Should socialized health care deny/delay treatment to smokers and the obese?

[Valjean]

Au contraire..Healthful food is cheaper, and cooking isn't that onerous.
How much do potato chips/crisps cost per pound or kilo? How much does sack of potatoes cost? QED.

I currently have a 16 quart stock pot of stew in the fridge. Didn't take much longer to make than a single serving would have, but it's going to last me two weeks. I'm also currently cooking some rice to have with it, or, rather, my rice maker is. Me, I'm bloviating on RF.

 

[Perditus]

Au contraire..Healthful food is cheaper

Not where I live. I'm in the American Midwest. Produce, meat, dairy, and organic and other alternative foods are very expensive with the exception of bananas and potatoes.

 

[Valjean]

OK, I'm looking at this weeks add from Sprouts Market. Flyers like this appear in my mailbox every Wednesday.
Peaches and grapes. $.77/lb
Apples, tomatoes and onions. $.88/lb.
Mini watermelons. $.98 each

Dried beans, rice, &c typically can be found for < $1./lb
Just yesterday I bought a 25lb sack of organic lentils for $17 -- though, granted, it was on sale.

More fliers:
Albertson's supermarkets:
Sweet corn. 6 for a dollar

Smith's supermarkets:
$.50 canned vegetables (not exactly health food, but not quite junk food either).
Peanut butter $1./lb
I see they have tuna at $.59./can as well but, as a veggie I'm not really familiar with meat prices.

Anyway. we healthy cheapskates aren't confined to bananas and potatoes. Healthful eating is cheap.

<<Now what am I going to do with 25lbs of lentils...???>>

 

[Glaurung]

We don't really have much of a choice when it comes to physical activity, as we are expected to be sedentary for school and work. I think it is safe to say that at no other time in our species history have we done so much sitting, which is a social mandate despite it being against our biological nature and terribly unhealthy.

You don't actually need all that much exercise to stay in reasonable health. Ten to fifteen minutes on a treadmill before and after work, plus some push-ups every second day or even getting in the habit of an evening stroll isn't unreasonably demanding. The whole "I just don't have time" argument is nonsense. If you have time to surf YouTube, you have time to go for a stroll.

 

[Brickjectivity]

No, I don't think that treatment 'Should' be denied or delayed. I understand if it is delayed but don't think that it should be. I don't think its a positive step no.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, I believe in a Jesus who helps those who help themselves.

You believe in a messiah that's irrelevant and redundant?

 

[Thanda]

You believe in a messiah that's irrelevant and redundant?

No, I believe in exactly what I said I believe in. Tell me if it is too hard to comprehend and I will gladly explain.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, I believe in exactly what I said I believe in. Tell me if it is too hard to comprehend and I will gladly explain.

You said "I believe in a Jesus who helps those who help themselves." Someone who doesn't help other people until they've already been helped (by themselves or others) is irrelevant and redundant.

The Jesus you describe is like the person who says "oh - can I help with the dishes?" as you're finishing washing the last pot.

 

[Perditus]

OK, I'm looking at this weeks add from Sprouts Market. Flyers like this appear in my mailbox every Wednesday.
Peaches and grapes. $.77/lb
Apples, tomatoes and onions. $.88/lb.
Mini watermelons. $.98 each

Dried beans, rice, &c typically can be found for < $1./lb
Just yesterday I bought a 25lb sack of organic lentils for $17 -- though, granted, it was on sale.

More fliers:
Albertson's supermarkets:
Sweet corn. 6 for a dollar

Smith's supermarkets:
$.50 canned vegetables (not exactly health food, but not quite junk food either).
Peanut butter $1./lb
I see they have tuna at $.59./can as well but, as a veggie I'm not really familiar with meat prices.

Anyway. we healthy cheapskates aren't confined to bananas and potatoes. Healthful eating is cheap.

<<Now what am I going to do with 25lbs of lentils...???>>

The process in my area are nowhere near as low as what you've posted.

