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Should teaching eternal hell be a crime?

Should teaching eternal hell be a crime offense?

  • Yes

    Votes: 21 36.2%
  • No

    Votes: 33 56.9%
  • Don't know

    Votes: 4 6.9%

  • Total voters
    58

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Perhaps you can define "emotional abuse" first. How would it be identified in such a case? Is it the fact that the child is scared from it?

Factors involved include the severity and persistence of the scare, of course. In some cases, also how real the source of the scary feelings is perceived as being.


If that's the case every parent who has ever read a scary book/fairy tale, told a ghost story or allowed their child to watch a scary movie would be accused as well.

That is not the case.



My dad let me watch Carrie at a young age (under 12), as well as Fire Starter and People Across the Lake.

Did you consistently cry or lose sleep over it? Did he, or someone other authority figure close to you, ever claim that those tales described real dangers?

If not so, then I don't see how it could be considered abuse, nor how a fair comparison to teachings about Hell could be made.



I would not set foot in our basement for at least 2 yrs after watching that stupid movie. We're my parents "emotionally abusive"?

I'm in no position to tell.



Now, as an adult, I have no lingering ill-effects. Carrie still gives me the creeps though lol

I think when we begin to use 'abuse' so loosely like this it takes away from actual instances of abuse, which is sad.

Yes, it would be sad.
 

Renji

Well-Known Member
Preaching eternal hell has the potential to terribly frighten people. Some of these people are overcome by this fear, and so are terrorized into becoming followers of the cults that preach such evil ideas. Preachers of this evil concept are terrorizing others. They are attacking a person's sense of security. It is one thing to harrass someone in this life with threats of punishment or other forms of mistreatment. But the terror that one could feel if she is confronted by a preacher telling her that she may burn in hell forever can be far worse. Children are particularly vulnerable to such abuse, especially when they are terrorized with this teaching by their parents whom they generally trust. I think teaching hell should be made a criminal offense. It is a form of harrassment of a very intense kind. People should be protected by law from this type of harrassment. The preachers of this terrifying concept should be prosecuted as criminals.
But not all people believe in hell, even some religious organizations. So what's the use of proclaiming it as a criminal offense??
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
But not all people believe in hell, even some religious organizations. So what's the use of proclaiming it as a criminal offense??

Sorry, but I don't understand the logic that you are following.

Some things may need to be forbidden or at least regulated (in this case, not so much stating that hell exists as doing so without regard for the consequences to the emotional well-being of people) simply because they are harmful.

If doing so (or doing so harmfully) is rare in the first place, then so much the better.

Am I missing something?
 

Renji

Well-Known Member
Sorry, but I don't understand the logic that you are following.

Criminal cases, as far as I know are those that are (or can be) harmful in any aspects (physical, emotional, etc). Teaching about hell does not inflict harm to anyone. What makes it harmful is the manner of how it is being taught. E.g, "All of those that are non members of our church will go to hell" and stuff like that. Those things can be managed within the organizations (church) or individuals (parent, children) involved, even without involving the law. Also, if you don't believe in hell, how can that be a form of harassment? Let's say for instance, I grow up not believing in after life then all of a sudden, someone would approach me and say that I should repent or else I'll go to hell, would that make an impact to me considering the fact that I don't believe in it? So what's the use of having it declared as a criminal offense if a lot of people doesn't see it as a form of harassment? Another thing is that heaven, hell, etc is part of the teachings of the church (especially the Christian Churches). The government cannot/does not have any "power" to restrict (or declare it as a criminal offense) the teachings about hell because there is a separation between the church and state. Both function differently. If the government will declare that preaching about hell is actually a criminal offense, then it would seem that they are actually trying to "touch" a function of the church. If they do that, then they're breaking the law of the separation of church and state.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Criminal cases, as far as I know are those that are (or can be) harmful in any aspects (physical, emotional, etc). Teaching about hell does not inflict harm to anyone.

Sorry, but I must differ. There is such a thing as abusive teaching about hell. It does happen and it must be warded against. Quite fortunately, it is generally speaking rare.



What makes it harmful is the manner of how it is being taught. E.g, "All of those that are non members of our church will go to hell" and stuff like that. Those things can be managed within the organizations (church) or individuals (parent, children) involved, even without involving the law.

Sure. They can, and they usually are.

Then again, law is by its very nature meant for the exceptions, for the failures of individual judgement.

But the sticking point is that most of the damage is in fact caused by parents and priests. It is less a matter of how it is taught than of by whom and with which intensity and respite.



Also, if you don't believe in hell, how can that be a form of harassment? Let's say for instance, I grow up not believing in after life then all of a sudden, someone would approach me and say that I should repent or else I'll go to hell, would that make an impact to me considering the fact that I don't believe in it?

