Should I Put This On RF?

[Rival]

Could be, but for sure it defeats the claim that paganism entails cultural stagnation.

Ciao

- viole

Most modern people look with horror on ancient Greece and Rome. I am continually baffled that people would idolise societies then enslaved half of their own inhabitants, didn't let women leave the house, allowed the father of the family to kill his family, own his wife as property, throw disabled children on the dung heap, stratify their societies within an inch of their lives and engage in pederasty on a mass scale.

**** those civilisations. That is backwards.

 

[viole]

Most modern people look with horror on ancient Greece and Rome. I am continually baffled that people would idolise societies then enslaved half of their own inhabitants, didn't let women leave the house, allowed the father of the family to kill his family, own his wife as property, throw disabled children on the dung heap, stratify their societies within an inch of their lives and engage in pederasty on a mass scale.

**** those civilisations. That is backwards.

Could be, but that does not entail cultural stagnation, either. You are making a moral argument that has nothing to do with philosophical, scientific, and more general cultural progress.

ciao

- viole

 

[Rival]

Could be, but that does not entail cultural stagnation, either. You are making a moral argument that has nothing to do with philosophical, scientific, and more general cultural progress.

ciao

- viole

You can have the best scientific progress in the world but if you rape teenage boys as standard practice I don't care if you can land on Mars.

Anyway, the point is that the West Slavic pagans were backwards compared to their Christian counterparts, for reasons already mentioned.

 

[viole]

You can have the best scientific progress in the world but if you rape teenage boys as standard practice I don't care if you can land on Mars.

Anyway, the point is that the West Slavic pagans were backwards compared to their Christian counterparts, for reasons already mentioned.

whether people care is not particularly useful in any rational discussion. Therefore, equally irrelevant.

The point is that the segment you posted seems to indicate the entailment: paganism ==> cultural degradation. Which is obviously a non sequitur, as I have shown. Someone could have equally written, instead, that slavs are backward people unable to think without the church, instead, with exactly the same warrant.

ciao

- viole

 

[exchemist]

Could be, but for sure it defeats the claim that paganism entails cultural stagnation.

Ciao

- viole

Oh sure. But that's not a claim anyone has made, so far as I can see. The writer said there is archaaeological evidence that this was the outcome on that particular occasion, that's all. Isn't it?

 

[viole]

Oh sure. But that's not a claim anyone has made, so far as I can see.

reading the little pat of text, I had that impression. if the OP confirms that it is not what is implied, I am out.

ciao

- viole

 

[Viker]

Yeah. The use of the "r" word. And let's blame the unchristianized pagans for not permitting decent Christianization and proper culture. I can see a little bias. I'm shocked over the "r" word being used. That author better not make me get woke! Because I'm actually too tired to be woke right now.

 

[exchemist]

Yeah. The use of the "r" word. And let's blame the unchristianized pagans for not permitting decent Christianization and proper culture. I can see a little bias. I'm shocked over the "r" word being used. That author better not make me get woke! Because I'm actually too tired to be woke right now.

And here starts the descent into internet madness: out of context remarks are taken further out of context, wilder and wilder accusations are made.......and eventually Godwin's Law kicks in.

Just read the passage in the OP. This is describing the effect of a single instance of a revolution in c.10th Europe, for which there is, according to the author, archaeological evidence. If you want to ascribe bias, you need first to debunk the evidence the author is relying on, don't you?

But what's the "r" word? "Rival?"

 

[Viker]

And here starts the descent into internet madness: out of context remarks are taken further out of context, wilder and wilder accusations are made.......and eventually Godwin's Law kicks in.

Just read the passage in the OP. This is describing the effect of a single instance of a revolution in c.10th Europe, for which there is, according to the author, archaeological evidence. If you want to ascribe bias, you need first to debunk the evidence the author is relying on, don't you?

But what's the "r" word? "Rival?"

Uh huh. That's exactly what Goebbels would say!

Yes. *ival is a new no no word.

 

[Rival]

Yeah. The use of the "r" word. And let's blame the unchristianized pagans for not permitting decent Christianization and proper culture. I can see a little bias. I'm shocked over the "r" word being used. That author better not make me get woke! Because I'm actually too tired to be woke right now.

Retard just means backwards. It's still a word used in that context.

 

[exchemist]

Retard just means backwards. It's still a word used in that context.

Oooh, is that it? Are we not to use the verb "to retard" any more? I hadn't picked that up. How ridiculous, if true.

 

[Viker]

Retard just means backwards. It's still a word used in that context.

I know. I'm just trying to find anything to debate where I actually think there is no major thing there.

The closest I can do is what evidence (I'd like to see)? And what is meant by cultural stagnation and how's it pointing to this? I'd have to read more and not just overreact.

Is it just that there is a 150 year non presence of Christian artifacts and "Christianization"? Is that what is meant? I wouldn't call that stagnation myself, just a lack of the aforementioned.

 

[exchemist]

I know. I'm just trying to find anything to debate where I actually think there is no major thing there.

The closest I can do is what evidence (I'd like to see)? And what is meant by cultural stagnation and how's it pointing to this? I'd have to read more and not just overreact.

Is it just that there is a 150 year non presence of Christian artifacts and "Christianization"? Is that what is meant? I wouldn't call that stagnation myself, just a lack of the aforementioned.

Indeed, he refers to archaeological evidence of stagnation. I too wondered if that simply meant a lack of religious artifacts, but I don't think it can. This guy is a serious authority - and a German - so I doubt he will indulge in glib statements.

 

[Polymath257]

Indeed, he refers to archaeological evidence of stagnation. I too wondered if that simply meant a lack of religious artifacts, but I don't think it can. This guy is a serious authority - and a German - so I doubt he will indulge in glib statements.

I would guess a decrease in the variety of any number of cultural items, from decoration on bowls, swords, etc to lesser elaboration on other artifacts.

 

[Rival]

@exchemist @Polymath257

'In the field of sociology, cultural capital comprises the social assets of a person (education, intellect, style of speech, style of dress, etc.) that promote social mobility in a stratified society.'

Looks like we're looking at simpler clothing, lack of crowns, lack of burial goods etc. that would indicate upward mobility, from tribal societies to socially stratified kingdoms with political/cultural institutions represented by such objects as crowns, robes, brooches etc.

 

[crossfire]

Yeah, what's the worst that could hap--

View attachment 80013

@Augustus @RestlessSoul @exchemist​

What I see here is a blatant apologist for colonialism. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Heyo]

Most modern people look with horror on ancient Greece and Rome. I am continually baffled that people would idolise societies then enslaved half of their own inhabitants, didn't let women leave the house, allowed the father of the family to kill his family, own his wife as property, throw disabled children on the dung heap, stratify their societies within an inch of their lives and engage in pederasty on a mass scale.

**** those civilisations. That is backwards.

At the time that was pretty par for the course. What was exceptional, was Roman architecture and a legal system who's core principles are still valid today. Greece had the fine arts, philosophy and mathematics - all the while being pretty immoral by modern standards.

 

[Yerda]

Yeah, what's the worst that could hap--

View attachment 80013

@Augustus @RestlessSoul @exchemist​

Is there anything further about the link between "paganism having free rein" and retarded cultural development?

I don't know anything about this topic, just passing curiousity.

 

[Harel13]

I can't believe someone would deface a book like that.

 

[Yerda]

I can't believe someone would deface a book like that.

You never highlighted a textbook?