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Should there be liberty for the intolerant?

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Either I've been spending too much time on Reddit, or there is an uprising in a certain political agenda that I believe would lead us straight to fascism. It's typically known as the "woke culture". I'm sure it's been talked about on here before.

I find that Reddit is a markedly unsuitable platform for any kind of useful political discourse. It is mainly designed around evoking reactions from its users, and many users post overly polarized, insufficiently thought-out arguments as a result. Relying on upvotes and others' approval (or disapproval) as the primary driver of interactions isn't a solid foundation for a discussion platform.

I also believe there is a crucial point to note here: if one is worried about being led "straight to fascism," it seems more logical to be more concerned about the rising tide of neo-Nazism than the fact that a subset of neo-Nazis face physical inconvenience when publicly advertising their beliefs, which inherently include incitement of violence that is of a far more virulent and historically dangerous variety than a punch could ever be.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Unlimited freedom of speech and nonviolent protest is how minorities speak for themselves, and it doesn't matter if these minorities are bigots, everybody deserves the right to stand up for themselves against what they believe is oppression.

Unlimited freedom of speech pretty much doesn't exist in any country, and rightfully so. Inciting crimes, for example, isn't covered as a legal form of free speech in the U.S. or anywhere else that I'm aware of.

I see no tangible difference between inciting crimes or violence and publicly advertising Nazism, since multiple forms of criminal activities and violent crimes (e.g., genocide and racial violence) are inherent within the latter. Nazism isn't just intolerant (and I do believe expressing intolerance per se shouldn't always be banned); it's also inciting of racial violence. That's the most dangerous aspect of it.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
"Accosted a black man" is a trigger for me. I don't know the details of what this means but if a drunk "accosts" another drunk in a bar and blows are thrown, it's not a freedom of speech issue.
Yeah. It doesn't trigger me, but if some neoNazi punk who harassed someone gets revenge whacked, I can't condone vigilantism but I can't really say it's worth condemning.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
According to free speech advocates I am free to call your mother a whore to her face in front of you. But you are not allowed to punch me in the nose for doing it. And there are people who will do this kind of thing just because they can. And maybe even hoping to get you to react in an illegal manner.

These are people who seek to tear our society apart. To do harm to others by abusing their own right to speak freely. The left wants to tighten up on this right to speak freely because the right wants to use it to insult others and to tear our culture apart. They deliberately wear swastikas in primarily Jewish neighborhoods. They deliberately wear klan emblems, outfits, and flags in black neighborhoods. They deliberately mock handicapped people, insult gay people, and tell lies constantly about anyone who dares to oppose them. And then when someone finally punched them in the face for doing these things, they play the victim as loudly as they possibly can.

Half of our society now is reverting to being the equivalent of schoolyard bullies because the teacher is not punishing them for it, in the name of free speech. I think it's time we tighten up the rules on free speech and punish these bullies that are deliberately abusing that right. At least for a while. Because the bullies will not stop on their own. They have to BE stopped. And sometimes that means giving them a punch in the nose. Or even repeated punches in the nose, until they learn to behave with respect toward others.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Either I've been spending too much time on Reddit, or there is an uprising in a certain political agenda that I believe would lead us straight to fascism. It's typically known as the "woke culture". I'm sure it's been talked about on here before.

I recently saw a Reddit post where a guy sporting a Swastika on his shoulder got punched in the face by a black guy. Thousands of comments were praising this, and it worries me.

I got into a debate in the thread that followed, I voiced my opinion that physical resentment to nonphysical opinion is exactly what the problem is in society. I argued that attacking these narrow minded sort of people just creates hate all around: 1) The Neo-nazi being attacked is going to be reinforced in his hate people of color because of this experience, 2) Neo-nazi's and other racists and bigots that saw the video are going to have their hate reinforced also. 3) Anti-white racists (which also seems to be a growing thing) are going to have their hate reinforced seeing this "justice" in action. .... etc. ---- A non-violent approach to the Neo-nazi would've spoken more, it would've shown peace from the person of color's side and influenced some bigot opinions to think "PoC aren't so bad", it would've reinforced the idea into some Anti-white racists that peace is a better reaction, etc. The Neo-nazi that was attacked may have been so relieved that he could've become more trusting or accepting of PoC - or not, but whatever the outcome it would've certainly been better than the reinforced hate from being decked in the face.

