed out because she was a practicing homosexual?.....you honestly expect a Christian family to just accept her lifestyle whilst living under their roof. You think she didn't know and expect that response? Disabled people can live quite independently these days. She had a choice and she made it....they had a choice and they made it too apparently. I'm sure her gay friends will look after her......
No adult child of mine would do that to me either. If it was their choice to live that lifestyle...they would not be living it under my roof. They know the rules.

The ones who need correcting will be corrected, believe me. Whether by the elders or by Jesus at the judgment....nobody gets away with anything because nothing is hidden from God.

You describe your JW "friends" as "liberal"?....from the attitude you display here, if they know that you feel that way, then I believe that it's more correct to call them "weak". We would not normally seek close friendship with someone like yourself. The negativity would be suffocating....not to mention faith destroying.

And as for driving wedges between you and your parents.....seriously that is a joke! We are never encouraged to do anything like that. The last thing we want to do is alienate people from their family members. But sometimes out of ignorance or misinformation, families can alienate themselves from us. There are always two sides to every story.

I was married to an unbeliever for most of my life. He was very opposed at first, but once he got to know them, he came to respect the Witnesses because of their honesty and integrity, even though he was never a spiritual person. No one tried to drive any wedges, they just accepted him as he was. When he died they all came to his funeral and grieved with us.

I don't understand how someone can be so poisoned in their thinking. Are you incapable of seeing any good in people? Or is it that you judge without thought that perhaps you may be judged the same way?

If you are going to call yourself a Christian, you don't get to pick and choose between God's directives. We obey all of them, even the tough ones. We also expect that our children will obey them too. Raised with Christian standards does not allow immorality to be practiced whilst living at home. If a child chooses to live an immoral lifestyle, regardless of gender, they will be asked to leave. If they are old enough to make that choice, then they are old enough to support it.

If they are able bodied enough to practice homosexuality, then they are able bodied enough to support their lifestyle.

Its a choice made with a full understanding of the consequences. Its not like it was an unexpected response. She made a choice and apparently, so did her parents. It doesn't sound like she was young. Nor does it say what sort of disability she had. It would have been a very hard decision on the part of the parents.

But its about choices, all of which have consequences.

It's posts like these that demonstrate just how toxic the Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs are.

@RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha , I wouldn't dream of telling you whether or not you should join the JWs. All I will say is I hope you consider the posts I've quoted above as well as the attitudes they demonstrate if you're still weighing your options.

 

[stvdv]

29 jul 2018 info 020 87
@Deeje: I have the feeling you mean well. So it must be a "miscommunication". I hope I explain it clear this time.

Just do not state "your belief" as "a fact" [Then I won't need to defend]: Just add: a)I believe + b)IMHO

Just say "What `I do` matters, because Jesus said", do not say "What `people do` matters, because Jesus said".
[What people do matters because Jesus said "woe to those who allow it to give them an excuse not to serve the true God, whom we all must face when the final judgment comes]

*): If you agree with the above, then no need to read the spoiler. It only explains in detail the line above.

Spoiler: Explanation in more detail

What people do matters because Jesus said "woe to those who allow it to give them an excuse not to serve the true God, whom we all must face when the final judgment comes.

When you add "In my humble opinion" I am fine with it. , It's called "RF Rule 8". Put it in the above way equals to impose "Jesus" on "all people", which is imposing on others.

I see many times that Evangelizing/Proselytizing leads to Atheism. Which for me is fine, because Atheism is fine. But how does this knowledge feels to you?
And what would Jesus say now, that you, as JW, drove people away from Christianity and even worse away from Jesus + GOD. Fully aware being warned by me? How to face God now?

LOL...... I'm sorry but are you speaking for God now? You feel the need to warn me? But of course you would never judge anyone???

Exactly, I did not judge. You see it the wrong way. I only mirrored your own judgmental line in red above. That is your believe, but not mine. Just add IMHO

Have I driven people away from Christianity and from Jesus and from God? Or have I merely told the truth as I understand it?
Haven't you told the truth as you understand it? What do you think Internet forums are for?

Agreed. Said "in this way" feels good.

I will face my God any time he is ready....what about you?

Agreed. Said "in this way" feels good.

If JW does not state their belief as a "fact", then they could do almost anything they like, and I will not say a word.

