Should there be liberty for the intolerant?

[Revoltingest]

Good question! I think the vital word is "primarily." I have it, but it's declining! I'm rather disengaging of late - I cancelled my party membership last month. I view humanism as more speciesist than I can relate to. The problem for this planet is humans. imo.

There are indeed too many.
Common solutions ignore this, & merely
enable support more over-population.
This'll cause further paving of the land,
& depleting the seas of life.

 

[Azrael Antilla]

Some are mixed more in one direction then the other.
Nazis & socialists have much more in common than
the latter will admit. So it's rather myopic & hypocritical
for them to link Nazis only with the right.

There is a misleading impression you're giving that because some neo Nazi parties advocate leftist economic positions, they are leftist. That is just ignorant frankly.

Fascism advocates a mixed economic system wherby private corporations are under the direct control of the executive, the government, as are nationalised public bodies.

This is not what Engels and Marx espoused. Fascism is the traditional militaristic protectionist economic system of the Nazi party of Germany and of the dictatorships of Italy and Spain.

What makes Nazis truly right wing, are their ultra conservative reactionary anti liberal authoritarian ethno-nationalist ideological narratives. Not their economic position, which is not Marxism.


Their singularly most important identifying characteristics. That differentiates them from socialists, especially democratic or liberal socialists.

 

[Revoltingest]

There is a misleading impression you're giving that because some neo Nazi parties advocate leftist economic positions, they are leftist. That is just ignorant frankly.

Nay, I'm correcting misimpressions promulgated by the left.
Ignorance comes when the evidence I've offered is either
ignored or just denied out of hand.

Fascism advocates a mixed economic system wherby private corporations are under the direct control of the executive, the government, as are nationalised public bodies.

You're describing traits of socialism.

This is not what Engels and Marx espoused. Fascism is the traditional militaristic protectionist economic system of the Nazi party of Germany and of the dictatorships of Italy and Spain.

Marx & Engels can espouse what they want, but socialism
is what it is...not forever some historical original fantasy.
Dictionaries are useful to learn the standard meaning of words.

The same can be said of capitalism. It too isn't what early
advocate Adam Smith said, ie, that it's guided by the invisible
hand of God. It's actually the "invisible hand" of stochastic
processes.

What makes Nazis truly right wing, are their ultra conservative reactionary anti liberal authoritarian ethno-nationalist ideological narratives. Not their economic position, which is not Marxism.

And what makes them also left wing is their wanting a command
economy (socialism). Moreover, nationalism doesn't know any
strictly left or strictly right orientation....it can afflict any system,
eg, N Korea, Germany, USA.

Their singularly most important identifying characteristics. That differentiates them from socialists, especially democratic or liberal socialists.

I'm not the one denying the identifying traits of either socialism
or naziism, ie, the shared goal of a command economy. Moreover,
both also tend strongly towards authoritarianism & oppression.
To deny this is to ignore the historical reality of both.

 

[Azrael Antilla]

Nay, I'm correcting misimpressions promulgated by the left.
Ignorance comes when the evidence I've offered is either
ignored or just denied out of hand.

You're describing traits of socialism.

Marx & Engels can espouse what they want, but socialism
is what it is...not forever some historical original fantasy.
Dictionaries are useful to learn the standard meaning of words.

The same can be said of capitalism. It too isn't what early
advocate Adam Smith said, ie, that it's guided by the invisible
hand of God. It's actually the "invisible hand" of stochastic
processes.

And what makes them also left wing is their wanting a command
economy (socialism). Moreover, nationalism doesn't know any
strictly left or strictly right orientation....it can afflict any system,
eg, N Korea, Germany, USA.

I'm not the one denying the identifying traits of either socialism
or naziism, ie, the shared goal of a command economy. Moreover,
both also tend strongly towards authoritarianism & oppression.
To deny this is to ignore the historical reality of both.

A survivalist economy is a command economy. A national emergency system such as a war economy is a command economy. Socialism does not equal command economy. That's false.

