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Should teaching eternal hell be a crime?

Should teaching eternal hell be a crime offense?

  • Yes

    Votes: 21 36.2%
  • No

    Votes: 33 56.9%
  • Don't know

    Votes: 4 6.9%

  • Total voters
    58

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
I don't think the consequences for preaching eternal torment should be severe. Maybe a fine together with mandatory attendance at a Christian church which does not teach eternal torture. For a second offense maybe a significantly larger fine.


What about when people continue, and continue, and continue, because they feel it's an important part of their religion?


Even if we find something morally reprehensible, I don't think banning, fining or criminalising is a good way to go: it brings nothing good. You will end up with more people paranoid about the anti-Christ coming and so on. Since since this view spans the two largest religions, there's a lot of potential for... well, violence. Sadly.

Then, we get the good old slippery-slope argument: where does it end?

How long before it starts putting harassment on to people who practise differently? Like banning ritual circumcision, or cutting the hair of the children of Sikhs, or the removal of the wearing of the sacred thread for adherents of Hinduism? After all, these are all things done to minors. Do we start making it illegal for people to pass their religion on, or read scriptures, and so on? We have a major problem with Islam's text and the criminalisation of Hell: the Quran has a lot of talk of Hell and "The Fire". How would that be avoided?
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I voted no.

It's pretty messed up, and I feel pity for people that believe such things and teach it to others, but I don't feel that outlawing it is an acceptable response.

Promoting education and the use of critical thinking is a better tool I think, as it is for almost anything.

The things that some people teach their children does them a huge disservice. Teaching them about hell, and raising them within a religion that has that kind of morality does them a disservice. But so does teaching them that the world is only a few thousand years old, to distrust science, and to fill them with a bunch of incorrect statements.

It's a slippery slope to start banning what people personally tell others.
 
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TJ73

Active Member
That question is very disturbing. Even if you want to argue if it is true or not it is not criminal nor should it ever be. People live in the paradigms of their cultures. Should we seek and destroy the cultures in the South Amercian jungles if they don't meet the western developed standard for a proper civilization? You just can't impose your belief or lack there of on other people and their children. As it is we have enough interference from school and government agenda. We also like to falsely link any childhood unpleasantness with the issues we have as adults. People are only as resilient as you let them be.
 

839311

Well-Known Member
It's pretty messed up, and I feel pity for people that believe such things and teach it to others, but I don't feel that outlawing it is an acceptable response.

Where do you think the line should be drawn? Do you think that having stoning be outlawed is right? Should gay marriage be outlawed? Should the killing of apostates be outlawed? At what point would you say that the evil and harm inflicted on others by members of a cult should be controlled? Should the harm inflicted on others be limited to bodily harm?

It's a slippery slope to start banning what people personally tell others.

We have laws in our society against harrassment. Its illegal for someone to personally tell someone that they will be harmed, be it physical or emotional harm. So why is it that when a preacher terrorizes a person with the threat of eternal hell it is tolerated? Im glad that stoning was outlawed. It is a barbaric law created by evil fanatics. Im glad that gay marriage is approved into law, although not everywhere yet. Gay people have been persecuted by the brainwashed religious people for long enough. Im glad that slavery was abolished, even though the South undoubtedly was using scripture to defend slavery. Our societies have stood up to a great deal of the insane evil of religions already. We shouldn't stop now. We should keep going until every kind of criminal, harmful act committed by brainwashed follwers of cults is made illegal.
 

MissAlice

Well-Known Member
You know I was just thinking. As a child who came from a mixed up background regarding religion, I was very afraid my family was going to hell. My grandparents would take us to church. I remember the concept of hell and how much it affected me. I use to think my parents were going to hell because they didn't believe in "god" as my grandparents faith believed. As I got older I lost the fear and after some serious thinking decided the concept of hell in the hereafter was just as fallible as the religion.

I'm not sure what to think. I think there can be some psychological harm for a child to some extent given the circumstance and the individual. I'm personally against it but that's just my opinion.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That question is very disturbing. Even if you want to argue if it is true or not it is not criminal nor should it ever be. People live in the paradigms of their cultures. Should we seek and destroy the cultures in the South Amercian jungles if they don't meet the western developed standard for a proper civilization? You just can't impose your belief or lack there of on other people and their children. As it is we have enough interference from school and government agenda. We also like to falsely link any childhood unpleasantness with the issues we have as adults. People are only as resilient as you let them be.
Of course people can impose their belief on others and their children.

Some people think it's acceptable to beat their children badly if they misbehave, while others do not. And so in some areas, parents aren't allowed to beat their children badly, if at all.