I'm sorry. That's the truth here. Three Colorado Yellow Peaches cost me $7 this past week. I don't consider that cheap.

 

[Thanda]

You said "I believe in a Jesus who helps those who help themselves." Someone who doesn't help other people until they've already been helped (by themselves or others) is irrelevant and redundant.

The Jesus you describe is like the person who says "oh - can I help with the dishes?" as you're finishing washing the last pot.

If you really don't understand that principle then unfortunately I must question your intelligence. Suppose I am an investor. Who do you suppose I will likely give my money to? Some who is sitting on their backs side with a good idea? Or someone with a good idea who has already drawn up a business plan, made efforts to start the business and is now looking for extra cash to expand his business to new markets?

The answer is obviously the latter. Hence, as an investor, I am likely to help those who are helping themselves. For just because someone is helping themselves it does not mean they will be able to achieve their goals all on their own. And that is where God comes in. Those who desire eternal life, and who work to improve themselves and who seek to turn away from evil, those are they who God helps. Those are they who God saves.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The whole "I just don't have time" argument is nonsense.

That was not a part of my argument.

You don't actually need all that much exercise to stay in reasonable health. Ten to fifteen minutes on a treadmill before and after work, plus some push-ups every second day or even getting in the habit of an evening stroll isn't unreasonably demanding.

Sitting all day, on the drive(s) to and from, at work and school, at home on a tv or computer, is not good for the human being. And doing a few minutes on the treadmill before/after work/school is better than nothing, but it still means you're sitting all day. That's just not something we're supposed to do, and it tends to take its toll in physical and mental health.

The answer is obviously the latter. Hence, as an investor, I am likely to help those who are helping themselves.

Jesus isn't an investor, and he probably hates people getting a ton of money from doing it because they have a ton of money to put into it.

Those who desire eternal life, and who work to improve themselves and who seek to turn away from evil, those are they who God helps. Those are they who God saves.

Maybe we read different Bibles, because I am left with the impression that "not sinning" was a goal but it was pretty low on the list because Jesus knew that even his followers would fail, but he encouraged them to try their hardest, and he was way more concerned with his followers being humble, meek, modest, and taking care of the poor and that specifically a rich man just is not going to get into Heaven.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Have you noticed that most of the healthiest foods are absurdly expensive?

I spend a small fortune on fruits and nuts and soy milk.

When I was living on my own, the only way I was able to do it was that I received food stamps at the time, and I lived alone with no other mouth to feed. If I had to support someone I could have made it stretch, but with a family it would have been impossible and back to dollar frozen pizzas, cheap spaghetti with cheap sauce, frozen TV dinners, and other terrible foods that entire meals for less than a dollar which means affordable eating. And it was having to eat that way that lead me to apply for food stamps in the first place, and I went from eating faux food to healthy, filling meals that were entirely cooked at home and made with whole foods and ingredients, and none of the dangerous chemicals found in most cheap foods. Eating better even had me loosing weight without having to increase my exercise, and I was generally feeling better and my health was better. I was also able to drink cows milk then, but since I have seemingly developed a lactose intolerance, milk is way more expensive now since I can't buy a gallon of cow's milk to drink or use with my cereal, and it doesn't have a long enough shelf life to use it for cooking and baking.

 

[Perditus]

When I was living on my own, the only way I was able to do it was that I received food stamps at the time, and I lived alone with no other mouth to feed. If I had to support someone I could have made it stretch, but with a family it would have been impossible and back to dollar frozen pizzas, cheap spaghetti with cheap sauce, frozen TV dinners, and other terrible foods that entire meals for less than a dollar which means affordable eating. And it was having to eat that way that lead me to apply for food stamps in the first place, and I went from eating faux food to healthy, filling meals that were entirely cooked at home and made with whole foods and ingredients, and none of the dangerous chemicals found in most cheap foods. Eating better even had me loosing weight without having to increase my exercise, and I was generally feeling better and my health was better. I was also able to drink cows milk then, but since I have seemingly developed a lactose intolerance, milk is way more expensive now since I can't buy a gallon of cow's milk to drink or use with my cereal, and it doesn't have a long enough shelf life to use it for cooking and baking.

