Should it be Illegal to Indoctrinate Kids With Religion?

[columbus]

So, it being the case that I see religious indoctrination of children immoral,

Let me put it this way:
I don't consider you or me or anyone else competent to define "religious indoctrination" sufficiently clearly to pass legislation outlawing it.
Tom

 

[leibowde84]

actually we live a virtuous life because of christian teachings. our current morality is christian.

How so?

 

[Nakosis]

Let me put it this way:
I don't consider you or me or anyone else competent to define "religious indoctrination" sufficiently clearly to pass legislation outlawing it.
Tom

Ok.

 

[leibowde84]

actually we live a virtuous life because of christian teachings. our current morality is christian.

This seems patently false, as Christianity did not add anything new to morality.

Murder, theft, adultery, rape, dishonesty, loving one's neighbor, etc. ... all were values before Christianity.

 

[Vee]

Children have to be exposed to the world in order to be socialised and able to cope with the World.
A child that has been insulated from the World is helpless in the World, later on.

Agree. Religion is still an important thing in the world and with that in mind it makes sense that children are in contact with their parents religion.
Also, parents have a right to educate their children in their culture.
It would be great though if all parents had enough consideration for their children to accept that once they are adults they will be entitled to their own choices and those choices are to be respected.

 

[columbus]

Ok.

I see the same problem with many forms of legislating morality.
There's lots of stuff I oppose and want people to stop doing. But passing legislation is giving a bunch of power to people I don't trust all that much. And once the government gets it, they don't give it up easily.
Tom

 

[Nakosis]

I see the same problem with many forms of legislating morality.
There's lots of stuff I oppose and want people to stop doing. But passing legislation is giving a bunch of power to people I don't trust all that much. And once the government gets it, they don't give it up easily.
Tom

I understand your reasoning. While I don't quite agree, I feel it's a matter of opinion at this point.

 

[oldbadger]

Agree. Religion is still an important thing in the world and with that in mind it makes sense that children are in contact with their parents religion.
Also, parents have a right to educate their children in their culture.
It would be great though if all parents had enough consideration for their children to accept that once they are adults they will be entitled to their own choices and those choices are to be respected.

Fair enough.....
As it happens, and although I cannot share JW beliefs, JW youths and people in this area are mostly held in the highest regard, respect, trust and appreciation.
They have never been known to carry out a bad job, deal, trade or sale and are amongst the most trustworthy people that I and most of my neighbours know.

And so I really don't mind seeing JWs visiting homes with their children, or the idea of JWs teaching their children about their faith and way of life. Nobody should ever have the right to stop people teaching their children.

Where I live there are Sikhs, Shia and Sunni Muslims, Christians of many denominations and Creeds, Hindus etc and agnostics and atheists. Parents should have the right to explain their viewpoints to their children. The day that some government tells us that we cannot, that'll be the day that we will all be joined together to vote that government out of existence.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

yes, in a way.

Okay, I'll ask the obvious next question...
Which religion should we teach them?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

How do you feel about child pornoghraphy?
We ban it because we feel it's harmful to children. If religion is harmful to children why is this different?

C'mon now...
I'm in no way pro-theistic, but comparing religion to child pornography...

I could insert ANYTHING in that argument. It says nothing about religion. Further, the group 'religion' is broad.
'So, if we find watching TV is harmful to kids, we should ban it, because...err...child pornography.'

I'm just pointing out we do make illegal some activities we find immoral. This is hypothetical, say if they did a study and found that religious indoctrination cause significant to a child's well being. Is freedom of belief more important than the well being of children?

Religious indoctrination?
Too broad. I would ban certain religions where they are found to encourage specific behaviours which are harmful. Like child sex.
I mean, would you ban Confucianism, because you think some forms of Islam discourage free thought, even if it was proven?

 

[Nakosis]

C'mon now...
I'm in no way pro-theistic, but comparing religion to child pornography...

I could insert ANYTHING in that argument. It says nothing about religion. Further, the group 'religion' is broad.
'So, if we find watching TV is harmful to kids, we should ban it, because...err...child pornography.'

I'm trying to elicit a rational response rather than an emotional response. When it comes to morals maybe morality doesn't rely on rational argument. So if we take out the emotion and focus only on the harm caused.

Religious indoctrination?
Too broad. I would ban certain religions where they are found to encourage specific behaviours which are harmful. Like child sex.
I mean, would you ban Confucianism, because you think some forms of Islam discourage free thought, even if it was proven?

Ok, religion in the sense that it has a portrayal of a God who holds absolute authority. Which in effect is giving that religion absolute authority over a person's life.

So is this form of religion harmful enough to consider banning the indoctrination of children.

Or is there some benefit in this type of religion which outweighs or even balances any potential harm caused.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'm trying to elicit a rational response rather than an emotional response. When it comes to morals maybe morality doesn't rely on rational argument. So if we take out the emotion and focus only on the harm caused.

