Should religion be tolerated?

[Storm]

I've tried to think that Mestimia. I truley have but it didn't work.

Try harder.

Religious people faithfully and continually demonstrated their stupidity/hate/ignorance, by their actions.

Some do, not all.

Concider this; what was the main reason slavery existed in the US? IT's because religion justified it.

That is a gross and dishonest (or ignorant, at best) oversimplification.

Now if slavery would never of been abolished, don't you think all of these Christians who say they're appalled by it, would be supportive of it? I do.

I can't tell what you're trying to say here.

I haven't been discredited in anyway. If I were I would of acknowleged that by walking away from this thread.

I doubt it. You're doing nothing but discrediting yourself, and yet you keep doing it.

I'm not painting every theist under the same catagory. Just the one's that are religious.

"Religious" is an even broader term than "theistic."

 

[DarkMaster24]

So, the hundreds of thousands of Hindus who faced the guns of the British with gentle kindness and nonviolence, the followers of King who were set upon by firehoses and attack dogs in the south, all of them doing the best in the name of their religious beliefs to bring on a brighter tomorrow for their children...they were not accurate representatives of their religions?

Look, you can look throughout history and find horrifying abuses perpetrated in the name of God. Stipulated. I can find horrifying abuses committed in the name of sciene and reason. The first abuses had no more to do with the messages of their faith than the second had to do with science. Instead, they was all about evil people doing evil on others, and twisting the meanings of their paths in order to rationalize their actions. However, Torquemada (for instance) was no more a representative of Jesus, and Osama Bin Laden is no more a representative of Islam, then Josef Mengele is a representative of the scientific community.

The difference is that those religions tought their fallowers to commit those horrendous crimes, science doesn't. There is nothing in Darwin's Theory that would advocate for the mass killing or crule experimentation on people of diferent color. And Osama Bin Ladin is an accurate reflection of his faith. Read the Koran and you'll see that it has alot of scripture backing up Osama's twisted ideas of killing nonbelievers. i know they are in there because I've wread them.

 

[Storm]

The difference is that those religions tought their fallowers to commit those horrendous crimes, science doesn't. There is nothing in Darwin's Theory that would advocate for the mass killing or crule experimentation on people of diferent color. And Osama Bin Ladin is an accurate reflection of his faith. Read the Koran and you'll see that it has alot of scripture backing up Osama's twisted ideas of killing nonbelievers. i know they are in there because I've wread them.

No, they didn't. The fact that some scriptures contain verses that can be twisted to support atrocities if you ignore everything else the religion teaches does not mean that the religion teaches them. Anything can be abused.

 

[DarkMaster24]

I honestly can't tell, are you being sarcastic?


Haven't what?


Well, I'm sorry for that, but all I can say is you've been going to the wrong churches. I've had experiences like yours, yes, but I've also seen the other end of the spectrum.


Yes, they do. The problem here is not religion, it's you thinking in absolutes. Your experiences are not definitive.

No, I was being serious, I had no idea you were a woman of faith.

I haven't had limited experience with religious people. I've been to and lived in several states and my religious experience has never changed.

Is that really how you're ganna justify it? Been going to the wrong churches? How convenient. I've been to many churches of most sect.sdenominations and they are all hateful/intolerent of anyone who doesn't share their worldveiw. You're excuse is simply pandering to your faith, and I find that objectionable.

Seeing as my expeirences are what I base my veiws on, they are definitive to me.

 

[DarkMaster24]

Try harder.


Some do, not all.


That is a gross and dishonest (or ignorant, at best) oversimplification.


I can't tell what you're trying to say here.


I doubt it. You're doing nothing but discrediting yourself, and yet you keep doing it.


"Religious" is an even broader term than "theistic."

I am. That's why I joined this site.

Correction: most do, not all

/
It's not dishonest nor is it a misrepresentation or anything at all like that. It's a fact. The bible does justify slavery, which is the main reason the lazy southerners wanted to keep them as slaves. Remember it was the largely secular New England states that freed the slaves.

