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Should there be liberty for the intolerant?

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
What I don't have in common with any Nazi. Is racist ethno-nationalist sentiment. That is the defining feature of the ideology. The race struggle. Not economics not the environment. Savvy?
To a a certain, small but nevertheless significant portion of modern American conservativism, what was revolting about the Nazis was not their antisemitism, their racism, or their notions of ethnic and genetic purity, but the fact that Hitler didn't immediately abolish Bismarck's welfare state when he had the chance.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Precisely, I do not wish to embarrass myself by becoming hostile. As I am capable of better.
Excellent! We are all (ideally) a work in progress.
Even I have improved ever so slightly since joining
some 12 years ago. (Of course, some might argue
against my vision of what constitutes "improvement".)
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I absolutely do not agree with you. As for Nazis being human. Yes, legally. However they surrendered their humanity, when they subscribed to ethno-nationalism. The defining feature of fascism and Nazism. Deny all you like. I care not.
Too bad. To change minds is better accomplished by
befriending & persuading than punching & vilifying.
But we will each respond as we are compelled.

What is your view of Daryl Davis's work in depleting
the ranks of the KKK? I'm genuinely curious.
 

Azrael Antilla

Active Member
Too bad. To change minds is better accomplished by
befriending & persuading than punching & vilifying.
But we will each respond as we are compelled.

What is your view of Daryl Davis's work in depleting
the ranks of the KKK? I'm genuinely curious.
To be honest I've never heard of him. Sorry.

My brother is a member of the Proud Boys, he's a Nazi through and through. Loves Trump. The works. I hate his beliefs and his politics, and if we ever meet on a future battlefield, I will treat him the same as any other Nazi or alt right fighter. Brother or not. I do love him. However, I love the innocent more. If he ever ends up presenting a real threat to them. I will destroy him. I have no choice.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
To be honest I've never heard of him. Sorry. My brother is a member of the Proud Boys, he's a Nazi through and through. Loves Trump. The works. I hate his beliefs and his politics, and if we ever meet on a future battlefield, I will treat him the same as any other Nazi or alt right fighter. Brother or not. I do love him. However, I love the innocent more. If he ever ends up presenting a real threat to them. I will destroy him. I have no choice.
I often encourage people to check out his success at
befriending KKK members, with the result of so many
leaving the organization. The man is a model for the
power of civility, friendliness, & thoughtful discussion.
Daryl Davis - Wikipedia
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
There should be steps taken to educate people. It is not possible to arrest people merely for their beliefs. In a free society one has to tolerate some "wrongs".
I think the word "tolerate" gets used in different ways in this discussion, and it's important to say which question we're talking about:

- should someone be imprisoned or fined for expressing a particular view?

- should they be protected from social consequences for expressing their view?

- should they be entitled to a particular platform from which to express their view more widely?

In the OP, @The Sum of Awe touched on things like stand-up comics... but nobody's talking about imprisoning stand-up comics. Someone saying "maybe this guy shouldn't get any more Netflix specials (which isn't something that anyone is entitled to anyway)" is not the same as "let's lock this guy up." It's not even an issue of magnitude; these two responses are based on very different rationales.
 

Azrael Antilla

Active Member
I often encourage people to check out his success at
befriending KKK members, with the result of so many
leaving the organization. The man is a model for the
power of civility, friendliness, & thoughtful discussion.
Daryl Davis - Wikipedia
Just realized. I have come across him. An ex kkk member right? His methodology certainly seems productive. With face to face confrontation, its easier to communicate effectively. With the medium of text alone, not so easy.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Just realized. I have come across him. An ex kkk member right? His methodology certainly seems productive. With face to face confrontation, its easier to communicate. With the medium of text alone, not so easy.
Ex KKK member?
I don't think so.
Unless the KKK had a really aggressive affirmative
action campaign. He just doesn't look like he'd belong.
Daryl-Davis_PC-Edwin-Remsberg-Photographs-1024x681.jpg
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Have you heard of the shouting fire in a theatre thing?

With freedom comes responsibility. Or, at least, it should.

"Woke" is so last year. :p
Today, despite the "crowded theater" quote's legal irrelevance, advocates of censorship have not stopped trotting it out as thefinal word on the lawful limits of the First Amendment. As Rottman wrote, for this reason, it's "worse than useless in defining the boundaries of constitutional speech. When used metaphorically, it can be deployed against any unpopular speech." Worse, its advocates are tacitly endorsing one of the broadest censorship decisions ever brought down by the Court. It is quite simply, as Ken White calls it, "the most famous and pervasive lazy cheat in American dialogue about free speech."
It’s Time to Stop Using the ‘Fire in a Crowded Theater’ Quote

Using the "shouting fire in a theatre" argument is so last century. :D
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Today, despite the "crowded theater" quote's legal irrelevance, advocates of censorship have not stopped trotting it out as thefinal word on the lawful limits of the First Amendment. As Rottman wrote, for this reason, it's "worse than useless in defining the boundaries of constitutional speech. When used metaphorically, it can be deployed against any unpopular speech." Worse, its advocates are tacitly endorsing one of the broadest censorship decisions ever brought down by the Court. It is quite simply, as Ken White calls it, "the most famous and pervasive lazy cheat in American dialogue about free speech."
It’s Time to Stop Using the ‘Fire in a Crowded Theater’ Quote


Using the "shouting fire in a theatre" argument is so last century. :D
The <funny> rating notwithstanding, I agree with the quoted text.
And I especially wage philosophical war with those ferriners who
argue that we Ameristanians should change our Constitution to
curb what they variously call "hate speech".
Is that a power I want given to this court or Congress? Any court
or Congress? No way, Jose.

