Should Sharia Law be forbidden in Non-Muslim (Western) countries?

[LuisDantas]

What does it mean ?
Why don't you give a clear answer ?

I gave you a clear answer, but you won't accept it. Perhaps because you don't see the contradiction in the model you propose.

It can't fairly be a "perfect" world if the distinction between Muslim "countries" and non-Muslim ones is at all meaningful. You might as well ask me if I would accept a square circle.

And no, it is not possible, or even conceivable, that a perfect world would have no need for such a distinction because everyone would embrace Islam. It is much too flawed a doctrine for that to be even remotely possible.

 

[Limo]

I gave you a clear answer, but you won't accept it. Perhaps because you don't see the contradiction in the model you propose.

It can't fairly be a "perfect" world if the distinction between Muslim "countries" and non-Muslim ones is at all meaningful.

I need a clear to the level not to blame of misunderstanding.

No problem I'll repeat whatever you're saying, You don't accept Muslim countries in the Perfect World to apply Sharia in their counties even they stop any hostile act on western world.

Now, Let us forget about perfect world. Who said there was/is/will be perfect world

What about the real world ? What about today ? What about 16-October-2016 ?
Do you accept Muslims in Muslim countries to apply Sharia and radical Islamic groups will disappear and no hostile act on western world ?

 

[LuisDantas]

I need a clear to the level not to blame of misunderstanding.

No problem I'll repeat whatever you're saying, You don't accept Muslim countries in the Perfect World to apply Sharia in their counties even they stop any hostile act on western world.

Yes. That is not good enough, among other reasons because it is not sustainable. National distinctions are too fictinal. We all need mutual understanding and acceptance.

Now, Let us forget about perfect world. Who said there was/is/will be perfect world

Fair enough.

What about the real world ? What about today ? What about 16-October-2016 ?
Do you accept Muslims in Muslim countries to apply Sharia and radical Islamic groups will disappear and no hostile act on western world ?

That, unfortunately for us all, is still too unrealistic an expectation.

Islamic countries are much too troubled, in no small measure because they are Islamic. They will not reach the level of self-reliance and sustainability that would allow them to let go of the need for external enemies.

Nor does the Qur'an help much in that regard, either. It encourages the perception of external enemies far too often.

 

[Limo]

Yes. That is not good enough, among other reasons because it is not sustainable. National distinctions are too fictinal. We all need mutual understanding and acceptance.



Fair enough.


That, unfortunately for us all, is still too unrealistic an expectation.

Islamic countries are much too troubled, in no small measure because they are Islamic. They will not reach the level of self-reliance and sustainability that would allow them to let go of the need for external enemies.

Nor does the Qur'an help much in that regard, either. It encourages the perception of external enemies far too often.

I didn't ask about what Quran says, I didn't ask about troubles or anything

I'm asking simple question , I encourage you to say what you really believe in.
It's a whole package questions
It's one sale
+Shariah in Muslim countis
- Radical groups
- hostile acts on western countries


What about the real world ? What about today ? What about 16-October-2016 ?
Do you accept Muslims in Muslim countries to apply Sharia and radical Islamic groups will disappear and no hostile act on western world ?

 

[icehorse]

Why "western thinking" should be applied on Muslims ?
Why you need to dominate the "western thinking" ?

We've our own culture, values, and religion.

What example do you've you're promoting to Islamic world ?

Hey Limo,

I want to make sure I understand this post... are you saying that Islam has one culture and one set of values? If so, that's very interesting, because I've been told by many Muslims that Islam is a part of many different cultures and many different sets of values.

 

[LuisDantas]

I didn't ask about what Quran says, I didn't ask about troubles or anything

I'm asking simple question , I encourage you to say what you really believe in.

Islam is a hopelessly flawed set of beliefs that everyone will be better off without.

Because it teaches people to mistrust non-Muslims and to be blindly supportive of Muslims to the point of voluntary self-delusion (such as claiming that ISIS are not Muslims), non-Muslims have the right and quite possibly the moral duty to decisively deny them any concessions when it comes to political control and privileges, up to and including flat out refusal of any religious exceptions or rules.

It must be made clear that Islam is not a proper basis for political rule and will never be, mostly because it insists on being based on the presumed perfection of theistic scripture. No person - "western", Muslim or anyone else - should ever feel ashamed or reluctant to say out aloud that no political rule shoud make allowances for the will of the God of the Qur'an, mainly because such allowances both logically and according to historical lessons will cause strife, fanaticism, and unnecessary suffering for Muslim and non-Muslim alike.

It's a whole package questions
It's one sale
+Shariah in Muslim countis
- Radical groups
- hostile acts on western countries


What about the real world ? What about today ? What about 16-October-2016 ?
Do you accept Muslims in Muslim countries to apply Sharia and radical Islamic groups will disappear and no hostile act on western world ?

I do not accept even taking national boundaries too seriously, so no. Your scenario is both unrealistic and unsuitable even as an idealized goal.

