Should I Put This On RF?

[LuisDantas]

As a rule, it is a good thing to speak one's mind as long as there is the proper acceptance of responsability for what is said.

In this case, I would think that the most significant context to remember is that this is the writer's judgement, easily expressed and just as easily dismissed - unless he wants to elaborate and offer sources and arguments to sustain his statements.

What could be dangerous is taking his statements as implicitly true and unquestionable. It is good practice to seek the main objections and criticism to any ideas and see how much water they may hold.

It does not follow that there will always be any significant equality of validity, mind you. Quite on the contrary even.

 

[Rival]

Speak fir yourself.

Did you just call me a plant??

How dare you assume my genus.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Yeah, what's the worst that could hap--

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@Augustus @RestlessSoul @exchemist​

Strange! I hold my threads down with my hand like this too when they start going in all directions and falling apart.

 

[Secret Chief]

I suppose, though, that any revolution is likely cause enough upheaval to make “culture stagnate” for a while. Things tend to go backwards for a bit.

It also invites the question of what is the measure of culture being used here. Quite a lot of cultural artifacts from that period might have been religious in nature……

Possibly why the period after the withdrawal of the Roman occupiers from these fair isles is (typically) described as the Dark Ages.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I not long ago read Tom Holland's 'Millennium', which like most of Holland's books, is presented not as academic history, but rather as a readable narrative which is well researched, referenced, and supported by evidence. The passage in the OP chimes with that narrative, but as I say, Holland is more of a story teller than an academic; I'd expect academic historians to be more circumspect, but maybe not in the 1970's.

I still remember reading '1066 And All That' and finding it accurately parodied the way I was taught history at school in the 60's and 70's.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Possibly why the period after the withdrawal of the Roman occupiers from these fair isles is (typically) described as the Dark Ages.

So called I believe, because there was very little literacy, outside of monasteries. And hence little in the way of written records, to cast light on the events of the period

 

[Nakosis]

Yeah, what's the worst that could hap--

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@Augustus @RestlessSoul @exchemist​

It seems to assume that the author knew what culture ought to be. I'd think the pagans would go about developing their own culture without the church just not in the direction the author thought it should.

You seem to be becoming more esoteric these days Rival. Perhaps reading too much.

 

[Heyo]

Yeah, what's the worst that could hap--

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@Augustus @RestlessSoul @exchemist​

What do you think is controversial? The Slaves at that time weren't the pinnacle of culture - and neither were the Germans. After the fall of (west) Rome, most of Europe went through a centuries long phase of barbarism with loss of commerce, craftsmanship, literacy and inventions. Otto II. brought a shimmer of culture into the north by marrying Theophanu of East Rome (Greece) which had not lost all culture.

 

[Secret Chief]

So called I believe, because there was very little literacy, outside of monasteries. And hence little in the way of written records, to cast light on the events of the period

Yes, just "dark" to a written world. Likewise, the time/region of the Buddha.

 

[Rival]

What do you think is controversial? The Slaves at that time weren't the pinnacle of culture - and neither were the Germans. After the fall of (west) Rome, most of Europe went through a centuries long phase of barbarism with loss of commerce, craftsmanship, literacy and inventions. Otto II. brought a shimmer of culture into the north by marrying Theophanu of East Rome (Greece) which had not lost all culture.

The implied idea, as some might see it, that Pagans = culturally backwards.

 

[Heyo]

The implied idea, as some might see it, that Pagans = culturally backwards.

Yeah - no. The Slavs happened to be pagans. A thousand years prior the pagans were the ones with the culture, well the Romans happened to be pagans.

 

[exchemist]

I not long ago read Tom Holland's 'Millennium', which like most of Holland's books, is presented not as academic history, but rather as a readable narrative which is well researched, referenced, and supported by evidence. The passage in the OP chimes with that narrative, but as I say, Holland is more of a story teller than an academic; I'd expect academic historians to be more circumspect, but maybe not in the 1970's.

I still remember reading '1066 And All That' and finding it accurately parodied the way I was taught history at school in the 60's and 70's.

Yes the Venomous Bede, Halfacanute and Partlicanute etc. Very funny.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Yes the Venomous Bede, Halfacanute and Partlicanute etc. Very funny.

I’d forgotten about the Venemous Bede

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah, what's the worst that could hap--

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@Augustus @RestlessSoul @exchemist​

It's just someone's opinion about cause & effect.
I bet paganism has a positive influence.

 

[exchemist]

I’d forgotten about the Venemous Bede

BEOLEOPARD, or The Witan's Whail

Whan Cnut Cyng the Witan wold enfeoff
Of infangthief and outfangthief
Wonderlich were they enwraged
And worldwar waged.
Sware Cnut great scot and lot
Swingë wold ich this illbegotten lot.

Worth was Cnut and wrothword spake
Well wold he win at wopantake
Fain wold he brakë frith and crackë heads
And than they shold worshippe his redes

Swingéd Cnut Cyng with swung sword
Howléd Witanë hellë but hearkened his word
Murië sang Cnut Cyng
Outfangthief is Damgudthyng.


Also Gregory the Great's famous [apocryphal] "Non Angli sed Angeli" is translated as "Not Angels but Anglicans".......etc......

 

[RestlessSoul]

BEOLEOPARD, or The Witan's Whail

Whan Cnut Cyng the Witan wold enfeoff
Of infangthief and outfangthief
Wonderlich were they enwraged
And worldwar waged.
Sware Cnut great scot and lot
Swingë wold ich this illbegotten lot.

Worth was Cnut and wrothword spake
Well wold he win at wopantake
Fain wold he brakë frith and crackë heads
And than they shold worshippe his redes

Swingéd Cnut Cyng with swung sword
Howléd Witanë hellë but hearkened his word
Murië sang Cnut Cyng
Outfangthief is Damgudthyng.


Also Gregory the Great's famous [apocryphal] "Non Angli sed Angeli" is translated as "Not Angels but Anglicans".......etc......

Not entirely sure that wasn’t from Beowulf or something similar. Damgudthyng gave it away though

 

[exchemist]

Not entirely sure that wasn’t from Beowulf or something similar. Damgudthyng gave it away though

What about "Sware Cnut great scot and lot" ?

Seems infangthief was a real term and outfangthief may have been, or may have been made up: Infangthief and outfangthief - Wikipedia

 

[viole]

The implied idea, as some might see it, that Pagans = culturally backwards.

Yes, like in ancient Greece and Rome.

CIao

- viole

 

[exchemist]

Yes, like in ancient Greece and Rome.

CIao

- viole

No. Not like Greece or Rome. Read the context. This was Western Slav paganism in the c.10th.

Ciao.

 

[viole]

No. Not like Greece or Rome. Read the context. This was Western Slav paganism in the c.10th.

Ciao.

Could be, but for sure it defeats the claim that paganism entails cultural stagnation.

Ciao

- viole