An example of Eurostanian thinking & legislating that I loathe...
Bardot fined for 'savages' jibe against French Indian Ocean island
 
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Secret Chief

Very strong language
Today, despite the "crowded theater" quote's legal irrelevance, advocates of censorship have not stopped trotting it out as thefinal word on the lawful limits of the First Amendment. As Rottman wrote, for this reason, it's "worse than useless in defining the boundaries of constitutional speech. When used metaphorically, it can be deployed against any unpopular speech." Worse, its advocates are tacitly endorsing one of the broadest censorship decisions ever brought down by the Court. It is quite simply, as Ken White calls it, "the most famous and pervasive lazy cheat in American dialogue about free speech."
It’s Time to Stop Using the ‘Fire in a Crowded Theater’ Quote


Using the "shouting fire in a theatre" argument is so last century. :D
I admit it's lazy shorthand, but I think the point is made. Freedom of speech does not exist alone in a vacuum. No amount of extra extra free speech would have prevented the Blitzkrieg. The Amendment/Constitution aspect I wouldn't know about, not being an American.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
If you're mentally ill and get beaten up for wearing a swastika then perhaps that's on those responsible for the welfare of the individual in question.

Yes, although it's also on the person doing the beating. After all, if they're supposedly enlightened enough to oppose Nazism, then they should also be enlightened enough to not pick on mentally ill people. At the very least, they should be able to tell the difference between some pathetic, mentally disabled modern day American and Adolf Hitler. If they think they're one and the same, they would be incorrect.
 
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Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Today, despite the "crowded theater" quote's legal irrelevance, advocates of censorship have not stopped trotting it out as thefinal word on the lawful limits of the First Amendment. As Rottman wrote, for this reason, it's "worse than useless in defining the boundaries of constitutional speech. When used metaphorically, it can be deployed against any unpopular speech." Worse, its advocates are tacitly endorsing one of the broadest censorship decisions ever brought down by the Court. It is quite simply, as Ken White calls it, "the most famous and pervasive lazy cheat in American dialogue about free speech."
It’s Time to Stop Using the ‘Fire in a Crowded Theater’ Quote


Using the "shouting fire in a theatre" argument is so last century. :D

Thing is, it's not even against the law to yell "fire" in a crowded theater, if there really is a fire. It's when there isn't a fire and someone yells "fire" is when it's against the law.

For the record, I don't believe it's against the law to yell "movie" in a crowded fire house.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Hateful speech and actions are evil.
One is NOT free to murder another, without consequences.
Hateful speech is a form of murder.
There must be consequences.

Hitler was last century’s fascist hater.

We have a fresh face (all thinking individuals know of whom I speak) this century, but it’s the same old evil.

The problem with "hateful speech" is it has to be better defined than speech you hate.

To talk about hating a race or a religious people or the disabled. I think people with these opinions do more harm to themselves than anyone else these days.
People who hate others through no fault or action of their own, I prefer they continue to have the freedom to express their hate so we know who they are.

I'd rather be dealing with overt hate than covert hate.

Hitler rose to power through the use of violence as much as anything else. We should IMO use laws to enforce non-violence. I am certainly not threatened by speech as mush as I am by the use of violence.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Thing is, it's not even against the law to yell "fire" in a crowded theater, if there really is a fire. It's when there isn't a fire and someone yells "fire" is when it's against the law.

For the record, I don't believe it's against the law to yell "movie" in a crowded fire house.

As far as I know it's not. I believe there are laws dealing with any damaged caused, people harmed by our actions.
 

Azrael Antilla

Active Member
The <funny> rating notwithstanding, I agree with the quoted text.
And I especially wage philosophical war with those ferriners who
argue that we Ameristanians should change our Constitution to
curb what they variously call "hate speech".
Is that a power I want given to this court or Congress? Any court
or Congress? No way, Jose.

An example of Eurostanian thinking & legislating that I loathe...
Bardot fined for 'savages' jibe against French Indian Ocean island
Hate speech is curbed in the UK. I completely support all measures taken to silence Nazis and their kind. In the public sphere. Since I see no reason to value the so called freedom to spout hatred and incite violence over the freedom to walk down the street, without fear of some piece of crap, exercising their right to free speech by abusing and denigrating people in public.
 

Secret Chief

Very strong language
Hate speech is curbed in the UK. I completely support all measures taken to silence Nazis and their kind. In the public sphere. Since I see no reason to value to the so called freedom to spout hatred and incite violence over the freedom to walk down the street, without fear of some piece of crap, exercising their right to free speech by abusing and denigrating people in public.
No Platform is a real horse to beat for the tories in their culture war.
 
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