Should the Bible be outlawed

[Humanistheart]

What can I say, I live in the country from which the Bible has originated from, and the nation recognizes same sex marriage, which means that at some point we will also provide SSM, and not just recognize existing SSM.
the Bible is not the absolute trademark of religion here, first, before everything it is a manifestation of culture and historical heritage.

And which country would that be? And what degree's do you have in the subject?

Your point of culture is not lost. One day my countires culture will evolve to the point where the bible is not used as the basis for political discions as well, hopefully. But even when it does the fact will remain, the bible is not appropriate material for children.

 

[Caladan]

And which country would that be? And what degree's do you have in the subject?

Israel (tip: on the upper right side of a member's post there are a few details including location).
I have studied (and study) archaeology and ancient near eastern cultures, while it does not make me a Biblical scholar, I do study the subject, mostly from the angle of scriptural historiography.

 

[Humanistheart]

Israel (tip: on the upper right side of a member's post there are a few details including location).
I have studied (and study) archaeology and ancient near eastern cultures, while it does not make me a Biblical scholar, I do study the subject, mostly from the angle of scriptural historiography.

Ah, thanks for the tip. I have a minor in Religius Studies, hardly worth mentioning I know.

I was wondering if you meant isreal. The bible's we're talking about are different. From my persepective I was argueing the christian bible, not the hebrew bible. You also have the Talmud and other sources to temper your bible, christians do not. Your case is a bit different than my countries, in that your bible actually is tied into your personal heritage. I thnk we've been arguing apples and oranges. But again, you know the content of the bible, you can't tell me you believe exposing young children to the idea of rape, incest, murder, genocide, and a very jelous god is really conducive to their mental health now can you?

 

[Caladan]

Ah, thanks for the tip. I have a minor in Religius Studies, hardly worth mentioning I know.

I was wondering if you meant isreal. The bible's we're talking about are different. From my persepective I was argueing the christian bible, not the hebrew bible. You also have the Talmud and other sources to temper your bible, christians do not. Your case is a bit different than my countries, in that your bible actually is tied into your personal heritage. I thnk we've been arguing apples and oranges. But again, you know the content of the bible, you can't tell me you believe exposing young children to the idea of rape, incest, murder, genocide, and a very jelous god is really conducive to their mental health now can you?

Are you kidding me?
revenge, war, heathen gods, warrior women, betrayal, erotica.. the Bible has what every adolescent wants and needs!

 

[Humanistheart]

Are you kidding me?
revenge, war, heathen gods, warrior women, betrayal, erotica.. the Bible has what every adolescent wants and needs!

Ha ha, good one But I said young children, not adolescence. It's an important distinction that you'd perhaps have to be familiar with Child Development to apreciate. I think the mass rape and incest in the bible sends an unhealthy message of sexuality to adolescence though. Well, maybe not the incest, who doesn't like the idea of having twins in bed? lol.

 

[Oberon]

Ha ha, good one But I said young children, not adolescence. It's an important distinction that you'd perhaps have to be familiar with Child Development to apreciate. I think the mass rape and incest in the bible sends an unhealthy message of sexuality to adolescence though. Well, maybe not the incest, who doesn't like the idea of having twins in bed? lol.

Not that this is an argument for allowing the bible to be read by or to children, but do you really think that the language of even the most "english" translation can be readily understood by children?

Personally, (as a more or less agnostic) I don't know what is right or wrong, and while I certainly have my opinions, I wouldn't make any major religious work illegal, simply because parts of it can be interpreted as going against the understanding of morality by the bulk of my particular culture, nor would I say that this work can't be taught to children by parents. I am against book barring in general, and also tend to favor parental rights over children rather than state interference.

 

[Humanistheart]

Not that this is an argument for allowing the bible to be read by or to children, but do you really think that the language of even the most "english" translation can be readily understood by children?

Personally, (as a more or less agnostic) I don't know what is right or wrong, and while I certainly have my opinions, I wouldn't make any major religious work illegal, simply because parts of it can be interpreted as going against the understanding of morality by the bulk of my particular culture, nor would I say that this work can't be taught to children by parents. I am against book barring in general, and also tend to favor parental rights over children rather than state interference.

Not all of it no. Nor am I arguing for it to me made illegal completley, as I said in my first post on this thread, that would violate our ever shrinking civil liberties. But, as a person who's major and job is dedicated to helping children, I will maintain it should be illegal to read/preach the bible to children. Parental rights over state interference? *Sighs*. I do social work, one week in my job and you'd change your tune. So you think that beating children is okay, because that's a parents right? Perhaps you have no problem with raping them? Or maybe neglect and emmotional abuse carry no weight for you. I truly hope you just didn't think your statment through and this is not idicative of your true thought process.