Where do you think the line should be drawn? Do you think that having stoning be outlawed is right? Should gay marriage be outlawed? Should the killing of apostates be outlawed? At what point would you say that the evil and harm inflicted on others by members of a cult should be controlled? Should the harm inflicted on others be limited to bodily harm?
Where to draw the line is a good question, and one I've put thought into. It's admittedly a very gray area, and at least partially culturally dependent. For instance, a small part of me thinks that yes, it should be illegal to teach small children that their god tortures people or to teach them a bunch of stuff that is completely scientifically incorrect, but the rest of me says that it's simply too big of an intrusion.

For those specific questions,
-Stoning: absolutely, outlaw it
-Gay Marriage: absolutely not
-killing: absolutely, outlaw it

Any physical harm should be controlled. Other harms that should be controlled are things like abuse (telling a child they are worthless, terrible, mentally manipulating them, etc.), threats of violence, and so forth.

So if, say, a parent is constantly telling their child they deserve to go to hell and burn and be tortured or whatnot, then that would reasonably qualify under abuse in my view. But if a parent teaches that in their religion, hell exists and some people go there under certain conditions, then it's ignorant and regrettable but I don't think it's right to step in and say they can't teach that. It opens up too many potential ramifications.

We have laws in our society against harrassment. Its illegal for someone to personally tell someone that they will be harmed, be it physical or emotional harm. So why is it that when a preacher terrorizes a person with the threat of eternal hell it is tolerated?
Because people keep going back to those churches and even giving those preachers money. :facepalm:

Now if some guy tells me on the street that I'll be going to hell (and many preachers at my college commonly told that to people passing by), then that's their free speech. But if he decides to follow me around personally, shouting in my ears and threatening me personally and repeatedly, then that's harassment.

Im glad that stoning was outlawed. It is a barbaric law created by evil fanatics. Im glad that gay marriage is approved into law, although not everywhere yet. Gay people have been persecuted by the brainwashed religious people for long enough. Im glad that slavery was abolished, even though the South undoubtedly was using scripture to defend slavery. Our societies have stood up to a great deal of the insane evil of religions already. We shouldn't stop now. We should keep going until every kind of criminal, harmful act committed by brainwashed follwers of cults is made illegal.
I'm all for gay marriage and the illegality of slavery and such. It's because I support as much freedom as possible, and that includes people spreading untrue statements that they don't know are untrue.

But if everything that was merely "harmful" was made illegal, then basically everything would be illegal because for just about anything that exists, a bunch of people think it's bad.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I don't believe in an eternal Hell, but I do believe in freedom of speech, so my answer is 'no.'
 

839311

Well-Known Member
So if, say, a parent is constantly telling their child they deserve to go to hell and burn and be tortured or whatnot, then that would reasonably qualify under abuse in my view. But if a parent teaches that in their religion, hell exists and some people go there under certain conditions, then it's ignorant and regrettable but I don't think it's right to step in and say they can't teach that.

Isn't the end result the same? I don't think it matters much whether you tell someone just one time that you will injure them next week, or whether you tell them every day of the week that on sunday you will harm them. You still end up with a person who is worried, perhaps terrified, because of the threat(s).

Now if some guy tells me on the street that I'll be going to hell (and many preachers at my college commonly told that to people passing by), then that's their free speech. But if he decides to follow me around personally, shouting in my ears and threatening me personally and repeatedly, then that's harassment.

Same thing as above. What if the guy tells you that if you don't believe then him and his friends will come visit you next week and hurt you. In either case, you are being threatened with physical harm in the future. Neither of us would take the threat of eternal hell seriously if it were made to us, but the next person might. That person might continue to think about it all throughout that day, becoming more and more fearful as his uncertainty regarding his eternal soul grows. Threatening someone with physical harm is illegal. Yet, that is exactly what the preaching of eternal hell is - a threat of physical harm that many people genuinly become fearful of.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
You all have swayed my opinion, the harm to children brought about by certain beliefs is such a threat that teaching those beliefs to children should be outlawed...

We should march on Washington, repeal that pesky 1st Amendment, and get to setting things right...

We need to ban all parents from teaching anything other than Jesus Christ as savior for sins... Your first warning will require you to go to an orthodox Christian Church, the consequences will be steepen until you accede to government mandated teachings, or your children are forcefully removed.

Oh wait, attempting to control religious teaching by threatening to remove children from families is barbaric.

God forefend the day.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
What humans believe is almost irrelevant. It's more about a discussion on whether it is a truth or not. Other than that, all left is just another human perspective, that is, when and how such a discussion is considered proper.

