I wouldn't have a problem with doing away with gender categories here, either. It would take more education and we would have to incorporate it in school programs.
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Should Transgender Athletes compete in sports?
- Thread starter Epic Beard Man
- Start date
That was just a disgusting, offensive post. For shame.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
@lostwanderingsoul
Was thinking, is a male/sex came into a locker room of girls, of course that would be uncomfortable.
However you're challenging someone with medical illness with someone you feel "wants" to go around changing their sex to feel better.
Legally, how would you solve this without making only X amount of people uncomfortable while Y set don't care?
If your daughter is a child she wouldn't know. Dysphoria is a mind thing. If she is an adult, I'd assume it's how she feels comfortable.
But I get it. It's not about us though. It's a moral and legal issue. If people had their way we'd be in holocaust, children in the streets, and signs and so forth.
Where do You draw the line in comfort level?
Was thinking, is a male/sex came into a locker room of girls, of course that would be uncomfortable.
However you're challenging someone with medical illness with someone you feel "wants" to go around changing their sex to feel better.
Legally, how would you solve this without making only X amount of people uncomfortable while Y set don't care?
If your daughter is a child she wouldn't know. Dysphoria is a mind thing. If she is an adult, I'd assume it's how she feels comfortable.
But I get it. It's not about us though. It's a moral and legal issue. If people had their way we'd be in holocaust, children in the streets, and signs and so forth.
Where do You draw the line in comfort level?
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Thanks Skwim I gotta say some of your posts are a bit controversial but I agree with you this time.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Why is someone bigoted for thinking penises and vaginas should not share the samr dressing rooms?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Lost. It's not about dresses. Many transgender don't even wear dresses etc. Women wear all kinds of clothing. Their sex and cultural men/women dress norms are totally seperate.
As for men's restrooms that's a legal thing. You wouldn't know whose transgender. I'm sure trans don't wear dresses everyday to make men uncomfortable.
You're generalizing.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Here's the thing. Medical condition is still medical despite what one does.
Kind of like I have seizures. No one forces me to take meds. But I'm sane and not dead cause I choose to take them.
Years ago people though I was psychotic. They put us in hospitals. Before then I was demonic. Today according to some churches (personal experience), I have the holy spirit.
It's uncomfortable. A cultural taboo, yes. That's one thing. But that doesn't excuse hormones to dysphoria is like medicine to seizures.
You see the relationship outside of dress and stockings?
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
I draw the line at biology. If God gave you a male organ then you are a male regardless of how you feel about it. If boys want to play with dolls and wear long hair and dresses that is OK. But they are still boys.Just because they "feel like" a girl or "prefer" to be a girl does not change anything.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Yeah. I admit it's uncomfortable when it comes to locker rooms but our biases shouldn't overstep someone else's rights and well-being.
Education is a huge stepping stone, I'm sure.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Sex aside, do you understand the medical condition of gender dysphoria?
A lot of people still don't understand seizures and age and location doesn't help with bias.
But psychological (edit) conditions arent seen as medical in their fact and severity. It took awhile for insurances to acknowledge as such.
Lost
I'm not saying people will get out of cultural taboo thinking around sex. Christians have put down sex for years.
But dysphoria isn't just "how one just feels."
That's the issue. That's were the bias comes from. Sex is irrelevant to my point.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
I will consider it a complement
It's really not, at all. I consider it bullying. My haircut or style of dress doesn't decide my gender identity. "God given"? Oh, **** off. I'm as nature made me. I was born a man and I'll die a man. That prison comment you made was just sick, as well making too many assumptions.
Skwim
Veteran Member
It appears you've misunderstood. My remark, "When you're right you're right" was in reference to what you said. IOW, it doesn't make any difference who said something, If what they said is right, then it is still right. If Hitler said, "Eating vegetables is a good thing to do," that he happened to say it doesn't diminish its truth.
.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
It's not. It's your understanding of it. In my opinion, I'd be uncomfortable too. At the same time I understand to an extent what gender dysphoria is as a medical illness.