Imagine your a child, say, 6 years old, who's just been read the story of abraham and issac. You know your parents are believing christians or jews, or muslims if you preffer to use the ishmeal equivalent, and you look at their smiling faces as they reveal that the sacrifice was all a test, and somehow that made it okay. And you think, if they heard a voice in their head telling them to kill me they'd do it, because they believe in god. Trust me, it's terrifying. What I wondered, even as a child, was how my parents could possibly think a god that would use that as a test would possibly deserve praise, or even existance. Then there's hell. Christians tell their children if they don't believe in god they'll burn in a lake of fire for all eternity, in horrible aganizing pain forever and ever. It's a disturbing book, and it's not suitable for children. I'm not arguing the bible should be banned completely, just that it should be treated as any other potentially harmful substance and not expose children to it, just as I would not want then exposed to drugs, to violent beatings, to verbal abuse, to emotional abuse or neglect, etc etc.

 

[Father Heathen]

Most Episcopalian and United Methodist churches were strongly against Prop 8. The United Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ fought the measure. The Unitarian Universalists (Christian in heritage, at least) were on the forefront of the anti-Prop 8 movement.

Saying that "Christians" were responsible for Prop 8 is to paint with far too wide a brush, and overgeneralizes to a ridiculous degree. You're better than that.

Right, people should take care to narrow it down to fundamentalists.

 

[Storm]

Children have the right to read whatever they want. And considering the enthusiasm children have for reading these days, it's even more important that they're not limited in any way.

Well, while I don't in any way support outlawing the Bible, whether for minors or anyone else, this isn't entirely true. Different children can handle different ideas, and it's the parents' responsibility to screen reading (and other) materials for them. When my son finds The Incredibles and Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone too frightening, it would be the height of irresponsibility for me to let him read Lovecraft.

 

[Humanistheart]

Right, people should take care to narrow it down to fundamentalists.

If it was just fundamentalist how did prop 8 pass? Are you suggesting that Ca is made up in majority by fundamentalists? Seems rather unlikely in the most liberal state in america now doesn't it? And fundamentalist are christians, so saying christians spent billions in relation to prop 8 is entirley correct, even if it's not specific.

 

[Oberon]

Parental rights over state interference? *Sighs*. I do social work, one week in my job and you'd change your tune.

Perhaps. But then Saddam Hussein and Adolf Hitler both supplanted parental rights by state interference, and yet with awful consequences. I certainly don't condone rape or child abuse, but then again I would be opposed to the state telling a parent what s/he can or cannot teach to her or his children about morality, even if I am opposed to it.

So you think that beating children is okay, because that's a parents right? Perhaps you have no problem with raping them? Or maybe neglect and emmotional abuse carry no weight for you.

I don't have a problem with spanking, but I do with beating or rape. And I think that emotional abuse should carry weight. However, there is a lot of grey area. This is especially true when it comes to morality and religion.

Imagine your a child, say, 6 years old, who's just been read the story of abraham and issac. You know your parents are believing christians or jews, or muslims if you preffer to use the ishmeal equivalent, and you look at their smiling faces as they reveal that the sacrifice was all a test, and somehow that made it okay. And you think, if they heard a voice in their head telling them to kill me they'd do it, because they believe in god. Trust me, it's terrifying.

Happanened to me. My parents were both catholic (my father converted). And yet, somehow, I got a bachelor's in psychology, joined the military, left, and I have been going to school AND gainfully employed ever since. Now I have multiple degrees, I pay my own way, and I am more or less "healthy" mentally. All this despite having been taught that Abraham was told by God to kill his son.

 

[monta]

I remember my first book of bible stories, I loved it, of course parental discretion must be advised, but banning the bible would be like banning The Odysee or The Tain or The Mahabharata, should anything based on the bible also be banned, Dantes Inferno, or Miltons Paradise Lost.

The bible isn't the cause of peoples intollerance and hatred it is just being used by the intollerant and hateful as a tool to justify their actions.

 

[Enlighten]

The bible isn't the cause of peoples intollerance and hatred it is just being used by the intollerant and hateful as a tool to justify their actions.

:clap exactly, In my opinion the Bible shouldn't be used to tell other people how to live their lives, it should be a guide to our own lives (should we believe that is).

 

[Humanistheart]

Perhaps. But then Saddam Hussein and Adolf Hitler both supplanted parental rights by state interference, and yet with awful consequences. I certainly don't condone rape or child abuse, but then again I would be opposed to the state telling a parent what s/he can or cannot teach to her or his children about morality, even if I am opposed to it..

We're not talking about morality, we're talking about exposing children to potentially harmful material.

I don't have a problem with spanking, but I do with beating or rape. And I think that emotional abuse should carry weight. However, there is a lot of grey area. This is especially true when it comes to morality and religion. .

Perhaps you should have majored in CD instead or Biblical studies, you'd would not approve of spanking if you had the facts. Your the one who loves to appeal to the experts in the field, you will not find one Child Development specialist who condones spanking today. You might be good with biblical studies, but I really hope your not a parent. Grey area in religion is only there because our culture wants to justify it's continual forced indocrtination of children. We haven't fully let go of the idea that children are property.

and I am more or less "healthy" mentally. .

Judging by your last posts I'd would have to disagree.