1) That's not how the world works
2) Even if it was, the TV analogy holds a lot better than the child pornography analogy.
3) You don't want an emotional response, but you choose child pornography as your comparitive despite it having no obvious synergy? Why?

Ok, religion in the sense that it has a portrayal of a God who holds absolute authority. Which in effect is giving that religion absolute authority over a person's life.

So...not religion, then? Just specific beliefs?
Monotheism? Animism is fine?

So is this form of religion harmful enough to consider banning the indoctrination of children.

All monotheisms are the same?

Or is there some benefit in this type of religion which outweighs or even balances any potential harm caused.

So, you think things should be banned unless they can prove there is a benefit outweighing harm.
TV still seems like a good counterpoint to me.

 

[Nakosis]

1) That's not how the world works

If you're saying morality is emotionally based then I agree but this is my view. I'm not sure others shared it.

2) Even if it was, the TV analogy holds a lot better than the child pornography analogy.

Why? Because it is less emotionally charged? Or because the harm is easier to validate?

3) You don't want an emotional response, but you choose child pornography as your comparitive despite it having no obvious synergy? Why?

I think the "synergy" is obvious, harm towards children. So I wanted to see if an argument could be provided not based on emotion.

If it is simply, rationally based on harm and it could be proven that the specific religious ideology did cause actual harm to kids, then what is the rational argument to support its behavior?

So...not religion, then? Just specific beliefs?
Monotheism? Animism is fine?
All monotheisms are the same?

Since others had raised questions about "religious" definition I provided a more focused meaning. So nothing more, nothing less than I defined.

So, you think things should be banned unless they can prove there is a benefit outweighing harm.
TV still seems like a good counterpoint to me.

Actually I'm questioning why shouldn't it be banned if the behavior can be shown to be harmful.

Are you raising your child in a religious authoritarian culture? — Religious Child Maltreatment

Janet Heimlich is an investigative journalist who has explored religious child maltreatment, which describes abuse and neglect in the service of religious belief. In her book, Breaking their Will,Heimlich identifies three characteristics of religious groups that are particularly prone to harming children. Clinical work with reclaimers, that is, people who are reclaiming their lives and in recovery from toxic religion, suggests that these same qualities put adults at risk, along with a particular set of manipulations found in fundamentalist Christian churches and biblical literalism.
1) Authoritarianism,creates a rigid power hierarchy and demands unquestioning obedience. In major theistic religions, this hierarchy has a god or gods at the top, represented by powerful church leaders who have power over male believers, who in turn have power over females and children. Authoritarian Christian sects often teach that “male headship” is God’s will. Parents may go so far as beating or starving their children on the authority of godly leaders. A book titled, To Train Up a Child,by minister Michael Pearl and his wife Debi, has been found in the homes of three Christian adoptive families who have punished their children to death.

The sad, twisted truth about conservative Christianity’s effect on the mind

Janet Heimlich: Right. So, I thought it was extremely important to look at where the problems lie. What causes certain kinds of faith to be healthy for children and what causes certain kinds of faith to be unhealthy. So, I observed from studying many cases, many studies and doing many interviews that there was a universal problematic theme running through a lot of these cases. When a child is being raised in a religious authoritarian culture whether that culture be a single household, a place of worship, a broader community when there are authoritarian influences, I had found that children in those environments are at greater risk for religious child maltreatment and I kind of call out three perfect storm aspects that determine whether or not it is religiously authoritarian. The first is that there's a strict social hierarchy in the culture. The second is that the culture is very fear-based and the third is that there is social separatism

The Social Work Podcast: Religious Child Maltreatment: Interview with Janet Heimlich

But religious indoctrination can be hugely damaging, and making the break from an authoritarian kind of religion can definitely be traumatic. It involves a complete upheaval of a person’s construction of reality, including the self, other people, life, the future, everything. People unfamiliar with it, including therapists, have trouble appreciating the sheer terror it can create and the recovery needed.

Religious Trauma Syndrome: It's Time To Recognize It | MarleneWinell.net

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Why? Because it is less emotionally charged? Or because the harm is easier to validate?

Because it's a broad brush descriptor that include everything from age-sensitive material children can't process through to educational material which helps their growth.

I think the "synergy" is obvious, harm towards children. So I wanted to see if an argument could be provided not based on emotion.

Child pornography harms children. You are assuming religion harms children, and (imho) using a VERY broad brush to do so. Conflating the two is inaccurate. TV is a better analogy, as there is mixed evidence of it's impacts, and it's hard to determine direct cause and effect.

If it is simply, rationally based on harm and it could be proven that the specific religious ideology did cause actual harm to kids, then what is the rational argument to support its behavior?

Go your hardest. If you can prove a specific religious ideology harmed children, I'd want children protected from it. That is quite different entirely from 'should it be illegal to indoctrinate children with religion'.