Warning people (even children) off a trap is never a sin. Telling people to prepare for the worst is not a sin (thus Noah's deed is never a sin).

On the other hand, telling people that "there's no bomb there, no terrorists in the US" while you are clueless about it, then it could be a sin.
 
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ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Sure you can. Go to a busy street corner in Mecca and start preaching to people about your beliefs. While your at it, tell them that you believe Muhammad is a false prophet. You will be stopped, to say the least.

Evil done in the name of religion is unwisely tolerated by our society. What happened to many of the child raping priests? Were they prosecuted? Nope. Reassigned to another church. Are you ******* kidding me? People need to wake up.

This isn't a joke. Comparing terrorizing people with eternal punishment with nuts is disturbing. T"

Of course it's disturbing. I was not making a joke. In order to get people to stop teaching about hell, you would have to get rid of all of our free speech rights- that is what is disturbing. I don't even believe in an eternal hell. And I don't live in Mecca and have no plans to ever visit there.

And religion is not evil. Some (a few) religious people can use it for evil, but that is not the same thing as being evil in itself.
 

839311

Well-Known Member
You all have swayed my opinion, the harm to children brought about by certain beliefs is such a threat that teaching those beliefs to children should be outlawed...

We should march on Washington, repeal that pesky 1st Amendment, and get to setting things right...

We need to ban all parents from teaching anything other than Jesus Christ as savior for sins... Your first warning will require you to go to an orthodox Christian Church, the consequences will be steepen until you accede to government mandated teachings, or your children are forcefully removed.

I find your use of sarcasm disturbing. Its this kind of reckless attitude that comes up whenever one of Christianity's evil teachings is opposed and deemed to be a violation of basic human rights. "And while they're at it, they should outlaw gay marriage! They've already abolished slavery, even though the bible clearly is in favor of it!". According to the bible, your allowed to own slaves. Adulterers should be killed. Not accepting Jesus as your personal savior means being punished by means of physical torment for all eternity. etc. Christianity is an evil cult. People should dismiss the sarcasm and manipulation of these people, and seriously consider all the harm that these people inflict on others. Slavery is recognized as evil. So is genocide. So is the killing of adulterers and idolaters. So are witch trials. Theres more to be done though.

[youtube]z_UI-EBGnqk[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_UI-EBGnqk

People deserve to have the law fully protect them against such harrassment.
 

839311

Well-Known Member
In order to get people to stop teaching about hell, you would have to get rid of all of our free speech rights

Not at all. All that is required is to stop giving religions immunity from the law. The law already says that threatening people with physical harm is illegal. The threat of eternal torment is exactly that. Free speech isn't infringed upon. These are simply crimes for which there are already laws, yet our society has so far been reluctant to include preaching of hell in this - so far. Ofcourse, there is progress being made against many of the other evil teachings of Christianity, such as gay marriage, and banning fundie cousellors from being able to tell gay patients that they are sinners. Which isn't to say this kind of change has always been peaceful. It took a civil war to abolish slavery, something the bible condones and was thus used to justify slavery as a divinely approved system.
 
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ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Not at all. All that is required is to stop giving religions immunity from the law. The law already says that threatening people with physical harm is illegal. The threat of eternal torment is exactly that. Free speech isn't infringed upon. These are simply crimes for which there are already laws, yet our society has so far been reluctant to include preaching of hell in this - so far. Of course, there is progress being made against many of the other evil teachings of Christianity, such as gay marriage, and banning fundamentalist counselors from being able to tell gay patients that they are sinners. Which isn't to say this kind of change has always been peaceful. It took a civil war to abolish slavery, something the bible condones and was thus used to justify slavery as a divinely approved system.


What you're suggesting is throwing the baby out with the the bath. A good counselor wouldn't give harmful advice to his/her patients. There were a lot of pre-Civil War abolitionists who were Christians- that argument is getting quite old. I agree that when you are at a job you should not preach; since it is not your own time.

And people don't have to accept everything. It would be nice, but it is not realistic.

On top of that- you are saying something is evil because they may say someone else is evil- seems like a double standard. :)
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Not at all. All that is required is to stop giving religions immunity from the law. The law already says that threatening people with physical harm is illegal. The threat of eternal torment is exactly that. Free speech isn't infringed upon. These are simply crimes for which there are already laws, yet our society has so far been reluctant to include preaching of hell in this - so far. Ofcourse, there is progress being made against many of the other evil teachings of Christianity, such as gay marriage, and banning fundie cousellors from being able to tell gay patients that they are sinners. Which isn't to say this kind of change has always been peaceful. It took a civil war to abolish slavery, something the bible condones and was thus used to justify slavery as a divinely approved system.

