Should Sharia Law be forbidden in Non-Muslim (Western) countries?

[Shadow Wolf]

Islam is a sobering warning for the dangers of taking theistic beliefs too seriously. What it is not is a succesful recipe for a healthy society, if the actual history is any indication.

What about self-immolating Buddhist? Or Hindu terrorists?

 

[Limo]

I had to guess. It wasn't very obvious.


I sure did!

Islam is composed of Muslims, far as I can see.

I'm just not sure what you are disapproving of.


According to many I am part of God's project on Earth. Not sure if that qualifies as the shadow you speak of.

I am not sure why some particular qualification would have to be met before I had an opinion, either.

Or maybe you are not ready to accept that someone might sincerely think of Islam as a mistake to be rid of?

Or maybe you are mistaking what I say for some sort of calling for violence?

Again, I am just not sure what you disapprove of.


As it turns out, I happen to be exactly who I would have to be: a person who exists on a world that has Islam in it.

By luck of the draw, I happen to also be in the exact position that allows me to have a definite opinion on Islam. After all, the Qur'an essentially proclaims that either it is truthful or we atheists are liars. I know which.

Ok looks like you're sure about your idea of finiah Islam
Ok, suppose that same idea is created now within Muslims and decided to finish atheists and Christianity?

 

[LuisDantas]

What about self-immolating Buddhist? Or Hindu terrorists?

Indeed, what about them?

 

[LuisDantas]

Ok looks like you're sure about your idea of finiah Islam

I don't know what finiah means. I have certainly made an effort to learn about Islam, to my growing disappointment.

Ok, suppose that same idea is created now within Muslims and decided to finish atheists and Christianity?

You have not been hesitating to attempt to convert us. As a matter of fact, you never did.

 

[YmirGF]

Yes.

Was England foolish for doing the same thing with the IRA? Afterall, the IRA chilled out and a "cease fire" was reached.

Ah, Shadow Wolf, the Muslim Brotherhood (and international group) can hardly be compared to the IRA by any stretch of the imagination except perhaps on a very superficial level.

 

[icehorse]

Ok looks like you're sure about your idea of finiah Islam
Ok, suppose that same idea is created now within Muslims and decided to finish atheists and Christianity?

Limo,

Let me try again to clear something up. The ONLY thing we're talking about is getting people to change their minds. When Luis talks about ending Islam, the ONLY thing he means is for Muslims to see Islam more clearly and understand that it is a bad set of ideas that they should walk away from. That's it! No violence. Just a changing of minds.

 

[icehorse]

Predictability isn't necessarily a good thing.

SW, In the context of a legal system - which is what we're discussing - can you give a few examples of how unpredictability would be a good thing? If what's legal and what's illegal is unpredictable, that sounds like fascism, no?

 

[Notanumber]

This is an example of what Sharia Law can lead to

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/72...er-footage-former-Tory-candidate-ITV-Exposure

 

[YmirGF]

This is an example of what Sharia Law can lead to

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/72...er-footage-former-Tory-candidate-ITV-Exposure

I don't know what the problem is he seemed to be a perfectly reasonable fellow....

 

[LuisDantas]

Ah, Shadow Wolf, the Muslim Brotherhood (and international group) can hardly be compared to the IRA by any stretch of the imagination except perhaps on a very superficial level.

I have to agree.

IRA, on any of its incarnations, has very specific goals that are of course largely restricted to Ireland.

The Muslim Brotherhood is a proselitist organization with a global reach and often questioned methods.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

SW, In the context of a legal system - which is what we're discussing - can you give a few examples of how unpredictability would be a good thing? If what's legal and what's illegal is unpredictable, that sounds like fascism, no?

I didn't claim unpredictability is good. Rather that stability is not necessarily a good thing, because then it becomes just the way things are and the way things are done just because that's the way it is. This can become just as difficult to defeat as unpredictability.

 

[icehorse]

I didn't claim unpredictability is good. Rather that stability is not necessarily a good thing, because then it becomes just the way things are and the way things are done just because that's the way it is. This can become just as difficult to defeat as unpredictability.

Right. So we have to be clear that predictability is not the same as stability. And I agree that enforced stability is a huge problem. Enforced stability easily devolves to dogma.

So IMO, the ideal legal system should be predictable at any given moment, AND it should be open to evolution.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Ah, Shadow Wolf, the Muslim Brotherhood (and international group) can hardly be compared to the IRA by any stretch of the imagination except perhaps on a very superficial level.