Haha, I haven't discredited myself. If showing logical, fact-supported arguements is discrediting myself while making blank assertions isn't, then yeah I am.

It might be, but by theistic, in the way I was using it meant that theist = non religious believer in god.

 

[DarkMaster24]

No, they didn't. The fact that some scriptures contain verses that can be twisted to support atrocities if you ignore everything else the religion teaches does not mean that the religion teaches them. Anything can be abused.

How can gthey be "twisted" when they explicitly condone slavery? And how can the Koran be misreprestented when it too, clearly condones killing people who aren't of their faith? The religion may teach some magnificent things regarding Morality, but that doesn't excuse it of all the fallible things it teaches on Morality as well.

 

[Storm]

No, I was being serious, I had no idea you were a woman of faith.

Indeed I am. My theology is way, WAAAAAY out there, and yet the UUs welcome me with open arms. I'm also bi, poor and liberal (ok, that last part isn't exactly different where UUs are concerned). I am a living contradiction of your stereotype.

I haven't had limited experience with religious people. I've been to and lived in several states and my religious experience has never changed.

Then I can only assume the other option.

Is that really how you're ganna justify it?

I'm not justifying anything, I'm pointing out a fact which is inconvenient to your bigotry.

Been going to the wrong churches? How convenient. I've been to many churches of most sect.sdenominations and they are all hateful/intolerent of anyone who doesn't share their worldveiw.

I'm not denying that such people exist, I've encountered them myself. I'm denying your attempt to portray ALL religious people as such.

Example: I'm from Lubbock, TX. It's conservative, mean spirited, and Christian. Even there, we had a UU congregation that included an Orthodox rabbi and a Muslim, and eschewed traditional services in favor of lectures on topics like Mthological Themes in the Garden of Eden.

If you can't find decent, accepting religious people, you're not looking hard enough. They're everywhere.

You're excuse is simply pandering to your faith, and I find that objectionable.

No, what you find objectionable is my refusal to pander to your bigotry.

Seeing as my expeirences are what I base my veiws on, they are definitive to me.

Now you're just being deliberately obtuse.

 

[J Bryson]

Okay. Where does Jesus say "Kill the infidel?" for the Inquisition? And yet the Inquisition thought that burning heretics at the stake was peachy.
Again, nothing stated, but it was twisted.

It's all a matter of interpretation to some people. Mengele twisted Darwin beyond recognition to see the Jews as subhuman, and said that in the name of science it was important to make certain sacrifices. Antebellum and Civil War era Southern preachers used certain out of context Biblical passages to justify slavery.

However, if your experiences with twisted religious people were so traumatizing as to cause you to see no good in religion whatsoever, then that is your path, and I will respect it to the utmost of my ability.

 

[Storm]

I am. That's why I joined this site.

Apparently not, since you're doing nothing but attempting to justify your admitted bigotry.

Correction: most do, not all

Prove it. I won't hold my breath.

It's not dishonest nor is it a misrepresentation or anything at all like that. It's a fact. The bible does justify slavery, which is the main reason the lazy southerners wanted to keep them as slaves. Remember it was the largely secular New England states that freed the slaves.

It completely ignores all the socio-economic factors of the equation. You know, the parts that actually mattered? New England was not "largely secular." And Northern religious institutions were at the forefront of the abolitionist movement.

Haha, I haven't discredited myself. If showing logical, fact-supported arguements is discrediting myself while making blank assertions isn't, then yeah I am.

Pity you haven't done any such thing.

It might be, but by theistic, in the way I was using it meant that theist = non religious believer in god.

Problem is, that's not remotely what it means.

 

[J Bryson]

There was some preacher who had a bit of an issue with slavery...oh, yeah, John Brown....

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

I'm certainly with Storm on this, and we come from very different traditions. I don't know where you have been going to church. I have been to many different churches over the years, both Catholic and Protestant, and I don't find them teeming with hatred. Of course I have run into people who harbor mentalities that I think are toxic- but that includes a fair number of non-religious people as well.