I knew I wasn't imagining things.

 

[Lyndon]

The artificial milk like almond milk last way longer than cows milk, we had some in the fridge for a year and a friend was visiting and I accidentally thought she had just bought it and used it on my cereal, it had seperated some but didn't taste bad at all!!

 

[Perditus]

The artificial milk like almond milk last way longer than cows milk, we had some in the fridge for a year and a friend was visiting and I accidentally thought she had just bought it and used it on my cereal, it had seperated some but didn't taste bad at all!!

You made me gag.

 

[Thanda]

Jesus isn't an investor, and he probably hates people getting a ton of money from doing it because they have a ton of money to put into it.

This doesn't make sense. Of course Jesus is an investor. He invests in human beings. And his reward is their salvation.

Maybe we read different Bibles, because I am left with the impression that "not sinning" was a goal but it was pretty low on the list because Jesus knew that even his followers would fail, but he encouraged them to try their hardest, and he was way more concerned with his followers being humble, meek, modest, and taking care of the poor and that specifically a rich man just is not going to get into Heaven.

I am amazed that, of all the things Jesus said, what you got from it was that not sinning is not important and that rich people are not going to get into heaven. You say we read different bibles but those assertions make it suspicious whether you actually read the bible at all.

Jesus would not send someone to hell or to heaven based on the size of their paycheck. He would be an evil man if he did so.

As for the importance of being humble, meek and modest, you are correct. Those teachings are found in the Sermon on the mount. It was the same sermon in which he said (speaking of the Law or the commandments):

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.​

It is also the same sermon in which he extended the law against adultery wherein he claimed it was a sin to even have lustful desires toward someone that is not your spouse. Even being angry with someone was enough to prevent someone from entering heaven. It is also the same sermon that ends the first part with these words:

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

Now for someone for whom not sinning was a low priority he certainly had a funny way of conveying that message.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This doesn't make sense. Of course Jesus is an investor. He invests in human beings. And his reward is their salvation.

He's not investing in them. All he asks for is faith and repentance.

I am amazed that, of all the things Jesus said, what you got from it was that not sinning is not important and that rich people are not going to get into heaven.

I am amazed that you got that from what I posted.

Jesus would not send someone to hell or to heaven based on the size of their paycheck.

He did specifically state that getting a rich man into Heaven is like getting a camel through the eye of a needle - something that is impossible. It's not the size of the paycheck that counts, it's what someone does with those paychecks, and clearly Jesus is very strongly against hoarding and gaining in material wealth.

 

[Thanda]

He's not investing in them. All he asks for is faith and repentance.

He is. Just because he doesn't use money doesn't mean he is not investing.

I am amazed that you got that from what I posted.

That is not all I got of course - the other part's of what I got you have conveniently left out of your reply

He did specifically state that getting a rich man into Heaven is like getting a camel through the eye of a needle - something that is impossible. It's not the size of the paycheck that counts, it's what someone does with those paychecks, and clearly Jesus is very strongly against hoarding and gaining in material wealth.

Hoarding yes, gaining no. Abraham and Job were both rich men and God as well as Jesus didn't seem to have a problem with them. Furthermore right after saying the words you are referring to, the following is recorded:

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.​

This directly contradict your claim that Jesus said rich people can't go to Heaven.

 

[Twilight Hue]

In light of the absoultly insane and heartless price gouging by big pharma on the most needy and dependent people in the U.S. insurance companies have now become virtual wellsprings of literally endless revenue by mandate, with crushing deductibles that can literally destroy and rip out a lifetime of savings leaving people penniless and further dependent upon both, an economic and healthcare hell.

 

[Willamena]

Why give someone something they don't want. Why give someone health when they clearly don't want it?

How do you figure they don't want it?