 

[Humanistheart]

I remember my first book of bible stories, I loved it, of course parental discretion must be advised, but banning the bible would be like banning The Odysee or The Tain or The Mahabharata, should anything based on the bible also be banned, Dantes Inferno, or Miltons Paradise Lost.

The bible isn't the cause of peoples intollerance and hatred it is just being used by the intollerant and hateful as a tool to justify their actions.

I'd say it's a bit of both, culture influences the religion and vice versa. But as you said, its a tool. Guns are a kind of tool, and we do have gun controll in this country after all.

 

[monta]

I'd say it's a bit of both, culture influences the religion and vice versa. But as you said, its a tool. Guns are a kind of tool, and we do have gun controll in this country after all.

If you don't believe in a god (and I don't) then you accept the bible is a product of the human mind. Everything in it is a manifestation of human desires and aspirations, which despite our very high opinion of our progress, changes very little from one century to the next.

A gun has a very specific purpose, and can be used to kill but a hammer or a rock will do the job as well, the fault isn't with the object it is with the mind that is deciding how to use the object.

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

Suppose for one minute that the Bible has never been seen or heard of by a living being. One day the Bible appears in print and published as the truth by the author. How many people do you think would believe anything in it? It's only because of the belief of past generations who have passed this story on to us that some people believe it to be a true story. The Bible would be disregarded as trash if published today. Very few people would take it seriously because there is no proof to back up anything in it. It's the most disgusting, unbelievable and evil book ever published. It would be put on a shelf where children could not see it. I agree that it will never be outlawed but it should be.

I personally do not believe that any book or written word should be banned. When we start suppressing personal expression we put ourselves in danger of forgetting where we came from and how far we have come.

 

[J Bryson]

If it was just fundamentalist how did prop 8 pass? Are you suggesting that Ca is made up in majority by fundamentalists? Seems rather unlikely in the most liberal state in america now doesn't it? And fundamentalist are christians, so saying christians spent billions in relation to prop 8 is entirley correct, even if it's not specific.

It's a bit like saying that atheists were responsible for totalitarian communist regimes in Eastern Europe. Technically true, but it misses the larger point.

I'm saying that the majority of people who voted on Prop 8 were frightened by fundamentalists into thinking that the measure was something that it wasn't. It isn't only fundamentalist Christians who had a problem with gay marriage. You can find prejudice and narrow-mindedness among agnostics and atheists as well, as I'm sure you're aware.

The problem as I see it is an internalized homophobia within society. While many Christian churches are prominent in making noise about the so-called "gay agenda", the fault lies within those who fear "the other". You can't blame Christianity for that: The churches we're talking about only serve to give voice to a pre-existing issue.

 

[Oberon]

We're not talking about morality, we're talking about exposing children to potentially harmful material.

What constitutes "harmful" when it come not just to moral teachings but to psychology and emotional abuse (and I do have a B.S., hardly worth mentioning, in this field) there IS a lot of grey area. For example, teaching neo-nazi ideology to children is certainly wrong as far as I am concerned, but as you are an atheist what constitutes "right" or "wrong" are purely human constructs. Ojbectively, they do not exist.

Perhaps you should have majored in CD instead or Biblical studies

My first undergrad was a B.S. in psychology. While in the army, I became a registered nurse (I was an 18D, so this was related to my MOS). Afterwards, I have studied a variety of fields, from linguistics to psychology, to history, but the only graduate degrees I currently hold are in Biblical Studies and Classical Studies.

Your the one who loves to appeal to the experts in the field, you will not find one Child Development specialist who condones spanking today.

Actually that isn't true. However, I agree that the vast majority do not condone spanking.

You might be good with biblical studies, but I really hope your not a parent.

Not yet.

Grey area in religion is only there because our culture wants to justify it's continual forced indocrtination of children. We haven't fully let go of the idea that children are property.

The grey area isn't just in religion, but morality. You are an atheist. Assuming you are using that term not as it literally is translated but as is commonly used, that means you believe that there is NO higher spiritual power, whether Karma or Zeus or Allah. As such, morality is just a social construct. What is right or wrong to teach children, or what is right or wrong in general, is merely what either the ruling class or the majority in a particular culture BELIEVE is right.

We haven't fully let go of the idea that children are property.

Yes we have. However, we certainly don't accord them an equal status with citizens.

Judging by your last posts I'd would have to disagree.

And you are welcome to. But what is your expertise when it comes to mental illness? You work with children, as you have said, but what is your specialty? What degrees do you possess? Certainly my undergrad in psychology means nothing, but then I have continued as a hobby to study mental illness. Given my personal history and the level of mental fitness I have had to demonstrate for various jobs and positions I have held, I think I can make a fairly strong claim concerning mental health.

 

[Humanistheart]

A gun has a very specific purpose, and can be used to kill but a hammer or a rock will do the job as well, the fault isn't with the object it is with the mind that is deciding how to use the object.

So the children who accidently get shot playing with daddy's gun decided to kill themselves did they?