[I also had to understand impact of RF rule 8, and stay sharp. That's why I put "IMHO" below each post of mine]
[Once I met a director of a big firm. Easily he was leading the group. He told me "I always say `I believe/think`"]

 

[oldbadger]

Yeah this is the same sort of apologetics I heard after the internalized abuse coverups in the Catholic church, too. Anyone who didn't go to the police must be lying, because that's how insular communities with abuse work, right?

No, it's simply showing that you don't have any hard facts to present. Some of us posted on behalf of the JWs when a thread on RF about severe JW hardships in Russia got 'invaded' by members who took the opportunity to throw muck at them over a Royal Commission hearing with recommendations in Oz, so I have knowledge about some of the allegations......... thin as Scotch-Mist, mostly
.

The son was even told to not go to a marriage counselor outside the faith, they didn't even rate it as a police worthy problem, just talk to the elders about it.

The son appears to have been a fully grown man!

I saw non-JW family members being disowned, disavowed, cast into homelessness. Literally a disabled woman I knew evicted by family because she came out as practicing homosexual. Granted, this was in the early 90's. Belittled and scorned. My congregation constantly tried to drive a wedge between me and my non-believing parents even though they were super supportive but uninterested in converting. All non-believing spouses were treated as a burden to endure. You look at some of the people I knew and see the carefully crafted external visage they put on to maximize converts, but behind closed doors there are a lot of problems that you're not supposed to know about.

No abuse...... nothing to show.

The 'they seem like nice people' thing everyone says about the neighbors who turned out to have bodies buried beneath the house. Not equivocating, just using a turn of phrase

Horrible analogy.

Although there has been lawsuits from denying blood transfusions to minors who ended up dying, but hey, that was not one of my personal experiences.

Please quote any Court Judgements or Coroner's findings.

Anyway, I still have JW friends, the most liberal sort. But I dont trust the Watchtower organization. Too authoritarian and too isolationist.

Well you left it! You didn't like it so you left it!

 

[ADigitalArtist]

No, it's simply showing that you don't have any hard facts to present. Some of us posted on behalf of the JWs when a thread on RF about severe JW hardships in Russia got 'invaded' by members who took the opportunity to throw muck at them over a Royal Commission hearing with recommendations in Oz, so I have knowledge about some of the allegations......... thin as Scotch-Mist, mostly
.

The son appears to have been a fully grown man!


No abuse...... nothing to show.


Horrible analogy.


Please quote any Court Judgements or Coroner's findings.


Well you left it! You didn't like it so you left it!

Sounds like you won't believe anything presented out of preconception, the least of which including personal experience, which I have no more reason to believe anything that happened in your experience was real than you than you do of me. (Including my experience as a victim of child molestation since he never left physical markings and I was too scared to to go to the police as a kid)

But I'm not here to argue with you about it, least of all in a discussion forum. Bye then.

 

[oldbadger]

Sounds like you won't believe anything presented out of preconception, the least of which including personal experience, which I have no more reason to believe anything that happened in your experience was real than you than you do of me. (Including my experience as a victim of child molestation since he never left physical markings and I was too scared to to go to the police as a kid)

But I'm not here to argue with you about it, least of all in a discussion forum. Bye then.

OK then......... Bye

 

[Deeje]

Yeah so Jesus never hung out with sinners, amirite?
And I'm a little unfamiliar with how the golden rule turns into literally disowning your family.

No, actually, you are not 'right'. Jesus "hung out with sinners" to teach them to abandon their immoral lifestyle and to embrace the clean life of a worshipper of the true God, not because he approved of their activities.

The Golden Rule applies where it applies, but it does not negate the rest of scripture.

If you recall, the first act of kicking out rebellious humans occurred in Eden. This was God evicting his children because they violated his explicit command. The second occurred when Cain killed his brother and was evicted from further contact with his family. And we haven't even left the early chapters of Genesis.

Numbers 15:30-31 also states what is to be done with those who deliberately break God's laws.

"‘But the person who does something deliberately, whether he is native-born or a foreign resident, is blaspheming Jehovah and must be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised Jehovah’s word and broken his commandment, that person should be cut off without fail. His own error is upon him.’”

That applied when there was deliberate disobedience and a despising of God's word. We don't get to choose what laws to obey and which ones to conveniently ignore just because it might be a family member who is the culprit.

For us as Christians, we have this admonition....

"In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.” (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

For those who do not subscribe to Christianity, there is no law governing their activities, or those of family members...they can live as immorally as they choose. But we have rules that do not permit this and our children are well aware of them.

