Should incest be banned?

[nnmartin]

You also seem to be ignoring the fact that incest is actually completely normal amongst animals.

So what - many animals also eat their babies - should we do that to?

And how do you know what the mind of an incestuously produced dog is like?

 

[McBell]

How else can humans reproduce naturally without taking the Tab A and Slot B routine?

Since you have been completely unable to give a meaningful definition of what you mean by "natural"...

I will say that if you think a penis has to go into a vagina for pregnancy to occur, you are sadly mistaken.

 

[McBell]

So what - many animals also eat their babies - should we do that to?

I find it rather revealing that you are completely unable to understand the concept of "not cause harm to others".

And how do you know what the mind of an incestuously produced dog is like?

How do you?

 

[rageoftyrael]

Nnmartin has just proved that his position is essentially, in a nutshell, incest should be banned cause he thinks it is gross, and apparently the bible says it's wrong. And why do i say this? Because, again, for the third straight time, he has ignored my real question. Quit quibbling, nnmartin! Answer the fricking question! We have shown, many times throughout this thread, why not a single one of your reasons why incest is supposedly wrong, are valid. So, again, one last time. Do you have anything new to put forth as to why incest is wrong, or will you simply admit that your position is based purely on personal opinion, with no basis in any kind of logic.

 

[McBell]

Do you have anything new to put forth as to why incest is wrong, or will you simply admit that your position is based purely on personal opinion, with no basis in any kind of logic.

I predict that he will continue on as though he is completely immune to truth and facts.

 

[nnmartin]

Do you have anything new to put forth as to why incest is wrong, or will you simply admit that your position is based purely on personal opinion, with no basis in any kind of logic.

Have you read the entire thread yet?

otherwise you can't seriously expect me to repeat all the many reasons yet again as to why incest is wrong and should be banned.

come back when you've done your reading!

 

[rageoftyrael]

Okay. I'll spend the next ten minutes reading what i haven't read so far. I feel fairly confident i'll find nothing new, but you do have a point. Back in a moment.

 

[McBell]

Have you read the entire thread yet?

otherwise you can't seriously expect me to repeat all the many reasons yet again as to why incest is wrong and should be banned.

come back when you've done your reading!

You should really work on your reading comprehension skills.

He asked if you have anything NEW to present since every thing you have presented is nothing more than a rewording of the same old "it is yucky" argument.

You do know what the word "new" means, right?

(see, I can play that game too)

 

[rageoftyrael]

Eh. He's offline now. I'm seriously reading the pages, but it's gonna take longer than ten minutes, lol. Probably more like an hour. But i'm gonna do it. If i actually find an argument in here that makes any sense, i guess i'll shut up, but i personally highly doubt i will find one.

 

[nnmartin]

another factor to consider is that having unprotected incest actually causes harm in advance.

There will be a high chance of causing harm in the future baby -even before conception.

so that counts as harm in my book.

similar to a woman taking drugs or smoking during her pregnancy.

Now would you have sex with a person if you knew they had HIV - even using a condom? - I certainly wouldn't.

 

[rageoftyrael]

okay, i'm not willing to spend the next few hours reading these pages. It just took me an hour to read about ten pages. So, do me a favor, nnmartin, meet me halfway. Give me all your best arguments, that i haven't addressed. I don't need you to repeat every single one, just the ones i haven't addressed. Can you do this? I will happily address them, and then we can go from there. I doubt you have so many that it would be that hard. Oh, i'll even make it easier for you. I saw you list ten more reasons, and i'll address those. So, after i address those, then you can help me out by telling me of any i missed. after about 15, i can't imagine there would be THAT many more.

 

[rageoftyrael]

This is referring to the request for 10 more examples of why incest is wrong and what it can cause.

1. Indirect psychological problems
2. Physical abnormalities.
3. Inheritance issues
4. Other legal issues.
5. Social decay
6. Bullying
7. Embarrassment for a region/nation.
8. Sexual abuse issues
9. Most major religions condemn it.
10. It is not real love.

Get a divorce quick!

Okay, so i'm gonna answer these in the same way you listed them. Numerically. Each number will address the same number as above.

1. As i have specified, consenting incestuous sex between two adults is not a problem, even if it causes psychological issues, because, since you seem to value the law so much, it is their right to do things, even though they may cause them psychological harm.

2. It has been said repeatedly in this thread that physical abnormalities aren't necessarily automatically gonna happen first generation. Even if it did, wouldn't it be their right, as consenting adults, to have these children? Also, again, this can be avoided via contraception, birth control, sterility, and even going so far as to be "fixed" so you can't have children at all. This seems to be your major sticking point, and it simply isn't a valid argument, for so many reasons.

3. Inheritance issues? What issues would that involve? No one has said anything about brothers and sisters marrying. That isn't even part of the discussion. And if it isn't part of the discussion, then it isn't a valid argument, is it? But let's assume they could get married, and their parents died and left something to them. What of it? Legally, whoever it was left to would get it. And if they broke up, the law would deal with them as they would deal with any divorce. Not an issue.

4. Other legal issues. This shouldn't be on your list, because it doesn't say anything. I have to assume a lot to even really begin to get any meaning from it. I'll try anyway though. Let's simply say that we aren't talking about incest being illegal. Let's ignore marriage, because i imagine that marriage between brothers and sisters, fathers and daughters, etc. and so forth, if legal, would be treated the same as a marriage between unrelated people. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be. So, those out of the way, i can't even think of what legal issues you could come up with?