On the other hand, to some people yelling "there's a bomb in the building" is a threatening as a result of they can't tell a warning from a threatening. So should the laws ban the message that "there's a bomb in the building".

Human reasoning capability is limited.

Slavery is a human practice considered 100% lawful (yet you add this to the law as well), and 100% supported by both human Caesers and their people. So don't expect the Jews to live out of your human standard (as which is not needed for salvation, either). God allows you to practice what considered to be 100% lawful by your laws and culture. He just demanded that the Jews should treat the slaves better than their surrounding humans (say, Egyptians killed the Jews children on-sight simply because the Jews got over-populated, while the Jews won't do that).

At the same time, God demanded the Jews not to live a slavery life satisfactorily. That's why the Exodus (by Moses the great prophet). And actually there will be another Exodus where Jesus Christ (the greatest prophet) will lead the Jews/Gentiles to leave Egypt/Hades, and to the promise land of Canaan/New Earth and New Heaven to stop their slavery life.

Hope that you can figure out the prophetic parallel.
 

839311

Well-Known Member
What you're suggesting is throwing the baby out with the the bath. A good counselor wouldn't give harmful advice to his/her patients. There were a lot of pre-Civil War abolitionists who were Christians- that argument is getting quite old.

I disagree. That kind of opposition is quite compelling, even to the very same people whose religion advocates this kind of harmful behavior. For many of them reason wins out, just like in how you don't believe in eternal hell. Slavery used to be legal all across the country. But not everyone supported it. Eventually people stood up and said "NO! We're not going to let this happen any longer." Harmful behavior needs to be opposed, no matter what form it takes.

On the other hand, if people will stop me on the street corner and tell me I am going to heaven no matter what, then thats fine by me. I would still like to see them think critically about their beliefs, but there is nothing malevolent about telling people that their god plans to save everyone from death and welcome them into eternal paradise.

On top of that- you are saying something is evil because they may say someone else is evil- seems like a double standard. :)

Thats not what Im saying. Im saying that an organization whose ultimate master will torment people forever is evil, as well as condones slavery, commits genocide, et.. That is evil. You can't get any more evil than that. I personally think that tormenting people forever is the most evil thing imaginable. Now I know that people have been brainwashed to believe that somehow this same god is also perfectly good. Many Germans in Hitlers time were brainwashed into thinking Hitler was good. Whether they knew it or not, they were part of an evil force that swept across Europe and committed some of the worst atrocities against humanity ever. Evil needs to be opposed. Harrassing people with the threat of eternal punishment is not ok. It causes people harm. It manipulates people with the power of fear.

Did you watch the video? What do you think of it? I think its incredible how he says all the things that I was hoping he wouldn't say. There is nothing subtle or concealed about what he is doing. Its disturbing that thinking human beings can be so corrupted.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I think there is something very wrong with teaching children an idea that so shocks the mind, even an adult mind, but a child's mind is still in development. Not only that, but you're doing double damage to the child, because while you're teaching them this hell idea you're also teaching them that this is a loving and good god who punishes people this way.

You have to distort to meaning of love and goodness to ever make eternal torment look good in any sense, and then you're teaching your children distorted ideas.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Harrassing people with the threat of eternal punishment is not ok. It causes people harm. It manipulates people with the power of fear.
For those who want to make the teaching of eternal Hell to children illegal, do you propose ignoring the 1st Amendment,
or passing a new amendment giving government control over religious teaching? Just trying to examine the practical side.
 

839311

Well-Known Member
On the other hand, to some people yelling "there's a bomb in the building" is a threatening as a result of they can't tell a warning from a threatening. So should the laws ban the message that "there's a bomb in the building".

Context is important. What people are yelling "there's a bomb in the building!"? Are they radical terrorists who have set up explosives in the building and are now taking people hostage? Or are they people running out the door with scared looks on their faces?

Most people don't preach eternal torment because they simply want to frighten people. They are doing the 'lords work', and probably have compassion for their fellow people. But that doesn't make it acceptable. Just because someone thinks that blowing up a building with an airplane is good doesn't make it so.

He just demanded that the Jews should treat the slaves better than their surrounding humans (say, Egyptians killed the Jews children on-sight simply because the Jews got over-populated, while the Jews won't do that).

Do you believe in the magical tree story with adam and eve too? You need to realize that these are just stories. God didn't ask Abraham to kill his own son. Thats completely insane. It is only something that a twisted human living in a primitive place would come up with. Why would God care about how slaves are treated, while at the same time enjoying hardening peoples hearts so that he can use it as an excuse to ravage a nation with horrible catastrophes? It doesn't make sense. Think about it.
 
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