Most likely not. But again, we are talking about formative situations here.



So what's the use of having it declared as a criminal offense if a lot of people doesn't see it as a form of harassment?

So that people who are not in that lot or are too immature to realize that they are being harassed (which includes nearly all children up to a certain age) may be protected from the lack of wisdom and/or emotional stability of their parents and other adult figures, of course.



Another thing is that heaven, hell, etc is part of the teachings of the church (especially the Christian Churches). The government cannot/does not have any "power" to restrict (or declare it as a criminal offense) the teachings about hell because there is a separation between the church and state.

That much is true, but it works both ways. No Church (or parent) should expect to get away with otherwise criminal behavior out of claims that it is religiously motivated.

The State is supposed to not even try to decide if something has religious significance or not. It is expected to allow or restrain things out of their own merits, regardless of how sacred some people might consider them. That is much the same rationale that allows for the imprisonment of terrorists and psychopaths that swear to be following God's Will.



Both function differently. If the government will declare that preaching about hell is actually a criminal offense, then it would seem that they are actually trying to "touch" a function of the church. If they do that, then they're breaking the law of the separation of church and state.

I agree that it shouldn't. But that is not what I am talking about.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
What is this thread about?
1) Banning the teaching of Hell to kids because it is inherently abusive.
2) Banning the teaching of Hell to kids because parents could be abusive while doing so.
 

pwfaith

Active Member
Factors involved include the severity and persistence of the scare, of course. In some cases, also how real the source of the scary feelings is perceived as being.

That is not the case.

Why is it not also the case? I'm looking for equality. I know kids who are scared by many fairy tale stories (wolves and pigs, evil step-moms, etc). If a parent persistently reads them these stories and the child has scary feelings from them, do you put these parents on the same level?

Did you consistently cry or lose sleep over it? Did he, or someone other authority figure close to you, ever claim that those tales described real dangers?

Yes.
No.

How many Christian parents actually dwell on hell in the day to day? Are we talking a remote few or hundreds of thousands? I will agree there are a remote few that use hell as a scare tactic and bombard their children with talk of hell. I think you will find many who don't agree with doing this but merely teaching the existence of hell is not the same thing. We teach our children about many scary risks in life, all very real - what will happen if you don't look before crossing the street, stranger danger, etc. These can be scary to children too, but also very real. I have a daughter that loses sleep when they talk about tornado's in school. A son who lost sleep after they had drills in school for if someone breaks into the school to harm them. These are all REAL dangers in life. And many of them are scary to children and cause bad dreams. Are parents and teachers bad who teach their children these "real dangers". I would venture to guess most Christian parent do not bombard their children with thoughts and fears of hell. I've grown up in Christian rings my whole life. There was always an understanding of hell but I truly do not know anyone who was scared by hearing about hell anymore than various other things in their life they learned about, saw on TV, etc.

I'm in no position to tell.

According to your definition it seems you should be.

I don't disagree that emotional abuse exists and that nothing should be done about it. It does and children should be protected. But it can also be a very fine line.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
What is this thread about?
1) Banning the teaching of Hell to kids because it is inherently abusive.
2) Banning the teaching of Hell to kids because parents could be abusive while doing so.

Not exactly 2, but close. Certainly not 1 as far as I am concerned.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
No, because then parents couldn't do anything to their kids and we'd have a generations of brats the likes of which this nation has never seen
It seems though, that we have posters who would ban the teaching of Hell because it's possible that parents could abuse children in the course
of teaching it. This could apply to many other child related things, eg, beauty contests, sports, academics, music, discipline, feeding, entertainment.
I was wondering what general strategy would govern making some illegal, while allowing others.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Why is it not also the case?

Because two elements are missing.

1) persistence in scarying the children despite evidence that it is unhealthy for them and

2) claims that the tales describe a literal and inescapable truth.



I'm looking for equality. I know kids who are scared by many fairy tale stories (wolves and pigs, evil step-moms, etc). If a parent persistently reads them these stories and the child has scary feelings from them, do you put these parents on the same level?

Yes, I do. At least if the parents consistently claim that the stories describe the literal reality as well.

That is not quite the same situation that you initially offered, however.




Then I can only hope that they had a good grasp of how shaken you were and managed to avoid hurting you.




Thankfully. :)



How many Christian parents actually dwell on hell in the day to day?

Beats me. I also don't know how many present its existence as a fact and in an insensible way.


Are we talking a remote few or hundreds of thousands? I will agree there are a remote few that use hell as a scare tactic and bombard their children with talk of hell. I think you will find many who don't agree with doing this but merely teaching the existence of hell is not the same thing.

I fully agree. That, however, is no argument against having legal tools to contain the abuse when it happens.



