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Should the government create a law that requires Congress to balance the budget?

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
The sale of a bond simply moves dollars to savings, liquid to illiquid. It's no different than buying a CD at the bank, at least with respect to its effect on the economy.

It takes the dollars from whomever purchased the bond and gives it to the government to spend. The purchaser of the bond expects those dollars to be returned to them from the government with interest.

With the exception of the fact that the US government is the monopoly issuer of the currency, every one else on earth is a user if they hold dollars.

They use the Fed to control the amount of dollars in circulation.
IDK what "issuer" means exactly. The banks expand the number of "dollars" in circulation. The Fed controls that expansion. The value of the dollar is determined by the market really. So what exactly is it that the government is issuing?

How so? Would you say the same thing about a certificate of deposit?

Sure, basically the bank takes you money and gives it to someone else to use. The bank gives you a very small interest rate for using your money.

While the CD is active, you don't have access to the money. The bank expands your money, the money it has it it's reserves by charging interest of the money it's loaned. It expands the money in circulation. The banks and the government work together to control the value of the dollar through supply and demand.

Could the government issue more dollars? Yes, but they don't. That isn't the way the US government influences the money supply. The government doesn't need to, the banks handle that.

The only way the US government can spend is by using money already in the system(bathtub) because of its monetary policy.

So the argument, could the US government issue/create more money to cover its debt? Yes but it doesn't. The US government chooses not to work this way.
 

EconGuy

Active Member
It takes the dollars from whomever purchased the bond and gives it to the government to spend.

I already quoted multiple Fed Chairman that explained the the government spends by marking up accounts in a computer.

The Fed sells bonds as an operation to decrease reserves and it buys bonds to do the opposite. But the simple fact remains that the Fed cannot buy or sell bonds if the government didn't circulate dollars via spending. Operationally I've already shown that the government spends at the beginning of the year and bond sales and taxes come after, not before. Economists say, "'you can't do a reserve drain (fed buying bonds) without first doing a reserve add (government creating and spending money)

Here is a paper written by the Bank of England which is widely cited as how money is created in the 5 major sovereign money economies, the US, UK, AU, JP and Canada.


And another by Deutsche Bundesbank, though you'll need to get this one translated: https://www.bundesbank.de/resource/...1a/mL/2017-04-geldschoepfungsprozess-data.pdf
They use the Fed to control the amount of dollars in circulation.

Correction, the Fed increases or decreases reserves in the banking system. Dollars are increased when people borrow money, which looks like this:

1694660681441.png

Sure, basically the bank takes you money and gives it to someone else to use.

Again, this is false. banks don't lend deposits as deposits are held as reserves, reserves aren't lent. Banks lend by creating credit, secured by investor capital. That is to say, banks are capital constrained, not reserve constrained.



Here's an article that I think explains money creation pretty well.


And another for good measure.


The government, just like banks, creates money out of thin air, the difference is that bank money is secured by the borrowers promise to repay, or investor capital in the event that the borrower defaults.

All the limitations on government spending, taxing and bond sales are statutory limitations. They are self imposed rules. The government could stop selling bonds tomorrow (create new laws), and while I concede that would create shockwaves and fear in the global economic community because many believe as you do, functionally nothing would prevent the same operations we have right now. Spend first and tax after.

While the CD is active, you don't have access to the money.
Exactly, this is why the Government sells bonds, $32 trillion worth, that's money that's not being used in the economy to drive demand. That is, selling bonds is a way to turn dollars in peoples accounts into reserves in the banking systems.

Could the government issue more dollars?

Every dollar spent each year on the federal budget is a dollar the government's created, every dollar taxed is a dollar that's taken back out of the economy and destroyed. Bond sales, don't give the government more money, it just creates fiscal space as every dollar in a bond is tied up in savings. It's money not driving demand (creating inflation).

The only way the US government can spend is by using money already in the system(bathtub) because of its monetary policy.

If that's true, then you are claiming that fiat economies, pure fiat could never exist, right? Because as I've pointed out several times, the government cannot borrow or tax if money isn't created first and circulated via spending or transfer payments. It would be impossible, right?

And yet, there is nothing that would prevent exactly what I just said in a fiat economy, and in fact, that's exactly how modern fiat economies like the five I named earlier all work. There are slight differences, but fundamentally they all work the same.

Governments create and spend money into their respective economies. Spending is limited by real goods and services and the capacity for labor to make things or provide services.
So the argument, could the US government issue/create more money to cover its debt?

This is exactly how it works, which is to say that the government creates money to make bond payments (though let's not forget that bond sales do the opposite, so all the government is really adding is the money to pay the interest.

Inclemently, let's look at that trend recently...Look at that spike.

1694661835953.png



This explains why the Fed raising rates hasn't slowed the economy as expected, because interest rate increases increase dollars in the economy, that is, raising rates is supposed to be deflationary, it's not, it's inflationary!

