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Should Religious leaders be involved in any form of public school employment

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AxisMundi

E Pluribus Unum!!!
Here is the USDOE guidelines on religion in public schools, probrably the only sensible thing to come out of that department, offered here because so many people seem unaware...


Prayer During Noninstructional Time

Students may pray when not engaged in school activities or instruction, subject to the same rules designed to prevent material disruption of the educational program that are applied to other privately initiated expressive activities. Among other things, students may read their Bibles or other scriptures, say grace before meals, and pray or study religious materials with fellow students during recess, the lunch hour, or other noninstructional time to the same extent that they may engage in nonreligious activities. While school authorities may impose rules of order and pedagogical restrictions on student activities, they may not discriminate against student prayer or religious speech in applying such rules and restrictions.
Organized Prayer Groups and Activities

Students may organize prayer groups, religious clubs, and "see you at the pole" gatherings before school to the same extent that students are permitted to organize other non-curricular student activities groups. Such groups must be given the same access to school facilities for assembling as is given to other non-curricular groups, without discrimination because of the religious content of their expression. School authorities possess substantial discretion concerning whether to permit the use of school media for student advertising or announcements regarding non-curricular activities. However, where student groups that meet for nonreligious activities are permitted to advertise or announce their meetings—for example, by advertising in a student newspaper, making announcements on a student activities bulletin board or public address system, or handing out leaflets—school authorities may not discriminate against groups who meet to pray. School authorities may disclaim sponsorship of non-curricular groups and events, provided they administer such disclaimers in a manner that neither favors nor disfavors groups that meet to engage in prayer or religious speech.
Teachers, Administrators, and other School Employees

When acting in their official capacities as representatives of the state, teachers, school administrators, and other school employees are prohibited by the Establishment Clause from encouraging or discouraging prayer, and from actively participating in such activity with students. Teachers may, however, take part in religious activities where the overall context makes clear that they are not participating in their official capacities. Before school or during lunch, for example, teachers may meet with other teachers for prayer or Bible study to the same extent that they may engage in other conversation or nonreligious activities. Similarly, teachers may participate in their personal capacities in privately sponsored baccalaureate ceremonies.
Moments of Silence

If a school has a "minute of silence" or other quiet periods during the school day, students are free to pray silently, or not to pray, during these periods of time. Teachers and other school employees may neither encourage nor discourage students from praying during such time periods.
Accommodation of Prayer During Instructional Time

It has long been established that schools have the discretion to dismiss students to off-premises religious instruction, provided that schools do not encourage or discourage participation in such instruction or penalize students for attending or not attending. Similarly, schools may excuse students from class to remove a significant burden on their religious exercise, where doing so would not impose material burdens on other students. For example, it would be lawful for schools to excuse Muslim students briefly from class to enable them to fulfill their religious obligations to pray during Ramadan.
Where school officials have a practice of excusing students from class on the basis of parents' requests for accommodation of nonreligious needs, religiously motivated requests for excusal may not be accorded less favorable treatment. In addition, in some circumstances, based on federal or state constitutional law or pursuant to state statutes, schools may be required to make accommodations that relieve substantial burdens on students' religious exercise. Schools officials are therefore encouraged to consult with their attorneys regarding such obligations.
Religious Expression and Prayer in Class Assignments

Students may express their beliefs about religion in homework, artwork, and other written and oral assignments free from discrimination based on the religious content of their submissions. Such home and classroom work should be judged by ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance and against other legitimate pedagogical concerns identified by the school. Thus, if a teacher's assignment involves writing a poem, the work of a student who submits a poem in the form of a prayer (for example, a psalm) should be judged on the basis of academic standards (such as literary quality) and neither penalized nor rewarded on account of its religious content.

More here...
http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/religionandschools/prayer_guidance.html
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
1. That's the short list.
2. Agreed, however...
3. Clergy have much more motivation to break laws and indoctrinate kids in public schools.

Yes, I am generalizing, to a point. I've worked with Clergy in the past for community endeavors who would never think to overstep the law and try and indoctrinate children in a public school. One is the wife of a retired Rear Admiral who spent most of her life living overseas being exposed to different cultures and religions.

However, those clergy are in the minority I have found.

When a person devotes themselves to their god and enters the preisthood, they give up certain things. Clergy may be required to give up sex, they voluntarilly give up personal time to care for their parishioners and fully expect to be called out at all hours, and may have to give up even more.