If you know the penalty before you commit the deed, how can you complain when it is implemented?

 

[SomeRandom]

No, actually, you are not 'right'. Jesus "hung out with sinners" to teach them to abandon their immoral lifestyle and to embrace the clean life of a worshipper of the true God, not because he approved of their activities.

The Golden Rule applies where it applies, but it does not negate the rest of scripture.

If you recall, the first act of kicking out rebellious humans occurred in Eden. This was God evicting his children because they violated his explicit command. The second occurred when Cain killed his brother and was evicted from further contact with his family. And we haven't even left the early chapters of Genesis.

Numbers 15:30-31 also states what is to be done with those who deliberately break God's laws.

"‘But the person who does something deliberately, whether he is native-born or a foreign resident, is blaspheming Jehovah and must be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised Jehovah’s word and broken his commandment, that person should be cut off without fail. His own error is upon him.’”

That applied when there was deliberate disobedience and a despising of God's word. We don't get to choose what laws to obey and which ones to conveniently ignore just because it might be a family member who is the culprit.

For us as Christians, we have this admonition....

"In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.” (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

For those who do not subscribe to Christianity, there is no law governing their activities, or those of family members...they can live as immorally as they choose. But we have rules that do not permit this and our children are well aware of them.

If you know the penalty before you commit the deed, how can you complain when it is implemented?

Isn't that all Old Testament though?
And did Jesus, the one you're supposedly emulating here on earth, did He ever kick someone out for sinning?
I seem to recall far more forgiving on His part. Even Judas, correct me if I'm wrong, received more forgiveness than rebuke.

I suppose you are emulating the OT God, but how much Jesus? I mean you're supposed to be Christ like, right?

 

[Katzpur]

Somehow, to me, not believing something you once did or interpreting the scriptures differently from how you once did does not mean you are "wicked." But then, I'm not a JW, so what would I know?

 

[Deeje]

Isn't that all Old Testament though?

There is no such thing as OLD testament. Jesus used the Hebrew scriptures and advocated what they taught. He quoted from them often.

Paul's letter to Timothy said that "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17) The only scripture they had back then was the OT.

And did Jesus, the one you're supposedly emulating here on earth, did He ever kick someone out for sinning?
I seem to recall far more forgiving on His part. Even Judas, correct me if I'm wrong, received more forgiveness than rebuke.

Judas? He committed the unforgivable sin and he knew it. The course that Judas chose was a deliberate one, involving malice, greed, pride, hypocrisy, and scheming. He was not forgiven but committed suicide because he realized the magnitude of what he had done.

I suppose you are emulating the OT God, but how much Jesus? I mean you're supposed to be Christ like, right?

Jesus was the perfect reflection of his Father and taught his apostles to promote his teachings after his death.

He will come as judge and executioner according to scripture, and all living will see him as a victorious King conquering the enemies of his God.

"This is a proof of the righteous judgment of God, leading to your being counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which you are indeed suffering.
6 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength". (2 Thessalonians 1:5-9)

That is also "Christ-like".
"Vengeance" will be expressed upon those who "don't know God" because they don't want to....and those who know him but "do not obey" him. This is what the Bible says. People are free to heed what it says, or ignore it.

 

[Deeje]

29 jul 2018 info 020 87
@Deeje: I have the feeling you mean well.

Well thank you for that much.

So it must be a "miscommunication". I hope I explain it clear this time.

I am getting the feeling from your phraseology that English is not your first language...is that correct?
Could there be some miscommunication on that level do you think? Are you reading into my words more than I am writing perhaps?

Just do not state "your belief" as "a fact" [Then I won't need to defend]: Just add: a)I believe + b)IMHO

Just say "What `I do` matters, because Jesus said", do not say "What `people do` matters, because Jesus said".
[What people do matters because Jesus said "woe to those who allow it to give them an excuse not to serve the true God, whom we all must face when the final judgment comes]

*): If you agree with the above, then no need to read the spoiler. It only explains in detail the line above.

When you add "In my humble opinion" I am fine with it. , It's called "RF Rule 8". Put it in the above way equals to impose "Jesus" on "all people", which is imposing on others.

Agreed. Said "in this way" feels good.


Agreed. Said "in this way" feels good.

If JW does not state their belief as a "fact", then they could do almost anything they like, and I will not say a word.

