Should socialized health care deny/delay treatment to smokers and the obese?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Explain common decency and the link between using scarce resources to assist those who are not assisting themselves?

If it makes you feel better, smokers and the obese effectively get punished anyway: doctors consider the risk versus reward of any intervention. If a patient is healthy, he can tolerate more extreme surgery or other interventions and get more benefit out of it. When a patient's health is compromised by, say, a lifetime of smoking, surgery will have higher associated risk, so the doctor will be more reluctant to do it.

So don't worry: you already have your pound of flesh from the "sinners" you're judging.

 

[Thanda]

You, my friend don't know the Jesus I do, of course Jesus would heal someone with lung cancer, he probably did, they did have lung cancer in Palestine, you know.

Read what I wrote carefully - I have not argued that Jesus wouldn't heal someone of lung cancer.

 

[Thanda]

Purposely withholding healthcare as a punishment is immoral. Also it punishes not only the smoker but their family and friends who are innocent.

No operation, can't work, lose house, kids life ruined, etc.

Who said anything about punishing anyone? And if the innocent family and friends are adversely affected, who is to blame. The people who refused to use their tax money on the health of some who didn't care about his health, or the person who didn't care about his own health?

 

[Thanda]

If it makes you feel better, smokers and the obese effectively get punished anyway: doctors consider the risk versus reward of any intervention. If a patient is healthy, he can tolerate more extreme surgery or other interventions and get more benefit out of it. When a patient's health is compromised by, say, a lifetime of smoking, surgery will have higher associated risk, so the doctor will be more reluctant to do it.

So don't worry: you already have your pound of flesh from the "sinners" you're judging.

Please stop including the obese in this discussion - my very first post in this thread acknowledged the complexity of obesity and the fact that our societies largely encourage unhealthy lifestyles that often lead the predicament.

Smoking is a different matter altogether.

 

[Lyndon]

Judge not, that ye be not judged. Someone said that, makes sense to me.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Please stop including the obese in this discussion - my very first post in this thread acknowledged the complexity of obesity and the fact that our societies largely encourage unhealthy lifestyles that often lead the predicament.

Smoking is a different matter altogether.

Fair enough: your judging and uncharitable attitude is only directed toward smokers.

 

[Thanda]

Fair enough: your judging and uncharitable attitude is only directed toward smokers.

And pro-abortionists

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And pro-abortionists

And in either case, they've already been "punished": the smokers by their compromised health that interferes with medical care, and the pro-choicers by having to deal with people like you.

 

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Lyndon; According to you I should be a retard drop out whos not capable of even holding this conversation with you let alone running a business raising kids or being a RESPONSIBLE or CONSCIENTIOUS adult at all..According to you - because I smoke hash I should be a "parasite" who needs you decent Folk to take care of me - right..??..Clearly you are wrong on all counts there...

As you can see my mind works fine and Iam often fully motivated as my long posts will attest - no problems with thinking cognition or motivation then..lol...to the point that as said, I run my own business and have a family to boot - was even a single parent for a long long time - and even though the child protection social services looked in and investigated for a while, still, THEY found no problem with my smoking habits at all and felt perfectly comfortable leaving my two young children in my sole custody...Go figure...Apparantly this stoner here with zero productivity and nothing but a parasite according to you, was deemed acceptable by those "authorities" that get to decide our welfare and they agreed to let this parasite stoner be a lone single unsupervised parent - apparantly smoking hash didnt stop me at all from fullfilling MY obligations and duties - and indeed I will tell you directly - it actually helped a great deal if anything..

I will tell you directly from VAST experiences from multiple sources there is no actual thing as any kind of "manic depressive illness" - its all self delusion, trust me Im surrounded by such people daily and see their truths intimately up close and personal - all "depressive illness" really is, essentially, is LIFE itself Im afraid - pulling us too and fro as we lie and delude ourselves - strip it all away and admit that truth finally though, whatever it was that we hid from ourself to begin with, and all those "depressive illnesses" just disappear and cease to be a problem at all..