So the idea of banning clergy from public school is hardly even worth noting. If they feel compelled, or guided, to teach, there is always Parochial Schools.
It takes more than that to justify discrimination.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
You know, this is starting to **** me off. I love teaching. I always have. I use to volunteer tutor grade school children in math and science and I was the only approved accounting tutor the entire time I was in college. The idea that some prejudice whack-a-doos think I shouldn't be allowed to teach because I just happen to be ordained is ludicrous. Being ordained clergy does NOT equal proselytizing ****** who want's to "indoctrinate" your children. I'd absolutely hate that being done to my children so why would I do it to anyone else's kids??? Knock off the stereotyping and prejudice in this thread already. It only makes you look like flying ignorami!!!
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
However, clergy are one step up from the average religious layman. Clergy have taken the time to go through the steps neccessary to become clergy, be it seminary or other classes. Clergy are also (suppsoed to be) that much more devout as well.

It is the duty of Christian clergy to not only "lead the flock" but to increase the size of that flock as well.
It's also the duty of a Mary Kay or Avon salesperson to sell cosmetics. That by itself doesn't make a person who sells Mary Kay a bad teacher. The conflict only arises if they try to sell makeup (or proselytize) to their students.
 

AxisMundi

E Pluribus Unum!!!
However, that is not relevant to a person being a member of clergy AND a certified and qualified teacher. The two don't negate one another.

Does in this country.

Plenty of Parochials if they feel compelled to teach.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Does in this country.

Plenty of Parochials if they feel compelled to teach.

Really? Do tell me then...where should I teach? :sarcastic

Oh, and I felt compelled to teach long before I decided to get ordained I'll have you know.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Just seems to me a couple people here are more than willing to step on the rights of a lot of people just to be able to "stick it to" a certain group they perceive do wrong. Let's just forget the argument that not every Christian member of clergy is a proselytizing douche. There are members of clergy for OTHER religions as well. Does everyone conveniently forget that? Why should I, a Wiccan, be punished and denied the ability to teach anywhere (there ARE NO Wiccan grade or high schools, not that I want to teach anything that has to do with my religion anyway!!! damnit,...I like teaching math and science subjects!) just because you have a branch up your butt over a certain religion?
 

AxisMundi

E Pluribus Unum!!!
Really? Do tell me then...where should I teach? :sarcastic

Oh, and I felt compelled to teach long before I decided to get ordained I'll have you know.

Is Wicca a theopolitical entity like the Abrahamics?
Are there Wiccan parochial schools?
But to avoid the double standard, I would say you also should not be permitted to teach in secualr public schools.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Said teacher "does" clergy work.

As I said, if they wish to educate, plenty of Parochials.
:facepalm:

Let me rephrase: discrimination is only called for on the basis of what a teacher does in the context of his or her job. What a teacher does on their own time is their own business. It's only the school's business if the teacher is doing something improper in the school.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Is Wicca a theopolitical entity like the Abrahamics?
Are there Wiccan parochial schools?
But to avoid the double standard, I would say you also should not be permitted to teach in secualr public schools.

Theopolitical entity? Theopolitical? What??? If you are trying to refer to "theocracy" then I still don't have a clue what you are trying to get at.

No, there are no Wiccan parochial schools. Wiccans, by and large, don't believe in inflicting their beliefs on anyone else. It's something that each person must come to on their own.

You haven't come up with ONE good reason that clergy members should not be able to teach in a public school. AND very luckily, your opinion doesn't matter one hoot and doesn't affect the fact that I CAN teach in a public school. Instead of being a jerk why don't you just admit that you are wrong and that denying all memebers of clergy, regardless of religion, from being teachers is wrong and prejudice and based on your own bias with nothing to do with the realities of the situation? then you wouldn't have to worry about that pesky "double standard". Otherwise it's exactly like I said...you want to punish ALL people of a wide group because of what you perceive to be wrongs perpetrated by a very small section of that group. If that's not bigotry and discrimination I don't know what is.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
You haven't come up with ONE good reason that clergy members should not be able to teach in a public school. AND very luckily, your opinion doesn't matter one hoot and doesn't affect the fact that I CAN teach in a public school.
In fact, I can see how various types of experience that a pastor would get could make them more qualified to be a teacher. For instance, experience dealing with unruly kids on Sunday would probably help them deal with unruly kids Monday to Friday.
 

AxisMundi

E Pluribus Unum!!!
:facepalm:

Let me rephrase: discrimination is only called for on the basis of what a teacher does in the context of his or her job. What a teacher does on their own time is their own business. It's only the school's business if the teacher is doing something improper in the school.

Absolutely agreed. What an educator does on their own time, as long as it is legal, is their own business.

However, exactly how much time does a Pastor have, for example?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Absolutely agreed. What an educator does on their own time, as long as it is legal, is their own business.

However, exactly how much time does a Pastor have, for example?
Depends on the pastor. Some run churches full-time. Other clergy, such as my brother- and sister-in-law who are both ordained Buddhist monks, or the majority of Mormon men (since IIRC virtually all Mormon men are considered priests) have very demanding full time jobs unrelated to their religious positions.
 
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