 

[DarkMaster24]

Indeed I am. My theology is way, WAAAAAY out there, and yet the UUs welcomeme with open arms. I'm also bi, poor and liberal (ok, that last part isn't exactly differenet where UUs are concerned). I am a living contradiction of your stereotype.


Then I can only assume the other option.

Either way, you'd be mistaken.

I'm not justifying anything, I'm pointing out a fact which is inconvenient to your bigotry.


I'm not denying that such people exist, I've encountered them myself. I'm denying your attempt to portray ALL religious people as such.


Example: I'm from Lubbock, TX. It's conservative, mean spirited, and Christian. Even there, we had a UU congregation that included an Orthodox rabbi and a Muslim, and eschewed traditional services in favor of lectures on topics like Mthological Themes in the Garden of Eden.


If you can't find decent, accepting religious people, you're not looking hard enough. They're everywhere.


No, what you find objectionable is my refusal to pander to your bigotry.


Now you're just being deliberately obtuse.

Okay, I don't have any clue about UU or anything like it so I wont comment about it, but I'm glad you've found a church that is accepting of you.

Either way, you'd be mistaken.

How is it bigotry when I have evidanc eto support my assertions? And you haven't pointed out anything, either. All you've done is try hard (and fail) at defending hateful Christians.

Ill type this in caps lock and hopefully youll finally understand; IM NOT SAYING ALL PEOPLE OF FAITH ARE EVIL, JUST MOST OF THEM. AGAIN SOME OF MY CLOSEST FREINDS ARE OF FAITH AND I DONT HATE THEM.

Now do you understand?

Again, I don't know much about that so I don't have much to say here. Congratulations on finding a church that meets your needs.

Dispite the fact that I've literally been to hundreds of churches trying as hard as I can to find more.

 

[DarkMaster24]

Apparently not, since you're doing nothing but attempting to justify your admitted bigotry.


Prove it. I won't hold my breath.


It completely ignores all the socio-economic factors of the equation. You know, the parts that actually mattered? New England was not "largely secular." And Northern religious institutions were at the forefront of the abolitionist movement.


Pity you haven't done any such thing.


Problem is, that's not remotely what it means.

How's it bigotry when I want badly for it not to be true. I was hoping when I joined this site I would meet some, but seeing as you're being just as hostile as alot of you're kind, I'm only reinforced in my so-called bigotry. Nice one.

I've perosonally proven it to myself and like I said, you're doing nothing more than helping me realize it even more. Thanks for that.

Yeah, definitly. I know I haven't made any blank assertions.

Fine, what does theist mean than?

 

[McBell]

How's it bigotry when I want badly for it not to be true. I was hoping when I joined this site I would meet some, but seeing as you're being just as hostile as alot of you're kind, I'm only reinforced in my so-called bigotry. Nice one.

I've perosonally proven it to myself and like I said, you're doing nothing more than helping me realize it even more. Thanks for that.

Yeah, definitly. I know I haven't made any blank assertions.

Fine, what does theist mean than?

Wow.
I mean, just....wow.

 

[Storm]

DarkMaster, if you can't tell the difference between hostility and refusal to be a doormat, I'm done wasting my time. I also find it funny that just a day or two after thanking me for my kindness, you're whining about my hostility because I dared to defend myself. When you talk about "the religious" you're talking about ME. You're talking about MY FRIENDS. And even if you weren't, you would still be wrong. It's not hostility to try and make you see reason.

On the other thread, I disclosed that I myself struggle with bigotry, in my case racism. All the black people I have known/ encountered personally have been ignorant, skeevy thugs. Would it be fair for me to conclude that all black people are therefore ignorant, skeevy thugs? If I started ranting about them, would you not call me out on it?

 

[J Bryson]

All that Storm has done, DarkMaster, is present you with alternate points of view to the ones you hold. In return, she has been met with nothing but narrow-mindedness from you and a refusal to deeply consider her points of view. I personally linked you to principles of our church that address every single understandable problem that you have had with organized religion.