 

[Azrael Antilla]

Nay, I'm correcting misimpressions promulgated by the left.
Ignorance comes when the evidence I've offered is either
ignored or just denied out of hand.

You're describing traits of socialism.

Marx & Engels can espouse what they want, but socialism
is what it is...not forever some historical original fantasy.
Dictionaries are useful to learn the standard meaning of words.

The same can be said of capitalism. It too isn't what early
advocate Adam Smith said, ie, that it's guided by the invisible
hand of God. It's actually the "invisible hand" of stochastic
processes.

And what makes them also left wing is their wanting a command
economy (socialism). Moreover, nationalism doesn't know any
strictly left or strictly right orientation....it can afflict any system,
eg, N Korea, Germany, USA.

I'm not the one denying the identifying traits of either socialism
or naziism, ie, the shared goal of a command economy. Moreover,
both also tend strongly towards authoritarianism & oppression.
To deny this is to ignore the historical reality of both.

You keep banging on about economy. Nazis don't give a crap about economy. They have other far more significant priorities that dictate their political narrative.

 

[Revoltingest]

A survivalist economy is a command economy. A national emergency system such as a war economy is a command economy. Socialism does not equal command economy. That's false.

Wrongo pongo.
Once again, dictionaries come to the rescue.

https://www.wordnik.com/words/command economy

command economy
from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.

• noun An economy that is planned and controlled by a central administration, as in the former Soviet Union.

Definition of COMMAND ECONOMY
Definition of command economy
: an economic system in which activity is controlled by a central authority and the means of production are publicly owned

 

[Azrael Antilla]

Nay, I'm correcting misimpressions promulgated by the left.
Ignorance comes when the evidence I've offered is either
ignored or just denied out of hand.

You're describing traits of socialism.

Marx & Engels can espouse what they want, but socialism
is what it is...not forever some historical original fantasy.
Dictionaries are useful to learn the standard meaning of words.

The same can be said of capitalism. It too isn't what early
advocate Adam Smith said, ie, that it's guided by the invisible
hand of God. It's actually the "invisible hand" of stochastic
processes.

And what makes them also left wing is their wanting a command
economy (socialism). Moreover, nationalism doesn't know any
strictly left or strictly right orientation....it can afflict any system,
eg, N Korea, Germany, USA.

I'm not the one denying the identifying traits of either socialism
or naziism, ie, the shared goal of a command economy. Moreover,
both also tend strongly towards authoritarianism & oppression.
To deny this is to ignore the historical reality of both.

So your definition of socialist political theory is largely unconnected to the political theories of Marx Engels and Trotsky? Just your dictionary. As for communist dictatorships like China and Soviet Russia. I'd never advocate state communism. Some far leftists or hard leftists might. Not me bro.

 

[Azrael Antilla]

https://www.wordnik.com/words/command economy

• noun An economy that is planned and controlled by a central administration, as in the former Soviet Union.

Yeah a state communist dictatorship. That's not socialism. Not what any democratic socialist advocates.

 

[Revoltingest]

You keep banging on about economy. Nazis don't give a crap about economy. They have other far more significant priorities that dictate their political narrative.

Economics is very much part of nazism.
It cannot be ignored.
Read the platform of the American Nazi Party.
Are you claiming they don't address it as a fundamental?

 

[Revoltingest]

So your definition of socialist political theory is largely unconnected to the political theories of Marx Engels and Trotsky?

They can have all the theories they want.
Socialism arose independently of them.
It was what it was, & is what it is.
Not what mistaken theoreticians claim.

Would you claim that capitalism is solely defined
by what Adam Smith said? Of course not.
Thus "socialism" should be defined as the term is
actually used, & judged by what has actually been
implemented.

When theory is counter to reality, reality always prevails.
Tis theory that must be adjusted to comport.

 

[Azrael Antilla]

Economics is very much part of nazism.
It cannot be ignored.
Read the platform of the American Nazi Party.
Are you claiming they don't address it?

