Should Religious leaders be involved in any form of public school employment

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They same could be said for people who don't, apperently, support secularism in government and government institutions.

One of the fundamental aspects of secularism is not giving special treatment, whether positive or negative, to people on the basis of their religious beliefs or lack thereof. You're talking about excluding people from occupations on the basis of nothing other than their religious affiliation; this runs completely counter to the ideals of secularism.

 

[Draka]

One of the fundamental aspects of secularism is not giving special treatment, whether positive or negative, to people on the basis of their religious beliefs or lack thereof. You're talking about excluding people from occupations on the basis of nothing other than their religious affiliation; this runs completely counter to the ideals of secularism.

:clap:clap:clap EXACTLY

 

[AxisMundi]

Strawman. We all support secularism. We just don't all support unjustifiable discrimination.

You have yet to establish this as unsupported discrimination.

Would you support someone like Pat Robertson being POTUS?

 

[AxisMundi]

One of the fundamental aspects of secularism is not giving special treatment, whether positive or negative, to people on the basis of their religious beliefs or lack thereof. You're talking about excluding people from occupations on the basis of nothing other than their religious affiliation; this runs completely counter to the ideals of secularism.

Average people? Certainly.

However, clergy are religious professionals, not average religious people.

 

[Storm]

You have yet to establish this as unsupported discrimination.

That's not how it works. It's your job to support your own position. Since you're incapable of doing so, your argument fails.

Would you support someone like Pat Robertson being POTUS?

Get it through your head: stereotyping does not impress me.

 

[Storm]

Average people? Certainly.

However, clergy are religious professionals, not average religious people.

Discrimination is still discrimination, however narrow the demographic.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Average people? Certainly.

However, clergy are religious professionals, not average religious people.

Ah... so you support secularism, but only to a point.

And define "professional".

 

[Draka]

"Professional"? To be "professional" would imply that I get paid for my services. That it is a job for me. I am an "average" religious person who just happened to get ordained in order to help others of like religion out in matters of religious ceremony. Shoot man, the first wedding I performed was for a Christian couple and I have NEVER been paid for my services. Some people have gotten ordained simply for the purpose of being able to perform legal weddings. For THAT matter, EVERY solitary practitioner of Wicca is considered a priest or priestess whether or not they are legally ordained. You would like to discriminate against me for having a peice of paper some other people have simply because you don't like the actions of a few. You might as well discriminate against all solitary Wiccans as well for we are all our own clergy...legal or not.

 

[Moonstone]

If they keep everything religious to themselves, i really don't see a problem with it. Well as long as they don't try shoving anything down anyones throat i mean.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You would like to discriminate against me for having a peice of paper some other people have simply because you don't like the actions of a few. You might as well discriminate against all solitary Wiccans as well for we are all our own clergy...legal or not.

Same for most Mormon men (who are generally ordained to some level of their priesthood, or most Quakers (who, generally, adhere to the belief of a "priesthood of all believers"), just to mention a few other religious groups who follow similar practices.

 

[AxisMundi]

That's not how it works. It's your job to support your own position. Since you're incapable of doing so, your argument fails.


Get it through your head: stereotyping does not impress me.

1. Some discrimination is justified. Separate bathrooms for instance. Keeping the institutions of religion and government are vital, and calls for some justified discrimination.

2. Please answer the question, would you support Pat Robertson as POTUS. Very simple question.

 

[AxisMundi]

"Professional"? To be "professional" would imply that I get paid for my services. That it is a job for me. I am an "average" religious person who just happened to get ordained in order to help others of like religion out in matters of religious ceremony. Shoot man, the first wedding I performed was for a Christian couple and I have NEVER been paid for my services. Some people have gotten ordained simply for the purpose of being able to perform legal weddings. For THAT matter, EVERY solitary practitioner of Wicca is considered a priest or priestess whether or not they are legally ordained. You would like to discriminate against me for having a peice of paper some other people have simply because you don't like the actions of a few. You might as well discriminate against all solitary Wiccans as well for we are all our own clergy...legal or not.

Please show where payment is required to be a professional.

Your ordination is like a College Degree.

 

[Storm]

1. Some discrimination is justified.

And some isn't. Since you have yet to justify yours......

2. Please answer the question, would you support Pat Robertson as POTUS. Very simple question.

No, I'm not going to play your little game.

 

[Draka]

Please show where payment is required to be a professional.

Your ordination is like a College Degree.

I just LOVE how you ignored the vast majority of my post there. :sarcastic

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

1. Some discrimination is justified. Separate bathrooms for instance. Keeping the institutions of religion and government are vital, and calls for some justified discrimination.

I don't think that you're using the same definition for "justified" as the rest of us.

2. Please answer the question, would you support Pat Robertson as POTUS. Very simple question.

There's a difference between simply voting some other candidate and demanding that he be barred from running for the office at all.

 

[Draka]

So, let's see if I can find the opposing argument somewhere in all this.

Hmm, we have a couple people who have a personal issue with clergy of a particular religion. They would like to discriminate against said people, but since they don't want to come off as religiously biased by discriminating against people of that religion in general, they decide it's okay to discriminate against all clergy no matter what religion...so they are, in their own minds, being "fair" since they are spreading their bigotry and prejudice across the board to affect all religions' clergy. Thus...they get to openly "stick it to" the ones they want AND pretend like they have a good argument by "sticking it to" to people who have nothing to do with their original problems in the first place.

Do I have that all about right? Because, when you look at it, seems like one hell of a bad argument based soley on personal issues and vengence for supposed wrongs, to hell with anyone who gets stepped on along the way.

 

[IndieVisible]

I think reason should prevail here.

If your sick you go to a doctor, not a preacher.

You go to school to learn about math, science, history and english.

You go to church to worship and learn about what man has to say about God.

So let's say your visiting your doctor and he walks in the room with a Preacher, kind of weird? I agree.

Let's say your in school and you see a priest in a class room, kind of weird? I agree.

How about if you go to Church and there is a famous atheist there for the morning sermon? Kind of weird?

Common sense should prevail!

 

[Storm]

I think reason should prevail here.

If your sick you go to a doctor, not a preacher.

You go to school to learn about math, science, history and english.

You go to church to worship and learn about what man has to say about God.

So let's say your visiting your doctor and he walks in the room with a Preacher, kind of weird? I agree.

Let's say your in school and you see a priest in a class room, kind of weird? I agree.

How about if you go to Church and there is a famous atheist there for the morning sermon? Kind of weird?

Common sense should prevail!

And what principle of common sense says clergy can't hold another job?

 

[Draka]

Exactly, and common sense should dictate that people can be more than one thing at a time and that they don't have to interfere with each other.

I can be a math teacher AND a pilot. Doesn't mean I take my students on my plane and fly them around.

I can be a doctor AND volunteer at a soup kitchen. Doesn't mean I give all my patients soup.

I can be a chef AND veteranarian. Doesn't mean I cook up any poor animals that might die in my care, nor does it mean I cook my patients five star meals.

I can be ordained AND be a science teacher. Doesn't mean I'll start performing marriages for my students in the classroom.

 

[IndieVisible]

And what principle of common sense says clergy can't hold another job?

Where did I say they could not? They can be plumbers, painters, dishwashers, delivery drivers, deliver pizzas, newspapers, there are some positions that would simply appear to be a conflict of interest, schools are one of them unless we are talking janitorial which should not be a problem.