5. Ummm.... social decay is a huge assumption, with nothing to back it up, whatsoever. It's essentially just an opinion you've thrown onto your list, and as such, can be realistically ignored. But i won't ignore it, that would be to easy. For one, the definition of social decay in and of itself would be in debate. Some might say we are in a social decay now, some would not. So, if we can't even agree there, how could you possibly use this as an argument? Ehh... there's so many things i could say, that would essentially sum up to, "people won't agree on what social decay is" so i really can't argue with this. This is, as i said, merely your opinion.

6. I don't see how bullying would be an issue. I've stated that incestuous sex between two consensual adults is okay, not children. And how often do you actually have to deal with bullying once you are an adult? Even if it does happen, here in america, we have several laws that defend us against this issue.

7. Embarrassment for a nation/region is, like 5, simply an opinion, and as such, can not be used as a factual reason against incest. I would not be embarrassed at all if incest was legalized. To me, this would be an example of our country moving forward, and proving that it isn't beholden to outdated laws.

8. This can be ignored, because i have said, as others have said, that if any kind of sexual abuse comes into the picture, it is wrong because of the abuse, and not cause of the incest. And there is no reason to believe that incest requires this, at all. Incest could occur between to consenting adults, simply as a way to achieve pleasure, and nothing more. No sexual abuse there, hmmm?

9. These are outdated. Religions rarely change in any significant way. Society, however, does. Also, just because a religion condemns something, doesn't make it wrong. The muslim religion condemns you, simply for not believing in allah. Does that make your existence wrong? This is also an argument from authority/majority, and as such is a fallacy.

10. Who said love even had to enter it? Incest could come about simply cause two siblings want to have pleasure, and for whatever reason, choose their sibling as someone who can give it to them. Also, this is an opinion, you can't back this up. For one, their is that sibling love you've mentioned, and doesn't "real" love, come from physical attraction? So, if two siblings are physically attracted, and fall in love, how is that any different than if i fell in love with someone who isn't related?

Kay, so i just addressed those issues. Feel free to challenge me on my rebuttals, and then hopefully you'll tell me any other ones i've missed, and then we can go from there.

 

[nnmartin]

There is a large amount of rebuttal I can put forward against your last post, although right at this moment I am a little pushed for time.

Shame you have come in just as this thread was starting to slip down the thread table as it has been in need of fresh views for at least the last week or two.

anyway, thanks at least for reading the first 10 pages or so and I'll get back to you when I can.

 

[9Westy9]

another factor to consider is that having unprotected incest actually causes harm in advance.

There will be a high chance of causing harm in the future baby -even before conception.

so that counts as harm in my book.

similar to a woman taking drugs or smoking during her pregnancy.

Now would you have sex with a person if you knew they had HIV - even using a condom? - I certainly wouldn't.

There are people with hereditary disabilities that have a high chance of passing it on to their potential children. Should they be forced not to have sex?

 

[Tiberius]

there is an entire thread on the matter in this very section.

have you not seen it?

Lol, you mean this one?

So you are using the definition of "order of nature" that you defined int he first post? You do realise that any such definition doesn't really support your case that we should ban things that go against the order of nature (as defined in your first post).

that implies then, that many people will not use contraception properly so we will end up with some undesired mutant babies. Then what?

Given that such can happen even when the people who are sleeping with each other are entirely unrelated, what are you proposing? That we ban all sex? make people get permits to reproduce?

Anyway, proper education can almost eliminate the chances of contraception being used incorrectly. People can use seatbelts correctly, after all.

A lot of it is about how are bodies were designed to work - mainly in the reproductive sphere.

We are not meant to have incest because of the results with the offspring - Nature's way of telling us no.

Tab A fits into Slot B - Nature's way of telling us how to reproduce.

that's easy enough to understand even for you right?

You know that humans are actually lactose intolerant? They lose the ability to digest lactose after about age four. But, thanks to a mutated gene, many humans regain the ability to digest milk.

So, if Humans were originally lactose intolerant, does that mean it was nature's way of saying we shouldn't drink milk?

Have you read the entire thread yet?

otherwise you can't seriously expect me to repeat all the many reasons yet again as to why incest is wrong and should be banned.

come back when you've done your reading!

Oh come on, Martin. Stop complaining about repeating yourself. All you;ve done in the entire thread is repeat the same few lame arguments over and over.

1. It's against the order of nature (which you never define).
2. It leads to birth defects (which doesn't apply at all unless children are produced, which is an easy thing to avoid in today's society, and is completely impossible with gay incest).
3. It's immoral, depraved, yucky, etc (which are only statements of your opinion. And while it's fine for you to not like it, you don't have the right to say that it is wrong based on your opinion.)

So, Rageoftyrael, those are the arguments that Martin uses. Save yourself reading through the thread. I can't recall Martin ever using an argument that isn't there.

 

[rageoftyrael]

lol, i wouldn't necessarily have a problem reading the whole thing, but it was gonna take so long, and yeah, there was a lot of repeating. either way, at this point, he said he had a lot of rebuttal for the post i just did, and i'm waiting for that, lol.

 

[Tiberius]

I'm curious to see it as well.

 

[Tiberius]

Well, Martin? You said you had a rebuttal, care to post it?

 

[nnmartin]

no, I think I am done with this thread now.

it's been going on too long, pastures new I reckon.

 

[Zoe Doidge]

no, I think I am done with this thread now.

it's been going on too long, pastures new I reckon.

I quite agree.

By now we've established that you have no real argument many times over.

Between your support of a ban despite the fact that your problem with incest is based on nothing but your personal distaste and the claims you've simply invented to support your case you've very effectively destroyed your own position.