No peace, let alone perfection, will ever come from a world that takes national frontiers very seriously.

 

[Limo]

Islam is a hopelessly flawed set of beliefs that everyone will be better off without.

Because it teaches people to mistrust non-Muslims and to be blindly supportive of Muslims to the point of voluntary self-delusion (such as claiming that ISIS are not Muslims), non-Muslims have the right and quite possibly the moral duty to decisively deny them any concessions when it comes to political control and privileges, up to and including flat out refusal of any religious exceptions or rules.

It must be made clear that Islam is not a proper basis for political rule and will never be, mostly because it insists on being based on the presumed perfection of theistic scripture. No person - "western", Muslim or anyone else - should ever feel ashamed or reluctant to say out aloud that no political rule shoud make allowances for the will of the God of the Qur'an, mainly because such allowances both logically and according to historical lessons will cause strife, fanaticism, and unnecessary suffering for Muslim and non-Muslim alike.




I do not accept even taking national boundaries too seriously, so no. Your scenario is both unrealistic and unsuitable even as an idealized goal.

No peace, let alone perfection, will ever come from a world that takes national frontiers very seriously.

Your thoughts are clear. You'nt accepting to see Islam in remote peaceful countries even if it doesn't have any influence

These thoughts are not odd or something new
These are extreme fundamentalism thoughts
When Hitler decided to finish Judaism, he burnet the books and asked Jews to change
These thoughts are the main reason of what the world is in now
You're doing many things like for example supporting tyrants governments in Middle East and lately military cope by Sisi of Egypt
This is the main reason of existence of uslamic radical groups

If you keep going, I assure to you that you'll loose.
Youll loose your fight against Islam and will loose fight against radical groups as well

 

[Limo]

Hey Limo,

I want to make sure I understand this post... are you saying that Islam has one culture and one set of values? If so, that's very interesting, because I've been told by many Muslims that Islam is a part of many different cultures and many different sets of values.

Islam is a way of life.
Has its own culture
Has its own complete and comphensife values. If it accepts other values it must not contradicts any Islamic values

 

[LuisDantas]

Your thoughts are clear. You'nt accepting to see Islam in remote peaceful countries even if it doesn't have any influence

Sort of true, but this must be interpreted and understood.

These thoughts are not odd or something new

I would hope not.

These are extreme fundamentalism thoughts

Wrong.

When Hitler decided to finish Judaism, he burnet the books and asked Jews to change

... with the enthusiastic support of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini

To this day Islam refuses to properly acknowledge that. As it refuses to acknowledge the genocide of the Armenians. And its role on the existence of ISIS and in the general instability of the Middle East.

Is it any wonder, or at all wrong, that many want to discourage its expansion?

These thoughts are the main reason of what the world is in now

Please elaborate.

You're doing many things like for example supporting tyrants governments in Middle East and lately military cope by Sisi of Egypt

I support no tyrants and military action anywhere. Ever.

This is the main reason of existence of uslamic radical groups

Oh, but is it?

One can't help but notice that while would-be tyrants exist pretty much everywhere, they seem to be remarkably frequent and succesful in Muslim communities.

That might even look like an unfortunate accident, until one begins to make notice of how beligerent the message of the Qur'an is and how it consistently teaches people to submit to authority, including in the military sense, with little encouragement of personal reflection to speak of.

If you keep going, I assure to you that you'll loose.
Youll loose your fight against Islam and will loose fight against radical groups as well

Whatever the odds are, they do not matter. What is right and constructive must be attempted.

 

[icehorse]

Islam is a way of life.
Has its own culture
Has its own complete and comphensife values. If it accepts other values it must not contradicts any Islamic values

Can you list some of Islam's most important values?

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

I think it should be allowed and even encouraged

 

[Notanumber]

 

[Shad]

Sorry that you made that inference, it's not correct.

I think my inference is spot on as you want the state to dictate what is legal and illegal in regards to religious views.

I want our legal system to be based on shared values, not the conflicting values of the various religious tribes that are common today.

This will never happens unless society becomes homogenized. Given that immigration of people from different cultures is legal they will only diversify society rather than make it uniform. Even the values we seem to share are not really shared as the source of these values are different. Our values may align but this does not mean shared at all.

In other words, because religion seem to be fundamentally divisive, I believe in the separation of church and state.

This policy was not developed to protect diversity but to prevent rival religious groups that used violence and state power from gaining it again. Diversity was a result never intended.

And I battle against ANY religion that attempts to undermine that separation. In fact I just started a separate thread today questioning other religious folk's arguments for "religious freedoms".

Religions is an ambiguous term to use here as religion is an idea that has no power, no body, it can do nothing without it's believers. Do you mean religious institutions or religious people? Both maybe?

With all that said, I have to say that I'm continually amused by the "well other institutions are bad too" argument.