We teach our children about many scary risks in life, all very real - what will happen if you don't look before crossing the street, stranger danger, etc. These can be scary to children too, but also very real. I have a daughter that loses sleep when they talk about tornado's in school. A son who lost sleep after they had drills in school for if someone breaks into the school to harm them. These are all REAL dangers in life. And many of them are scary to children and cause bad dreams. Are parents and teachers bad who teach their children these "real dangers".

They may easily be, if they teach them that God may want them to spend eternity there without regard to how well they handle that supposed truth.



I would venture to guess most Christian parent do not bombard their children with thoughts and fears of hell. I've grown up in Christian rings my whole life. There was always an understanding of hell but I truly do not know anyone who was scared by hearing about hell anymore than various other things in their life they learned about, saw on TV, etc.

Again, I fully agree. I just don't see why that is relevant.


According to your definition it seems you should be.

Why so?


I don't disagree that emotional abuse exists and that nothing should be done about it. It does and children should be protected. But it can also be a very fine line.

There is a lot that can and should be done about emotional abuse, and yes, the line is very fine indeed - which is why the law must, as usual, be the last recourse.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
It seems though, that we have posters who would ban the teaching of Hell because it's possible that parents could abuse children in the course of teaching it. This could apply to many other child related things, eg, beauty contests, sports, academics, music, discipline, feeding, entertainment.
I was wondering what general strategy would govern making some illegal, while allowing others.

Assuming I am one of those posters, I will say that as a rule I never support all-out bans by force of law. Law is just not worth having that much power. It is, after all, blind.
 

Azekual

Lost
Here's my view:
Don't tell them when they are little, tell them when they are 7 or 8. When they can understand the idea better and know it's not an immediate threat (if one at all).
If you must tell them when they're little, let the church leader bring it up (I'm sure he/she will) and eventually the kid will ask about it.Tell them you'll tell later. The kid will ask again later, when they do say "You want to know?" "You sure you want to know?", this will make them pay full attention (hopefully) and you explain it to them "it's where bad people go when they die" (I recommend leaving the devil and other details out until they're older)
 

839311

Well-Known Member
What is this thread about?
1) Banning the teaching of Hell to kids because it is inherently abusive.
2) Banning the teaching of Hell to kids because parents could be abusive while doing so.

Neither. The OP mentions children, but the thread is regarding all teaching of eternal hell to anyone, child or adult.
 

839311

Well-Known Member
but I truly do not know anyone who was scared by hearing about hell anymore than various other things in their life they learned about, saw on TV, etc.

I don't buy this for a second. What a load of **** Ive been hearing in this thread. "Oh, the teaching of hell doesn't frighten people. Its only your soul burning in hell forever, why would that bother anyone?" I was Christian. I know exactly what its like to consider in a very real way the threat of eternal torture.
 

pwfaith

Active Member
I don't buy this for a second. What a load of **** Ive been hearing in this thread. "Oh, the teaching of hell doesn't frighten people. Its only your soul burning in hell forever, why would that bother anyone?" I was Christian. I know exactly what its like to consider in a very real way the threat of eternal torture.

Who said it didn't frighten people? Do you have a quote #?
I disagree with the notion that it is frightening to the point of needing to change the constitution and/or have children taken away, or any MORE frightening than any number of things children are taught/told, most of the time.
 

839311

Well-Known Member
Who said it didn't frighten people? Do you have a quote #?
I disagree with the notion that it is frightening to the point of needing to change the constitution and/or have children taken away, or any MORE frightening than any number of things children are taught/told, most of the time.

Im not arguing just about children. I mean teaching it to anyone.

Let me get this straight. You are comparing the threat of violence against your soul via eternal torture in hell, and, say, being allowed to watch a horror movie? Is this what you are saying? :sarcastic

Violence. Movie. Violence. Movie. The law prohibits threatening people with violence.
 

Yeshe Dawa

Lotus Born
Who said it didn't frighten people? Do you have a quote #?
I disagree with the notion that it is frightening to the point of needing to change the constitution and/or have children taken away, or any MORE frightening than any number of things children are taught/told, most of the time.

Hi PWFaith!

I agree. Most religions teach that our actions resonate some type of effect in the spiritual realm, positive or negative. Many Buddhists believe there are hell worlds as well. It's only reasonable that parents will teach their children about their religion. I really don't see it as any different from teaching any other subject. Children learn history and that has some harsh concepts - but they are presented differently depending on the grade. I can't speak for everyone, but my personal experience is that this is typically how Christian sunday schools work as well.
There may be people who have had bad experiences, but that doesn't mean that we should start eroding religious freedoms.

Peace and blessings,
Yeshe
:flower2:
 
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