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Should the Bible be taken as 100% true?

Levite

Higher and Higher
I'm a Jew, and I don't take the Tanakh (OT) 100% literally.

Personally, I think that if you're reading the Bible for a lesson in history, or biology, or cosmology, you're reading it for the wrong reasons. That is not what it was intended to be for.

Second of all, as a Jew, my understanding of the Written Torah is that it cannot be read alone: it is intended to be read alongside the Oral Torah (Talmud, Midrash, and the rest of the body of Rabbinic writings) in order to properly interpret it. One cannot properly follow the commandments without the interpretation of the Rabbis of the Talmud to explain what the actual parameters are. For example, when the Torah says 'ayin takhat 'ayin, "an eye for an eye," one might think if one read only the literal text of the Written Torah, that someone responsible for blinding a person's eye was liable to themselves be blinded in an eye. But the interpretation of the Talmud corrects this misapprehension, and informs us that what the Torah means there is actually the monetary value of the eye and everything that went with it (i.e., damages for pain and suffering, compensation for lost work, etc.), which the blinder owes to the blindee.

Even from a Jewish academic viewpoint, it seems clear that even in pre-Rabbinic societies, there was an expectation that exegetical materials needed to be created in order to understand the text properly. For example, the Dead Sea Scrolls include not only a great portion of the Biblical canon, but also a large amount of what I would term quasi-midrashic exegetical material assembled in order for the members of the Qumran Sect to interpret the scripture according to their rather apocalyptic teachings. Some of the so-called Apocryphal texts seem also to fall into the quasi- or proto-midrashic realm: Joseph and Asenath, Sefer Hanokh (the Book of Enoch), the Martyrdom of Isaiah, Sefer ha-Yovelot (the Book of Jubilees), Susannah, Yehudit (Judith), the Prayer of Menasseh, the Prayer of Azariel, and First Esdras' last four chapters being the works that spring to my mind. We have no extant copy of Sefer Tzadok (the Book of Zadok), which was apparently the central exegetical text of the Tzedukim (Sadducees), but the surviving quotes that appear in Rabbinic anti-Sadducee polemics appear to indicate both a quasi-aggadic (narrative) midrashic element and also a pseudo-halakhic (legal exegetical/jurisgenetive) element. In other words, it seems likely that for the preponderance of Jewish history, the Written Torah was not read literally, in isolation: there was always some oral tradition (some of which eventually got written down) there to interpret it.

In any case, when it comes to the narrative, allegorical, or metaphorical elements in the Biblical text, there is a long-standing principle of interpretation: dibrah Torah ki'leshon b'nai Adam, meaning "the Torah speaks in the way people speak," meaning that some texts are simply not designed to be taken literally. They may be idioms, they may be circumlocutions, they may be metaphorical. This principle has been applied over the centuries to various verses by different commentators. There is no reason for the modern Jew not to apply it in the same way to those verses that trouble us today. Additionally, one is expected to use common sense and reason in the interpretation of the verses; and according to Rambam (Rabbi Moses Maimonides, 12th century, one of the greatest scholars of Jewish law and exegetical interpretation) one must also take into account the evidences of "natural philosophy," which was what they called science in those days. If, he tells us, the Torah appears to contradict what science tells us about the world, then we must not be understanding the Torah correctly: there must be another interpretation that does not force us to negate common sense.

Personally again, I would also want to differentiate between divinely authored text and divinely inspired text. The former-- which would seem to indicate that God literally dictated the entire Torah to Moses on Mount Sinai, and Moses dutifully copied it down word for word, exactly as we have it today-- is not something I can believe in. To me, that is simply not reasonable to accept. However, I can accept the latter concept-- meaning that the Torah was written by a number of people, but that those people were prophets, trying their best to comprehend and transcribe the messages that God gave them; but prophecy is not like a phone call, and when the revelatory visions are experienced by flawed human beings, they can misinterpret what God has shown them, or misremember it, or misunderstand it, and when they compose their experiences into formalized poetry, their own errors and interpretations can hide or twist the message that God intended...which is why, IMO, Judaism teaches us that Torah continues to be made every day, as Jews interpret and reinterpret the laws and the text.

What it boils down to is that the Tanakh was not intended to be taken literally, nor need it be seen as the literal Word of God to be divine and holy in origin. IMO, taking it literally is both erroneous and counterproductive.
 

Vasilisa Jade

Formerly Saint Tigeress
"Is anything in this existence 100% correct?"

So gods make mistakes?

I don't remember the name of the fallacy... but you asked this assuming that I believe in a singular omnipotent benevolent god, and I do not.