The debate eventually escalated into freedom of speech, whether or not we should tolerate the intolerant in society. I argued that people shouldn't be attacked for their opinions, they should be kept in check by reason and logic. When the bigoted opinions are no longer willing to meet at the level of reason and become harassment, that's when retaliation is necessary. Simply wearing a Swatsika is NOT harassment.

-----

The main point I'd like to discuss is how important it is to keep freedom of speech truly free. We shouldn't silence anybody for any opinion. Opinions aren't threatening, actions are. If we are to limit what a person is allowed to preach, speak about, believe, then that's the fertile grounds for fascism. If you are familiar with 1984, I think the Thought Police would become a literal thing if we start arresting people for wearing Swatsikas, using wrong gender pronouns, voicing their dislike for homosexuality - just like if we started arresting people for wearing BLM symbols, identifying as non-binary, or voicing their dislike for Christianity. It's all the same.

Unlimited freedom of speech and nonviolent protest is how minorities speak for themselves, and it doesn't matter if these minorities are bigots, everybody deserves the right to stand up for themselves against what they believe is oppression. Once we start silencing people, where does it end? Once Father Government has control over the words we say then the next thing you know we'll be unable to speak against the government at all.

I'm not a very political person, but that's something I know for a fact. We need to stop this censorship crap. We can't be banning stand-up comedians for offending us, we can't be punching people in the face for wearing symbols that offend us, we can't be accusing people of being transphobic or racist for any little thing people say (that's harassment just as much as actual transphobia and racism is). The majority will always speak the loudest, but this doesn't mean the minority should have no say. Are we really becoming better as a society by doing this thing, or just remaining the same but turning the tables?

As much as I am in favor of free speech... A line has to be drawn, if anything at least to exclude Nazism and the likes. Hateful speech like that does lead to hateful actions.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
As much as I am in favor of free speech... A line has to be drawn, if anything at least to exclude Nazism and the likes. Hateful speech like that does lead to hateful actions.
And socialism....it has always led to oppression, deaths, & starvation.
Make advocating it illegal (same as nazism).
Islam & Christianity are also on the table.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I'm not a very political person, but that's something I know for a fact. We need to stop this censorship crap. We can't be banning stand-up comedians for offending us, we can't be punching people in the face for wearing symbols that offend us, we can't be accusing people of being transphobic or racist for any little thing people say (that's harassment just as much as actual transphobia and racism is).
Interesting that you end a diatribe that's supposedly about freedom of speech with a call to limit freedom of speech.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I got into a debate in the thread that followed, I voiced my opinion that physical resentment to nonphysical opinion is exactly what the problem is in society. I argued that attacking these narrow minded sort of people just creates hate all around: 1) The Neo-nazi being attacked is going to be reinforced in his hate people of color because of this experience, 2) Neo-nazi's and other racists and bigots that saw the video are going to have their hate reinforced also. 3) Anti-white racists (which also seems to be a growing thing) are going to have their hate reinforced seeing this "justice" in action. .... etc. ---- A non-violent approach to the Neo-nazi would've spoken more, it would've shown peace from the person of color's side and influenced some bigot opinions to think "PoC aren't so bad", it would've reinforced the idea into some Anti-white racists that peace is a better reaction, etc. The Neo-nazi that was attacked may have been so relieved that he could've become more trusting or accepting of PoC - or not, but whatever the outcome it would've certainly been better than the reinforced hate from being decked in the face.
One way to address this problem - and I'm even willing to help: more videos of people punching Nazis. Just make sure that the punchers are white.

There are plenty of thess videos out there already, so you don't need to even commit a "crime" yourself. Just search for videos of people punching Nazis, grab a whole bunch where the puncher is white, and do your part to make them go viral.

If - as you fear - some racist is forming their view of the world just based on this one video, then we need to give him way more videos. His impression of things is going to be very different with 20 Nazi-punching videos where the punchers are 95% white than it would be with only 1 Nazi-punching video where the punchers are 100% PoC.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
No.
Evil would be a difficult thing to quantify.
Nonetheless, all those I cited have been shown to be evil.