Since others had raised questions about "religious" definition I provided a more focused meaning. So nothing more, nothing less than I defined.

Was your definition the 'authoritarian God' one? That seems like an epically bad way to categorize, but I'd rather ensure I'm understanding you correctly before extrapolating.

Actually I'm questioning why shouldn't it be banned if the behavior can be shown to be harmful.

Like TV, right? Or football. Or competitive spelling. Or climbing trees. Or getting your hands dirty and muddy.

Are you raising your child in a religious authoritarian culture? — Religious Child Maltreatment

Janet Heimlich is an investigative journalist who has explored religious child maltreatment, which describes abuse and neglect in the service of religious belief. In her book, Breaking their Will,Heimlich identifies three characteristics of religious groups that are particularly prone to harming children. Clinical work with reclaimers, that is, people who are reclaiming their lives and in recovery from toxic religion, suggests that these same qualities put adults at risk, along with a particular set of manipulations found in fundamentalist Christian churches and biblical literalism.
1) Authoritarianism,creates a rigid power hierarchy and demands unquestioning obedience. In major theistic religions, this hierarchy has a god or gods at the top, represented by powerful church leaders who have power over male believers, who in turn have power over females and children. Authoritarian Christian sects often teach that “male headship” is God’s will. Parents may go so far as beating or starving their children on the authority of godly leaders. A book titled, To Train Up a Child,by minister Michael Pearl and his wife Debi, has been found in the homes of three Christian adoptive families who have punished their children to death.

The sad, twisted truth about conservative Christianity’s effect on the mind

Janet Heimlich: Right. So, I thought it was extremely important to look at where the problems lie. What causes certain kinds of faith to be healthy for children and what causes certain kinds of faith to be unhealthy. So, I observed from studying many cases, many studies and doing many interviews that there was a universal problematic theme running through a lot of these cases. When a child is being raised in a religious authoritarian culture whether that culture be a single household, a place of worship, a broader community when there are authoritarian influences, I had found that children in those environments are at greater risk for religious child maltreatment and I kind of call out three perfect storm aspects that determine whether or not it is religiously authoritarian. The first is that there's a strict social hierarchy in the culture. The second is that the culture is very fear-based and the third is that there is social separatism

The Social Work Podcast: Religious Child Maltreatment: Interview with Janet Heimlich

But religious indoctrination can be hugely damaging, and making the break from an authoritarian kind of religion can definitely be traumatic. It involves a complete upheaval of a person’s construction of reality, including the self, other people, life, the future, everything. People unfamiliar with it, including therapists, have trouble appreciating the sheer terror it can create and the recovery needed.

Religious Trauma Syndrome: It's Time To Recognize It | MarleneWinell.net

Wait, wait, wait...

Parents may go so far as beating or starving their children on the authority of godly leaders. A book titled, To Train Up a Child,by minister Michael Pearl and his wife Debi, has been found in the homes of three Christian adoptive families who have punished their children to death

You realise there are existing laws in place already to deal with that, the behaviour is illegal, and the children can be removed, right? What do you think the impact of your proposed laws would be on these particular kinds of insidious sects already behaving in an illegal manner due to religious beliefs? What ARE your proposed laws, and how would you limit them to the intended target, with the caveat that laws should be written to apply to all, and focus on what is being done that is wrong?

 

[madeofsage]

Yes.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Let's say, Ok you want Religion to be Illegal.

What's goes around comes around,
So let's make atheists and homosexualit also Illegal.
Hey fair is fair, not be one sided.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Whether an Atheist wants to accept it or not, they are keeping 70% of God's laws.
Whether they like it or not.

Man's laws originate from God's laws in one way or another.

Even if religion was Illegal, Atheist you would still have God's laws.which man's laws on base on.

What about the law, that says you can not steal, which is base off God's law?

What about the law, that says you can not kill, which is base off God's law?

Therefore Atheists whether you like it or not, your keeping 70% of God's laws.

So even if Religion was to be Illegal, you would still be keeping God's laws.
Go Figure

 

[Darkstorn]

Sorry, I'm not sure which side you're coming down on.

Either you feel we've pursued secularism too long or we've allowed religious freedom too long.

Neither.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Whether an Atheist wants to accept it or not, they are keeping 70% of God's laws.
Whether they like it or not.

Man's laws originate from God's laws in one way or another.

Even if religion was Illegal, Atheist you would still have God's laws.which man's laws on base on.

What about the law, that says you can not steal, which is base off God's law?

What about the law, that says you can not kill, which is base off God's law?

Therefore Atheists whether you like it or not, your keeping 70% of God's laws.

So even if Religion was to be Illegal, you would still be keeping God's laws.
Go Figure

What did people do before Moses?

 

[syo]

Okay, I'll ask the obvious next question...
Which religion should we teach them?

anyone of the major religions. their core beliefs are the same. love your neighbour, don't murder, etc.