I believe the christian god was created by His followers to their liking in their image writ large, hence, he is not benevolent or omnipotent, but certainly possesses the ego to make claims of such, just like many of the followers on a smaller scale.

My beliefs are a little bit like the wild hair up my *** right now so... yeah.
 

emmygirl62

give peace a chance!
I don't believe it should be taken as 100% true. It was written by men and influenced by the times they lived in. There's also a lot of symbolism in it and different ways to interpret it.
 

Jeremiah

Well-Known Member
I don't remember the name of the fallacy... but you asked this assuming that I believe in a singular omnipotent benevolent god, and I do not.

I believe the christian god was created by His followers to their liking in their image writ large, hence, he is not benevolent or omnipotent, but certainly possesses the ego to make claims of such, just like many of the followers on a smaller scale.

My beliefs are a little bit like the wild hair up my *** right now so... yeah.


"but you asked this assuming that I believe in a singular omnipotent benevolent god, and I do not."


The only one making assumptions here is you.

Note: I said, "gods", with a "S" and in the plural form of "god". So clearly I was not talking about a "singular omnipotent benevolent god".
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Is there anything in the commentaries that suggests that part of the Torah is false? Because I've never read of such a thing in the commentaries.
That depends on how you choose to employ the term "false," and I'm not at all interested in playing silly word games with you. But, for a start, read ...

260466185-0-s.jpg

and get back to me ...
 

JustWondering2

Just the facts Ma'am
Thanks to everyone here who have commented. It seems that even folks who are believers in God view the Bible in many different ways. I tend to agree with those who cannot take it as 100% literal or 100% the words of God himself. I think there a wonderful lessons of life to be learned in reading it. But that's about it! Also why would rules from the OT need to be superseded by new rules in the NT if it's all the word of God? That makes no sense to me at all! And if that portion is now some how invalid and replaced, what about the rest of the OT? Where is the new creation story that supersedes the old one?
Just Wondering
 
Ok guys I'm new to this site, in fact this is my first post.

I guess you could call me an agnostic, if I undestand what the means correctly?

One of my questions is this. If the Bible is 100% true literally then every word of it (old and new testament) should be followed to the letter, correct? If you beleive the creation story literally then shouldn't you also consider and abide by all of it and not be able to pick and choose verses or books that you agree with, correct?

If you agree with the above statements how do you feel about theses verses from the old testament:
Exodus 35:2, Deuteronomy 21:18-21 and 22:13-21, Leviticus 20:13

Do you take these literally, why? Do they really make sense to you? Also if you don't take them literally why would you take any of the old testament literally?
Alan

The bible is to me a guide to my heart.... something that I use to seek out the best parts of myself and something I also use to expose the worst parts of myself. In this I find that I become a better person because god can nurture and fix them respectively.
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
Only one man was swallowed and carried for 3 days. Read JOB Chapters 40 & 41. Sounds like dinosaurs to me...

As for Lot's wife"This remarkable happening is stated matter-of-factly, with no suggestion that it was a special miracle or divine judgment. Lot’s wife "looked back" (the phrase might even be rendered "returned back" or "lagged back") seeking to cling to her luxurious life in Sodom (note Christ’s reference to this in Luke 17:32,33) and was destroyed in the "overthrow" (Genesis 19:25,29) of the city. There are many great deposits of rock salt in the region, probably formed by massive precipitation from thermal brines upwelling from the earth’s deep mantle during the great Flood. Possibly the overthrow buried her in a shower of these salt deposits blown skyward by the explosions. There is also the possibility that she was buried in a shower of volcanic ash, with her body gradually being converted into "salt" over the years following through the process of petrifaction, in a manner similar to that experienced by the inhabitants of Pompeii and Herculaneum in the famous eruption of Mount Vesuvius.


:facepalm: x ten quintillion


quintillion [kwɪnˈtɪljən]
n pl -lions, -lion 1. (Mathematics) (in Britain, France, and Germany) the number represented as one followed by 30 zeros (1030) US and Canadian word nonillion
2. (Mathematics) (in the US and Canada) the number represented as one followed by 18 zeros (1018) Brit word trillion [from Latin quintus fifth + -illion, as in million]
quintillionth adj
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
To me, that is simply not reasonable to accept. However, I can accept the latter concept-- meaning that the Torah was written by a number of people, but that those people were prophets, trying their best to comprehend and transcribe the messages that God gave them; but prophecy is not like a phone call, and when the revelatory visions are experienced by flawed human beings, they can misinterpret what God has shown them, or misremember it, or misunderstand it, and when they compose their experiences into formalized poetry, their own errors and interpretations can hide or twist the message that God intended...which is why, IMO, Judaism teaches us that Torah continues to be made every day, as Jews interpret and reinterpret the laws and the text.