Above all things as my Mate said - KNOW THY SELF - become FULLY KNOWN - and to be honest - hash is the perfect tool for that - no hiding or deluding the Self when you are stoned on marijuana - every truth you hold will be stripped bare and looked at in a naked way..THIS is what causes the problems for most - NOT the hash itself - but the truth of the things it personally reveals - things once hidden now revealed....These inner truths - inner demons - are the REAL cause of all those "depressive illnesses" - NOT the hash - that just stripped back the lies we told oursrlves to begin with.....If being sober means having a clear and focused mind - then again hash is the perfect tool for that - its not the hash that causes the problems - they already existed buried deep within - the hash is just the tool that allowed those secrets to surface again...It will indeed give you back your whole ENTIRE mind again, as opposed to those highly limiting self enclosed circling depressive type modes that are normal every day modes in the mind for most..

If we want such depressive illnesses to TRULY stop ,the only feasable answer is to quit deluding and lying to the Self to begin with - and that starts by quit listening to those who profess to "lead" you and DEFINE you - such as when they defined you as first "mentally ill" or when they defined later you as "mentally normal" - as He said KNOW THY SELF - become fully known - this will indeed allow you to DEFINE your Self to - take responsibility for and thereby CREATE the Self in truth - when we do that there will be no such thing as "depressive illness"

 

[Thanda]

And in either case, they've already been "punished": the smokers by their compromised health that interferes with medical care, and the pro-choicers by having to deal with people like you.

Indeed, I hope to continue to be a great bane to them for as long as they or I live.

 

[Augustus]

Who said anything about punishing anyone? And if the innocent family and friends are adversely affected, who is to blame. The people who refused to use their tax money on the health of some who didn't care about his health, or the person who didn't care about his own health?

Withholding treatment = punishment for behaviour.

Those who refuse to that the person are to blame for refusing to treat the person. Those who choose to punish the children of smokers out of selfishness lack common decency imo.

Not to mention smoker pay tax on cigarettes that coves their addition costs and they die sooner so burden the state less from pensions, healthcare, etc

Universal healthcare means universal and should be something that every civilised society has. This is what you pay for, not just smokers or obese people. I live somewhere that children are often left to die if their parent have no money to pay the hospital and find the idea that some people are more worthy of healthcare than others disgraceful. You don't just stand by and let people die if you can help it.

Also, if all corporations paid their fair share of tax then there would be no problem funding the bills, but it's just so much easier to blame the 'parasitic poor'.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Indeed, I hope to continue to be a great bane to them for as long as they or I live.

And if you have it your way, at least for the smokers, "as long as they live" will be as short and pain-filled as possible.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not to mention smoker pay tax on cigarettes that coves their addition costs and they die sooner so burden the state less from pensions, healthcare, etc

I generally agree with what you're saying except this part. Taxes on cigarettes are more about deterring new smokers and encouraging current smokers to quit than they are about getting smokers to pre-pay for their health care.

 

[Lyndon]

Hi Folks..

Lyndon; According to you I should be a retard drop out whos not capable of even holding this conversation with you let alone running a business raising kids or being a RESPONSIBLE or CONSCIENTIOUS adult at all..According to you - because I smoke hash I should be a "parasite" who needs you decent Folk to take care of me - right..??..Clearly you are wrong on all counts there...

As you can see my mind works fine and Iam often fully motivated as my long posts will attest - no problems with thinking cognition or motivation then..lol...to the point that as said, I run my own business and have a family to boot - was even a single parent for a long long time - and even though the child protection social services looked in and investigated for a while, still, THEY found no problem with my smoking habits at all and felt perfectly comfortable leaving my two young children in my sole custody...Go figure...Apparantly this stoner here with zero productivity and nothing but a parasite according to you, was deemed acceptable by those "authorities" that get to decide our welfare and they agreed to let this parasite stoner be a lone single unsupervised parent - apparantly smoking hash didnt stop me at all from fullfilling MY obligations and duties - and indeed I will tell you directly - it actually helped a great deal if anything..