So American fascists are trying to attract low paid workers and poor people in general with leftist economic positions like a generous welfare state and free health care. Quel surprise. The Nazis promised and delivered on many similar things after they took power. They still murdered all the high ranking socialists and purged them from the Nazi party on the Night of Long Knives. Then Hitler ordered all socialist and communist activists to be arrested and put in work camps. Installing a fascist dictatorship.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah a state communist dictatorship. That's not socialism. Not what any democratic socialist advocates.

Socialism is defined solely by the people owning the means
of production. (The "people" will always be whoever governs.)
The form of government is independent (per definition), other
than the natural consequence of great authority being necessary
to prevent humans' tendency towards free economic association.

 

[Azrael Antilla]

They can have all the theories they want.
Socialism arose independently of them.
It was what it was, & is what it is.
Not what mistaken theoreticians claim.

Would you claim that capitalism is solely defined
by what Adam Smith said? Of course not.
Thus "socialism" should be defined as the term is
actually used, & judged by what has actually been
implemented.

When theory is counter to reality, reality always prevails.
Tis theory that must be adjusted to comport.

We will see then. Because I see the strongesy shift to socialism in the USA, in recent years, I've ever seen.

 

[Azrael Antilla]

Socialism is defined solely by the people owning the means
of production. (The "people" will always be whoever governs.)
The form of government is independent (per definition), other
than the natural consequence of great authority being necessary
to prevent humans' tendency towards free economic association.

Wrong. Socialism is commonly defined as the economic system in which workers own the means of production they work for.

State communism advocates state ownership of the means of production on behalf of the workers, by the people.

 

[Revoltingest]

So American fascists are trying to attract low paid workers and poor people in general with leftist economic positions like a generous welfare state and free health care.

Whether they're true believers or political panderers
isn't for me to judge. But this position is consistent
with historical Nazis.

The Nazis promised and delivered on many similar things after they took power. They still murdered all the high ranking socialists and purged them from the Nazi party on the Night of Long Knives. Then Hitler ordered all socialist and communist activists to be arrested and put in work camps. Installing a fascist dictatorship.

Historically, socialists have been prone to murdering their
fellow socialists, eg, USSR, N Korea, Khmer Rouge, PRC.
So they & Nazis have yet another trait in common.

 

[Azrael Antilla]

Socialism is defined solely by the people owning the means
of production. (The "people" will always be whoever governs.)
The form of government is independent (per definition), other
than the natural consequence of great authority being necessary
to prevent humans' tendency towards free economic association.

Personally I don't care for free market liberalism. Since the free market is indifferent to human suffering and human dignity.

 

[Revoltingest]

We will see then. Because I see the strongesy shift to socialism in the USA, in recent years, I've ever seen.

They might ultimately win.
I've long known that our march in the direction of socialism
is inexorable. This is because promising largesse paid for
by the wealthy will attract poorer folk.

I'm a Libertarian, ya know. I've long been
comfortable not being on the winning side.

 

[Azrael Antilla]

Whether they're true believers or political panderers
isn't for me to judge. But this position is consistent
with historical Nazis.

Historically, socialists have been prone to murdering their
fellow socialists, eg, USSR, N Korea, Khmer Rouge, PRC.
So they & Nazis have yet another trait in common.

I imagine internal murder and power struggle is pretty common in all authoritarian regimes. Your demonisation is relentless.

 

[Azrael Antilla]

They might ultimately win.
I've long known that our march in the direction of socialism
is inexorable. This is because promising largesse paid for
by the wealthy will attract poorer folk.

I'm a Libertarian, ya know. I've long been
comfortable not being on the winning side.

I don't care what economic system we use. So long as it is equitable and sustainable. Providing the basics for all.

 

[Revoltingest]

Personally I don't care for free market liberalism. Since the free market is indifferent to human suffering and human dignity.

Socialism has an even worse record of causing
suffering & indignity. Empirically, capitalism offers
the potential for better.
How many S Koreans escape to N Korea?
How many boat people flee to Cuba?
Was the Iron Curtain designed to keep people out?
Were the Killing Fields a private endeavor?