I never used such an argument. I pointed out that if we grant the state the power to dictate which views within Islam are acceptable we can not just stop with Islam but must look at all religions. I doubt many would be willing to accept their own religion being put under the microscope as easily as a religion from a different group.


Why make it illegal when it is already irrelevant to the justice system,?

 

[JakofHearts]

• Drinkers and gamblers are to be whipped
• Husbands can beat their wives
• An injured plaintiff can exact legal revenge; literally an eye for an eye
• A thief must have a hand or foot cut off
• Homosexuals must be executed
• Unmarried fornicators are to be whipped
• Adulterers are to be stoned to death
• Death for both Muslim an non-Muslim critics of Mohammad, the Qur'an, and even Sharia itself
• Apostates (atheists, agnostics) to be killed

If we want barbarism to "culturally enrich" us then by all means.

Source: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia_law

 

[Limo]

Can you list some of Islam's most important values?

Following are the top Islamic values from Quran

• Quran 17:22 There is no god but Allah " Set not up with Allah any other ilah (god), (O man)! (This verse is addressed to Prophet Muhammad SAW , but its implication is general to all mankind), or you will sit down reproved, forsaken (in the Hell-fire)."
• Quran 17:23-24 Be dutiful with parents "And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him. And that you be dutiful to your parents. If one of them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect, nor shout at them but address them in terms of honour.And lower unto them the wing of submission and humility through mercy, and say: "My Lord! Bestow on them Your Mercy as they did bring me up when I was small.""
• Quran 17:26 give kindred and poor their RIGHT and don't spendthrift "
  And give to the kindred his due and to the Miskin (poor) and to the wayfarer. But spend not wastefully (your wealth) in the manner of a spendthrift .
• Quran 17:32 No Adultary "And come not near to the unlawful sexual intercourse. Verily, it is a Fahishah [i.e. anything that transgresses its limits (a great sin)], and an evil way (that leads one to Hell unless Allah forgives him)."
• Quran 17:33 don't kill "And do not kill anyone which Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause."
• Quran 17:34 take care of orphan property, take care of covenants "
  And come not near to the orphan's property except to improve it, until he attains the age of full strength. And fulfil (every) covenant. Verily! the covenant, will be questioned about."
• Quran 17:35 don't cheat in measures "
  And give full measure when you measure, and weigh with a balance that is straight. That is good (advantageous) and better in the end."
• Quran 17:36 you're responsible about your eyes and your heart
  And follow not (O man i.e., say not, or do not or witness not, etc.) that of which you have no knowledge (e.g. one's saying: "I have seen," while in fact he has not seen, or "I have heard," while he has not heard). Verily! The hearing, and the sight, and the heart, of each of those you will be questioned (by Allah).
• Quran 17:37 don't be conceit and arrogance "
  And walk not on the earth with conceit and arrogance. Verily, you can neither rend nor penetrate the earth, nor can you attain a stature like the mountains in height.

Regards

 

[Notanumber]

 

[LuisDantas]

@Limo , I find it interesting that you consider the idea that there is only one God a value.

Would you feel inclined to elaborate on why?

 

[LuisDantas]

@Notanumber , I owe you one for presenting me to Pat Condell. He is a bit too nationalist for my tastes, but also a breath of much-needed fresh air.

This speech, for instance, is golden:

 

[Notanumber]

@Notanumber , I owe you one for presenting me to Pat Condell. He is a bit too nationalist for my tastes, but also a breath of much-needed fresh air.

This speech, for instance, is golden:

That was the next one that I had lined up for posting.

I like how he makes his very valid points in an entertaining way.

I think I have watched most of his videos now, but I can watch them more than once.

Anyway, you are welcome, enjoy!

 

[Limo]

Sort of true, but this must be interpreted and understood.


I would hope not.


Wrong.


... with the enthusiastic support of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini

To this day Islam refuses to properly acknowledge that. As it refuses to acknowledge the genocide of the Armenians. And its role on the existence of ISIS and in the general instability of the Middle East.

Is it any wonder, or at all wrong, that many want to discourage its expansion?


Please elaborate.



I support no tyrants and military action anywhere. Ever.


Oh, but is it?

One can't help but notice that while would-be tyrants exist pretty much everywhere, they seem to be remarkably frequent and succesful in Muslim communities.

That might even look like an unfortunate accident, until one begins to make notice of how beligerent the message of the Qur'an is and how it consistently teaches people to submit to authority, including in the military sense, with little encouragement of personal reflection to speak of.



Whatever the odds are, they do not matter. What is right and constructive must be attempted.

You and all people the same belief are the source of all whatever issues we've.
You think you chose for people better than themselves.
You do everything bad by supporting tyrants by weapons and money just to keep Islam away from governments.

You're asking why most of tyrants are in Muslim countries ?
Because of people like you.
You're behind all I mean all military copes since 70 years.

But you know something?
You're losing and the first lost was in Turkey

Just stay away from Muslim countries and everything will be perfect