It's the idea that fringe/outsider groups become more cooperative if they are allowed to participate in the system. I'm not suggesting we give a voice to groups like ISIS, but we can't ignore the fact the Western governments, especially America, play a very active role in creating, fueling, and sustaining anti-American/Western sentiments, and the ability to fight back against America/West is a big reason many join groups like ISIS (or to fight against other local regimes, forming alliances of convenience and opportunity rather than principle and mutually shared ideology).
Clearly the problem is going to take time and small steps to fix, and fighting has proven to only make things much, much worse. Supporting more Liberal Muslim groups in the Middle East while cutting ties to radically Conservative groups, and slowly winning others to "the dark side," and setting off a ripple effect may be the only real thing that can be done to get rid of groups like ISIS.

 

[YmirGF]

It's the idea that fringe/outsider groups become more cooperative if they are allowed to participate in the system. I'm not suggesting we give a voice to groups like ISIS, but we can't ignore the fact the Western governments, especially America, play a very active role in creating, fueling, and sustaining anti-American/Western sentiments, and the ability to fight back against America/West is a big reason many join groups like ISIS (or to fight against other local regimes, forming alliances of convenience and opportunity rather than principle and mutually shared ideology).
Clearly the problem is going to take time and small steps to fix, and fighting has proven to only make things much, much worse. Supporting more Liberal Muslim groups in the Middle East while cutting ties to radically Conservative groups, and slowly winning others to "the dark side," and setting off a ripple effect may be the only real thing that can be done to get rid of groups like ISIS.

Oddly, that is exactly what they tried in Egypt. That little experiment went swimmingly.

 

[LuisDantas]

Limo,

Let me try again to clear something up. The ONLY thing we're talking about is getting people to change their minds. When Luis talks about ending Islam, the ONLY thing he means is for Muslims to see Islam more clearly and understand that it is a bad set of ideas that they should walk away from. That's it! No violence. Just a changing of minds.

To be fair, there is a bit more to it.

Islam, or at least a very significant, active and determined segment of it, expects everyone to eventually convert to it and at least sometimes complains when majorities or significant minorities of Muslims are not given political power and religious privileges.

So-called "western thinking" expects people to have a voice and to promote changes, and that can't happen under Sharia Law and other Islamic expectations.

There is a fundamental, irreconciliable clash between the two sets of expectations. I want to underscore that clash and spread its awareness so that it can be deal with as soon and as painlessly as possible.

No one benefits from hoping in vain either for Islam to be an accomodating, non-supremacist religion or for representative republics to be willing to become full theocracies.

 

[LuisDantas]

It's the idea that fringe/outsider groups become more cooperative if they are allowed to participate in the system. I'm not suggesting we give a voice to groups like ISIS, but we can't ignore the fact the Western governments, especially America, play a very active role in creating, fueling, and sustaining anti-American/Western sentiments, and the ability to fight back against America/West is a big reason many join groups like ISIS (or to fight against other local regimes, forming alliances of convenience and opportunity rather than principle and mutually shared ideology).
Clearly the problem is going to take time and small steps to fix, and fighting has proven to only make things much, much worse. Supporting more Liberal Muslim groups in the Middle East while cutting ties to radically Conservative groups, and slowly winning others to "the dark side," and setting off a ripple effect may be the only real thing that can be done to get rid of groups like ISIS.

While that makes sense on paper, even "moderate" Muslim groups end up having too little room to maneuver in practice.

There are plenty of reasonable, well-meaning Muslims, of course. Literally hundreds of millions if not a full billion of them. But they end up having to fear for their lives to such an extent that there is an actual doctrine ("Taqiya") explaining how and when Muslims may lie about their beliefs in order to protect themselves (mainly from other Muslims).

Things get really difficult when so many people feel so strongly about claiming divine favor.

 

[Notanumber]

So very true!

 

[Yerda]

I don't believe anyone should be forced to live under Sharia law. We can rule it out as a sane means of ordering society right of the bat.

 

[Shad]

Think of inheritance when both a son AND a daughter are involved. Under Sharia, isn't it likely that the daughter is going to get a smaller share of the inheritance than the son?

So what? I knew about that before I made my comment. Your comment implies you want to provide the state the right and power to dictate which religious views are "fair" and which should be invalid due to discrimination within. Islam isn't the only religion that can be attacked in this manner. Christianity can be attacked as well. Religions can be attack on other cases such as those that endorse the "homemaker" view as sexist.

Again I do not want the state to have such a level of power over religion in general.

 

[Bird123]

Separation of church and state is the only way to allow total freedom for all.