[I also had to understand impact of RF rule 8, and stay sharp. That's why I put "IMHO" below each post of mine]
[Once I met a director of a big firm. Easily he was leading the group. He told me "I always say `I believe/think`"

So....."its not what I say, its the way that I say it"? Is that what you are telling me? Is it about being pedantic about semantics even?

I am Australian and if you know anything about Aussies, its that we speak what is on our minds without a great deal of thought about tip-toeing around people's sensitivities and feelings. Its a fault I know, but we like to get to the point without a lot of unnecessary PC. Someone once said...."Feelings are wonderful friends...but terrible masters". True that.

Let me therefore just put this disclaimer on whatever I post...it is the truth as I understand it....OK? Let it be noted that whatever I post is my opinion....and I assume that whatever other people post is theirs too. I didn't think I needed to state the obvious.

I do not mean to offend anyone but at the same time, I try always to speak the truth. Sometimes that truth is inconvenient or taken the wrong way.

I hope I don't have to explain further.....because I think you mean well too, but it doesn't always come across that way either.
Truce?

 

[stvdv]

30 jul 2018 info 020 91

Well thank you for that much.

I am getting the feeling from your phraseology that English is not your first language...is that correct?
Could there be some miscommunication on that level do you think? Are you reading into my words more than I am writing perhaps?

So....."its not what I say, its the way that I say it"? Is that what you are telling me? Is it about being pedantic about semantics even?

I am Australian and if you know anything about Aussies, its that we speak what is on our minds without a great deal of thought about tip-toeing around people's sensitivities and feelings. Its a fault I know, but we like to get to the point without a lot of unnecessary PC. Someone once said...."Feelings are wonderful friends...but terrible masters". True that.

Let me therefore just put this disclaimer on whatever I post...it is the truth as I understand it....OK? Let it be noted that whatever I post is my opinion....and I assume that whatever other people post is theirs too. I didn't think I needed to state the obvious.

I do not mean to offend anyone but at the same time, I try always to speak the truth. Sometimes that truth is inconvenient or taken the wrong way.

I hope I don't have to explain further.....because I think you mean well too, but it doesn't always come across that way either.
Truce?

Correct, english is not my first language. With your above explanation it is obvious I read too much into your words. "we all" is not a fact, so Atheist etc. are excluded
"woe to those who allow it to give them an excuse not to serve the true God, whom we all must face when the final judgment comes."

The confusion came because 95+% of the Christians I met, told me "Jesus is the only way for all humans". When I asked them "In your opinion"? They replied "No that's a fact for all".
So I was quite biased by these Christians. Glad to read that you don't think that way.

[maybe I took it too literal: a)being biased + b)reading RF rule 8: ~Stating opinions as a definitive matter of fact (i.e., without "I believe/feel/think" language, and/or without references) may be moderated as preaching~]

May All Be Blessed
Truce, much better. Fighting over God I rather also avoid

 

[SomeRandom]

There is no such thing as OLD testament. Jesus used the Hebrew scriptures and advocated what they taught. He quoted from them often.

Paul's letter to Timothy said that "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17) The only scripture they had back then was the OT.



Judas? He committed the unforgivable sin and he knew it. The course that Judas chose was a deliberate one, involving malice, greed, pride, hypocrisy, and scheming. He was not forgiven but committed suicide because he realized the magnitude of what he had done.



Jesus was the perfect reflection of his Father and taught his apostles to promote his teachings after his death.

He will come as judge and executioner according to scripture, and all living will see him as a victorious King conquering the enemies of his God.

"This is a proof of the righteous judgment of God, leading to your being counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which you are indeed suffering.
6 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength". (2 Thessalonians 1:5-9)

That is also "Christ-like".
"Vengeance" will be expressed upon those who "don't know God" because they don't want to....and those who know him but "do not obey" him. This is what the Bible says. People are free to heed what it says, or ignore it.

Meh, I prefer the Jesus from Sunday School. Far less anger issues.

 

[Deeje]

Meh, I prefer the Jesus from Sunday School. Far less anger issues.

And that is your choice. The "Gentle Jesus" figure of the church is a myth. He was "mild tempered and lowly in heart" but not the 'mamby-pamby' all forgiving sop that he is made out to be. He could not be an appointed judge and executioner if he was weak and failed to implement God's justice.

The forgiveness he offered was conditional and had to be warranted by genuine repentance and obedience to Christ's teachings....something most people find way too difficult. (Matthew 7:13-14)