At this point, I suspect that you're here to lecture religious people on their failings rather than here to learn anything, or open yourself up to alternative points of view. If I am wrong, I apologize in advance, and look forward to your response to the information presented.

 

[DarkMaster24]

Wow.
I mean, just....wow.

What's that supposed to mean?

 

[DarkMaster24]

DarkMaster, if you can't tell the difference between hostility and refusal to be a doormat, I'm done wasting my time. I also find it funny that just a day or two after thanking me for my kindness, you're whining about my hostility because I dared to defend myself. When you talk about "the religious" you're talking about ME. You're talking about MY FRIENDS. And even if you weren't, you would still be wrong. It's not hostility to try and make you see reason.

On the other thread, I disclosed that I myself struggle with bigotry, in my case racism. All the black people I have known/ encountered personally have been ignorant, skeevy thugs. Would it be fair for me to conclude that all black people are therefore ignorant, skeevy thugs? If I started ranting about them, would you not call me out on it?

Well, I just said that because we were both trading insults with one another and it seemed like it was digressing from a debate to a heated arguement. Sorry about that. But that's the thing, I was only refering to mainstream Christians and other religions. I know nothing about UU, so I can't say anything about it. But the way you were doing it was just so different from the way you were treating me before. I guess I was just kind of surprised you'd come off so strong. I just didn't expect that from you.

Yes I'd call you out on it, but there's an inate difference between being religious and race. Black people don't choose to be black, in the way that you choose to be religious, so there two completely different topics and it's a rather absurd comparison. Do you mean, that literally every black person you've met is like that? Or are you just saying that out of frustration? Even I haven't said that EVERy religious person I met is a racist idiot. Somehow I doubt it's true that every black person you've known is like that.

 

[DarkMaster24]

All that Storm has done, DarkMaster, is present you with alternate points of view to the ones you hold. In return, she has been met with nothing but narrow-mindedness from you and a refusal to deeply consider her points of view. I personally linked you to principles of our church that address every single understandable problem that you have had with organized religion.

At this point, I suspect that you're here to lecture religious people on their failings rather than here to learn anything, or open yourself up to alternative points of view. If I am wrong, I apologize in advance, and look forward to your response to the information presented.

But I have concidered her points, I still don't agree with them though. And don't say I've been narrow-minded because I haven't. Narrow-minded would mean that I'm saying something when I don't know what I'm talking about. There's a difference. I do intend to read the link you've given me on your church beliefs, when i have more time.

I'm not though. My goal here is to learn different points on religion and see if there are truely more people of faith that can be respectful. I'm hoping to meet some. I thought Storm was one, but now I don't know.

 

[Storm]

Well, I just said that because we were both trading insults with one another and it seemed like it was digressing from a debate to a heated arguement. Sorry about that.

I wasn't insulting you, though. I was pointing out flaws in your reasoning. You made a point of inviting straight talk. I assumed you could handle it.

But that's the thing, I was only refering to mainstream Christians and other religions.

So what? Bigotry is acceptable so long as it doesn't apply to me personally?

I know nothing about UU, so I can't say anything about it. But the way you were doing it was just so different from the way you were treating me before. I guess I was just kind of surprised you'd come off so strong. I just didn't expect that from you.

I call it as I see it. In the other thread, you said you tried to avoid bigotry, here you try to justify it. If you hadn't said you're trying to change, I would just ignore you. Instead, I'm trying to help, and you start whining about hostility.

Yes I'd call you out on it, but there's an inate difference between being religious and race. Black people don't choose to be black, in the way that you choose to be religious, so there two completely different topics and it's a rather absurd comparison.

No. Bigotry is bigotry. You're just justifying again.

Do you mean, that literally every black person you've met is like that? Or are you just saying that out of frustration? Even I haven't said that EVERy religious person I met is a racist idiot.

Yes, every one. The difference is, I remember that my experience has been limited.

Somehow I doubt it's true that every black person you've known is like that.

I doubt you've been to "literally hundreds of churches" and not found a single decent person, so I guess we're even.