Did I successfully head off the "False equivalency!" deflection?

But don't you think there are versions of Christianity, Islam and Socialism that are not evil per se? Do you agree that all versions of Nazism are evil?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
But don't you think there are versions of Christianity, Islam and Socialism that are not evil per se? Do you agree that all versions of Nazism are evil?
I've known nazis who weren't violent, & didn't advocate violence.
(Had one here on RF.)
Those are the actions to make illegal...not membership in a group.

Christianity, Islam, & socialism have left many millions dead,
maimed, tortured, & oppressed. So if we're to ban membership
or symbols of Nazis, why limit it to just this one group? If we're
to return to McCarthyism, apply it to all dangerous groups, eh.
 
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Bodie

Member
The Lincoln project recently admitted to planting fake White supremacists at a republican rally, does this not undermine democracy and cause division?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
According to free speech advocates I am free to call your mother a whore to her face in front of you. But you are not allowed to punch me in the nose for doing it. And there are people who will do this kind of thing just because they can. And maybe even hoping to get you to react in an illegal manner.

If the person was obviously mentally ill, homeless, broke, disheveled in appearance, with slurred speech and possibly developmentally disabled - would there really be that much satisfaction in punching such a pathetic individual, regardless of what symbols they wore or what they said? Is it reasonable to consider such a person a "clear and present danger"?

On the other hand, what if it was a cop with several other cops with him, calling someone's mother a whore? Would you still punch him? If not, why not? That would be a far greater danger to society than some pathetic homeless guy mindlessly lashing out who whoever happens to be passing by.

Half of our society now is reverting to being the equivalent of schoolyard bullies because the teacher is not punishing them for it, in the name of free speech. I think it's time we tighten up the rules on free speech and punish these bullies that are deliberately abusing that right. At least for a while. Because the bullies will not stop on their own. They have to BE stopped. And sometimes that means giving them a punch in the nose. Or even repeated punches in the nose, until they learn to behave with respect toward others.

My observation is that bullies tend to target those whom they see as weaker, someone who would be more easily beaten up than someone who is stronger or who has strong friends. In fact, a lot of times, whenever these Nazis or Klansmen try to organize a protest, it's oftentimes a handful of them needing hundreds of cops to fend off the vast numbers of counter-protesters who would tear them to shreds if they didn't have police protection. If a bully is outnumbered a thousand to one, he's not a bully anymore. He's prey for other bullies.

I recall a photograph from a KKK demonstration from the 1990s. The counter-protesters vastly outnumbered the KKK, and the photo showed a young black girl shielding a Klansman to protect him from the angry mobs who wanted to do violence to him.

It was different during the 1950s and 60s, when the KKK and the white racist establishment were in a stronger and more entrenched position throughout society, particularly in the South. They really were bullies (much worse than bullies, actually), and they held the upper hand. But they couldn't have been stopped with violence, and many Civil Rights leaders at the time preached against using violence, as they knew that it wouldn't work.

Ultimately, the KKK was broken and mainly forced underground. They got rid of the white sheets and switched to suits-and-ties. The "KKK" became the "CCC," as most of them publicly denounced racism and claimed to be conservative, capitalist, and Christian. They're the ones to be more worried about, as they're smart enough not to wear Nazi regalia or silly costumes.

But in this case, with a lone individual wandering Seattle wearing a swastika - it seems rather pathetic. It's an extremely foolish and demented individual who was apparently unaware of the danger he was putting himself in. Maybe he wanted someone to beat him up, or maybe he's mentally ill. There's little information about who this person was or what he was doing there. It reminds me of Die Hard 3 where Bruce Willis' character was coerced into standing on a street in Harlem with a sign that said "I hate [n-word]." You just know that something is wrong with this picture.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I recall a photograph from a KKK demonstration from the 1990s. The counter-protesters vastly outnumbered the KKK, and the photo showed a young black girl shielding a Klansman to protect him from the angry mobs who wanted to do violence to him.
That was in my town.
The teenager who saved a man with an SS tattoo
Keysha-Thomas-feature.jpg

There never was any indication that he belonged to the KKK.
What riled the anti-KKK demonstrators was his Confederate
flag on his clothing.