What it boils down to is that the Tanakh was not intended to be taken literally, nor need it be seen as the literal Word of God to be divine and holy in origin. IMO, taking it literally is both erroneous and counterproductive.

wonderful post....

one of the many reasons why a lot of Christianity, especially protestants are, "confused"...at least catholicism continues the tradition of seeing outside the "bible" and constant interpretation (however restricted within catholicism it may be)

I've heard said in thsi forum Martin Luther was an advocate of not going outside the bible.... yet I have heard contrary information to this, does anyone have any opinions or information on this?
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
wonderful post....

one of the many reasons why a lot of Christianity, especially protestants are, "confused"...at least catholicism continues the tradition of seeing outside the "bible" and constant interpretation (however restricted within catholicism it may be)

I've heard said in thsi forum Martin Luther was an advocate of not going outside the bible.... yet I have heard contrary information to this, does anyone have any opinions or information on this?
Martin Luther's advocated nearly everything the Catholic church did. His position on the Bible was the same as the Catholics.
 

Vasilisa Jade

Formerly Saint Tigeress
"Is anything in this existence 100% correct?"

So gods make mistakes?


"but you asked this assuming that I believe in a singular omnipotent benevolent god, and I do not."


The only one making assumptions here is you.

Note: I said, "gods", with a "S" and in the plural form of "god". So clearly I was not talking about a "singular omnipotent benevolent god".

I stand corrected. I see now, I assumed that cause I wasn't using my eyes. lol. I missed the "s" somehow.

So now that that is fixed up I'll redo my response.

Yes, I think gods make mistakes, and I think it is the ones that can't admit it who need to be watched out for. I believe everything to be in a constant state of change/evolution. Arrogance and belief in perfection being attained halts progress and is the byproduct of an overblown ego, so I think.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
In a way, he abided by sola scripture, that the Bible was the only infallible word of God. However, he practiced what the Catholics did as well. There were doctrines outside the Bible that he supported that had little to no actual Biblical backing.

Martin Luther actually went as far as purposely (or at least it certainly looks that way) mistranslating parts of the Bible that he choose to.
 

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
First, we know that by the time the Bible was written, Dinosaurs were extinct. There is no debate on this (at least credible debate).

So logic and reason have to be trusted. First, all that we are given was a description. There is just as much evidence to assume that it was not a dinosaur being described, as it was an elephant. Actually, the latter is much more logical. Looking more closely at the actual Hebrew used, the latter becomes even more logical.


WE, (meaning everyone), does no such thing. You're right, because even I will not debate with a hardhead. And elephants never had tails like a cedar ---- Hebrew not withstanding.
 

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
Floods occur, there is no denying that. Even devastating flood for people who didn't move around a whole lot where, for them, their entire world was devastated.

There is also the lowering of sea levels after the last Ice Age, for which Man was present.

However, there is simply no way possible that a WWF could occur. There is no evidence in archaeological record, and there simply isn't enough water on, or in, the planet.

A FLOOD where the god's flood the entire earth except for one family and a boat full of animals not a local flood story...
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
In a way, he abided by sola scripture, that the Bible was the only infallible word of God. However, he practiced what the Catholics did as well. There were doctrines outside the Bible that he supported that had little to no actual Biblical backing.

Martin Luther actually went as far as purposely (or at least it certainly looks that way) mistranslating parts of the Bible that he choose to.

Thank you!

so really those lutheran naysayers at this forum are grossly uniformed or have some form of agenda....

thank you once again
 

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
1. The dinos died out 65 million years ago. Also, the stomachs of animals are like our own, a man would not be able to survive in an animal's stomach. Lack of air, filled with sea water, and digestive enzymes would see to his demise.

2. Despite searching industriously for two millenia, biblical archaeologists have been unable to locate Sodom or Gomorrah. There is the troublesome fact that there is no non-biblical confirmation of said cities in ancient texts, plus a complete lack of any areas where four cities total where destroyed.

To further dismantle your apologetics, there was no great flood for salt to "percolate up through the crust". Ancient man did not possess explosives powerful enough. And finally, the victims of Pompeii were not turned into salt.

With GOD all things are possible. For thousands of detailed fossils to exist for 300 million years is highly suspect to my way of thinking. Sodom and Gomorrah were overturned. They have found grave sites and what appear to be several reservoirs. And honestly, what one should be looking for is ZOAR ---- it was the only city of the plain spared for Lot's sake...
 
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