Evidence? If higher rates are supposed to decrease borrowing.....

1694662009280.png

IDK what "issuer" means exactly.

The Federal government is the only body with the authority to create US dollars, The Fed does not create new dollars, it uses it's authority to manipulate the money supply though bond purchases and sales to achieve its policy objectives. It does this by increasing and decreasing reserves which in turn create abundance and scarcity of reserves which in turn influence the interest rate.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I already quoted multiple Fed Chairman that explained the the government spends by marking up accounts in a computer.

The Fed sells bonds as an operation to decrease reserves and it buys bonds to do the opposite. But the simple fact remains that the Fed cannot buy or sell bonds if the government didn't circulate dollars via spending. Operationally I've already shown that the government spends at the beginning of the year and bond sales and taxes come after, not before. Economists say, "'you can't do a reserve drain (fed buying bonds) without first doing a reserve add (government creating and spending money)

Here is a paper written by the Bank of England which is widely cited as how money is created in the 5 major sovereign money economies, the US, UK, AU, JP and Canada.


And another by Deutsche Bundesbank, though you'll need to get this one translated: https://www.bundesbank.de/resource/...1a/mL/2017-04-geldschoepfungsprozess-data.pdf


Correction, the Fed increases or decreases reserves in the banking system. Dollars are increased when people borrow money, which looks like this:

View attachment 82151


Again, this is false. banks don't lend deposits as deposits are held as reserves, reserves aren't lent. Banks lend by creating credit, secured by investor capital. That is to say, banks are capital constrained, not reserve constrained.



Here's an article that I think explains money creation pretty well.


And another for good measure.


The government, just like banks, creates money out of thin air, the difference is that bank money is secured by the borrowers promise to repay, or investor capital in the event that the borrower defaults.

All the limitations on government spending, taxing and bond sales are statutory limitations. They are self imposed rules. The government could stop selling bonds tomorrow (create new laws), and while I concede that would create shockwaves and fear in the global economic community because many believe as you do, functionally nothing would prevent the same operations we have right now. Spend first and tax after.


Exactly, this is why the Government sells bonds, $32 trillion worth, that's money that's not being used in the economy to drive demand. That is, selling bonds is a way to turn dollars in peoples accounts into reserves in the banking systems.



Every dollar spent each year on the federal budget is a dollar the government's created, every dollar taxed is a dollar that's taken back out of the economy and destroyed. Bond sales, don't give the government more money, it just creates fiscal space as every dollar in a bond is tied up in savings. It's money not driving demand (creating inflation).



If that's true, then you are claiming that fiat economies, pure fiat could never exist, right? Because as I've pointed out several times, the government cannot borrow or tax if money isn't created first and circulated via spending or transfer payments. It would be impossible, right?

And yet, there is nothing that would prevent exactly what I just said in a fiat economy, and in fact, that's exactly how modern fiat economies like the five I named earlier all work. There are slight differences, but fundamentally they all work the same.

Governments create and spend money into their respective economies. Spending is limited by real goods and services and the capacity for labor to make things or provide services.


This is exactly how it works, which is to say that the government creates money to make bond payments (though let's not forget that bond sales do the opposite, so all the government is really adding is the money to pay the interest.

Inclemently, let's look at that trend recently...Look at that spike.

View attachment 82152


This explains why the Fed raising rates hasn't slowed the economy as expected, because interest rate increases increase dollars in the economy, that is, raising rates is supposed to be deflationary, it's not, it's inflationary!

Evidence? If higher rates are supposed to decrease borrowing.....

View attachment 82153


The Federal government is the only body with the authority to create US dollars, The Fed does not create new dollars, it uses it's authority to manipulate the money supply though bond purchases and sales to achieve its policy objectives. It does this by increasing and decreasing reserves which in turn create abundance and scarcity of reserves which in turn influence the interest rate.

This is a different way of looking at the monetary system. I see it from the Neoclassical view which is how the Fed and US Treasury present it.

Even economists have disagreement about how this system works. However, I'm currently looking into your alternate view with an open mind but may continue to criticize it once I understand it better.

That's all I can say for now.
 

Onasander

Member
A balanced budget law would be ruled unconstitutional. Congress can't pass laws that restricts the powers of future congresses.

A constitutional amendment would be required.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
I'll say up front that I'm against this idea. If you think it's a good idea explain the benefits that you think make it worthwhile.

-Cheers.
Probably not.
For one thing, a balanced budget doesn't mean the debt will decrease.
For another thing, there can be a legitimate reason to increase debt.
And thirdly, many states require balanced budgets, but this does not mean that they are the most financially stable.

That said, in the current financial situation the government has a large and increasingly large relative debt. For that reason, something must be done to slow the debt. A balanced budget, while not necessarily the best idea, may be one way to at least start to do that.
 
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