I will tell you directly from VAST experiences from multiple sources there is no actual thing as any kind of "manic depressive illness" - its all self delusion, trust me Im surrounded by such people daily and see their truths intimately up close and personal - all "depressive illness" really is, essentially, is LIFE itself Im afraid - pulling us too and fro as we lie and delude ourselves - strip it all away and admit that truth finally though, whatever it was that we hid from ourself to begin with, and all those "depressive illnesses" just disappear and cease to be a problem at all..

Above all things as my Mate said - KNOW THY SELF - become FULLY KNOWN - and to be honest - hash is the perfect tool for that - no hiding or deluding the Self when you are stoned on marijuana - every truth you hold will be stripped bare and looked at in a naked way..THIS is what causes the problems for most - NOT the hash itself - but the truth of the things it personally reveals - things once hidden now revealed....These inner truths - inner demons - are the REAL cause of all those "depressive illnesses" - NOT the hash - that just stripped back the lies we told oursrlves to begin with.....If being sober means having a clear and focused mind - then again hash is the perfect tool for that - its not the hash that causes the problems - they already existed buried deep within - the hash is just the tool that allowed those secrets to surface again...It will indeed give you back your whole ENTIRE mind again, as opposed to those highly limiting self enclosed circling depressive type modes that are normal every day modes in the mind for most..

If we want such depressive illnesses to TRULY stop ,the only feasable answer is to quit deluding and lying to the Self to begin with - and that starts by quit listening to those who profess to "lead" you and DEFINE you - such as when they defined you as first "mentally ill" or when they defined later you as "mentally normal" - as He said KNOW THY SELF - become fully known - this will indeed allow you to DEFINE your Self to - take responsibility for and thereby CREATE the Self in truth - when we do that there will be no such thing as "depressive illness"

Honestly going from you comments only, they appear delusional about mental illness, I don't know what you're smoking but its not contributing to making rational, easy to understand comments on this forum, I suggest you'd make a lot more sense if you sobered up or cut back on your smoking.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Judge not, that ye be not judged. Someone said that, makes sense to me.

Resources are always limited in public health care systems, so judgements invariably have to be made.

And while people with unhealthy life styles usually die younger, they can cost a lot in treatment along the way because of the progressive health problems they accumulate.

 

[McBell]

Judge not, that ye be not judged. Someone said that, makes sense to me.

Makes even more sense when not taken out of context.

 

[Lyndon]

Resources are always limited in public health care systems, so judgements invariably have to be made.

And while people with unhealthy life styles usually die younger, they can cost a lot in treatment along the way because of the progressive health problems they accumulate.

And some smokers can live to 100 with few health problems, and some super healthy people can have horrible cancers etc and require millions in treatment, so what are you proposing, limit how much health care you can have in one lifetime based on fitting guidelines adopted by doctors, complete rubbish, its akin to eugenics, sounds like something Trump would support.

 

[McBell]

It isn't about the health care.
It is about making money.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No, I believe in a Jesus who helps those who help themselves.

Er, that rather defeats the entire point of God's plan of salvation.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The bible does not mention Jesus healing any smoker of lung cancer (for example). And I don't imagine he would. Actions have consequences, right? And we all know smoking has the consequences or decreasing our health, right? And we all have the right to refuse to smoke, right? So at what point do we actually hold people accountable and responsible for their actions? At what point do we allow the natural consequences of people's actions to materialise?

And what is the point of pouring water into a leaking bucket? What is the point of restoring to health, a person who is undermining their own health?

So people should be punished for their behavior by withholding medical care, just so you can feel all high and mighty? This is just disgusting, inhuman and wildly immoral and unethical. Shameful.