My office was just a couple blocks from the demonstration.
Many of the anti-KKK demonstrators wore masks, & openly
carried weapons like clubs & knives. The cops stood back
to let it all happen without interference. Eventually, they
must've taken some interest, because I got a whiff of pepper
gas wafting westward towards us.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Either I've been spending too much time on Reddit, or there is an uprising in a certain political agenda that I believe would lead us straight to fascism. It's typically known as the "woke culture".

I think you've picked the wrong side of that cultural war to describe as fascistic. Fascism is antithetical to democracy. Who incited a Capitol insurrection over the results of a free and fair election? Antifa means antifascism. They people crying "Antifa! Antifa!" while holding tiki torches are Profa - profascism. They wear the symbols and chant the chants. We saw it in Charlottesville, and in the insurrection.

The Republican party itself is nearly perfectly united in its unwillingness to call January 6th an attack on democracy. Multiple members are in the crosshairs of the House Select Committee now. They deflect and obstruct as the guilty must. None of them want the records of their communications on or immediately before the attack looked at.

Fascism isn't intolerance for somebody wearing a swastika and punching him in the face. That's a reaction to intolerance, and has the same status as a reaction to being shot at by returning fire.

Intolerance is wearing the swastika. And punching him in the face for so doing is intolerance of intolerance. However undesirable that response might be, it's not rooted in a fascist mentality.

This is neither a paradox nor hypocrisy, if tolerance is properly defined and limited to toleration of the tolerant only - a rational position). Once again, returning fire has a different moral status than initiating fire unprovoked.

We need to watch out for this. Paradox of tolerance - Wikipedia

It's an interesting thing to consider, but there is no paradox if tolerance is understood to mean mutually tolerant people living together in harmony, with those intolerant of them excluded (not tolerated). That's perfectly reasonable.

I'm reminded of the Republicans criticizing Biden for failing to get them to work with him after campaigning for unity. But the Republicans are not even American any longer except technically. They are enemies of Americanism, including democracy, egalitarianism, church-state separation, and the rule of law. They have no interest in any element in the preamble to the constitution. These are not people to unify with or even tolerate. They are people to be excluded and disempowered. They are not fellow anythings, not the loyal opposition, but the enemy. There is nothing hypocritical about wanting a society of tolerant people, and excluding those that are enemies of that philosophy.

From your link: "The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant." As I said, it's neither paradoxical nor self-contradictory be intolerant of such a presence. It's rational.

I'm often puzzled why so many people think the US is such a safe place. And I feel its becoming more unsafe as hostilities grow.

That's a topic of particular interest in my expat community here in Mexico, where 20-30% of the local population is American or Canadian. Many of us, including my wife and me, have never been visited by most or all relatives living north of our northern border because they are afraid. We've lived here a dozen years without feeling a need to go somewhere safer, but that means nothing to these people. Their media tell them that it is less safe here.

Their own media show us what they consider more safe, with examples of riots, people being shot in the back by police, insurrection, overt racism and racial violence, depressing urban gun death counts each weekend, school shootings, lead in the water, angry outbursts over vaccine mandates, extreme weather to beat the band, etc..

It's safer here. The cartels limit their violence to business interests, not people that aren't in the business, fighting it (journalists, judges, politicians, police) or relatives of any of those. Unfortunate as that is, it's not a threat to expats. Yet our American relatives are afraid to visit us. Shaking my head.

And certainly the left can be as fascist / authoritarian as the right.

Disagree. The violence from the left is reactive, and not motivated by antidemocratic or authoritarian urges. The left is defending democracy in America by itself now. Trump groomed his followers to violently overturn a free and fair election using violence and terrorism.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Disagree. The violence from the left is reactive, and not motivated by antidemocratic or authoritarian urges. The left is defending democracy in America by itself now. Trump groomed his followers to violently overturn a free and fair election using violence and terrorism.
Think more broadly...."left" would include N Korea, USSR, etc.
But the Antifa types also want government to exercise much
control over us, their claims to be "anarchist" notwithstanding.
Fascism / authoritarianism can be left or right.

Odd thing....
You quoted my post, but RF did not alert me to this.
Its platform is falling down on the job.
 
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