That's one thing that you're missing. Knowledge.
The other is (maybe generation issue?) How you phrase your words. It sounds like (and some replies is) an attack on the person himself to the point their choice is their downfall as if they'd choose to commit murder and want you to accept it.
If children were not raised to descriminate by sex, what is inheredly wrong with two genitals (or both or none) sharing the same room?
Excluding attraction since it's not black and white.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
I think I was refering to a different post where it was said my post was bigoted.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
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"Medical condition" A boy goes to a doctor and says he really feels like a girl. The doctor sees dollar signs. A new medical condition. Expensive treatments and surgeries. The doctor makes money. The hospital makes money. The drug companies make money.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Think of it like depression. Depression used to have stigma: she's just feeling blue. Give her a spanking he'll get out of it. Then he goes to therapy and says how sad he is. How he can't or doesn't want to live. That's not a feeling, legally (US) that's a medical emergency. Suicide is taken seriously.
When a child (I'm making intelligent guesses. I'm not trans) goes to therapy, it's because he is distraught.
He sees his body and it feels alienated from him. Imagine what it's like to see your self but don't recognize yourself.
Dissociation with your body and psyche. That's. The medical part.
Gender is genetic (I'm female cause I have, for example, have physical maternal instinct). It's cultural (girls wear dresses in one country and burkas in another). It's environment and religion (God says this. You must listen) AND dysphoria above leads people to doctors and therapists.
To relieve the distortion, a woman who feels she should have a penis (I was told like a ghost leg. Your leg is amputated but you still feel it). He looks at his chest: something is missing.
These are psychological and physiological issues. Something you cannot just feel. You cannot just change.
People change their body so they're distraught feeling of body and self (what's missing) would align. I
i.e. I feel like I have a leg. I don't. People get fake legs. No one says it's wrong.
As for religion and god that doesn't solve the issue. It's telling the person that what he sees his face and body is who he is. You Are your body. Don't complain. Likewise. Dont cry. You're not depressed.
Gender is still studied because our societies still judge people based on sex. Soul=sex not spirit. You can color your hair. Even put contacts on. But Sex! That's not a god thing but a religious cultural thing.
Penis and vagina in the same room is a cultural and religious taboo for you. It goes beyond that. Without understanding, it doesn't sound like difference in informed opinion but geuine ignorance.
That's why you're getting replies. Opinions are fine but if the foundation isn't sound, it sounds like an insult.
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lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Remember Michael Jackson? He was Black. He went to a lot of trouble and expense to make his skin look light and his hair straight. He was still Black. A man can go to great expense to grow breasts and long hair, etc, but he is stil a man. He might feel better but nothing changed.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Micahael suffered from Vitilgo.
Vitiligo and Loss of Skin Color
Here's a TED Talk about it. Take your time.
Politics aside, people go through their life with these things. These conditions. Different people handle it on their own ways.
The "ghost leg" example is the closest I can think. When I was young and remember telling myself, why don't I feel anything down there. I was I think seventeen. Seven years ago my aunt who passed ask me if I were male or female. I said I didn't know. They call it gender fluid but I'm not too young to adopt new vocabulary. I am Who I am.
Our physiological self changes, it varied, moves. Sometimes our internal self is alienated from who we are and other times it's not. I don't consider myself trans because my feelings aren't strong and alienated to ser myself as the opposite sex. I think @frank posted years ago about the genetics of X and Y chromosomes involved with the ghost disassociation.
These things are medical facts. Transgender people's opinions are their experiences. Our experiences back up medical facts but if you want to understand it outside convo, it's a good topic to look up.
With the genitals, without sex discrimination, how does genitals, intersex, and none inheredly wrong if all people shared a public locker room minding their own adult business?
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I voted both yes and no, and I'm still not sure. I find this very hard to think about.
Bottom line, however, is that if it isn't at least apparently "fair," then it isn't really sport. Rules about what sorts of drugs are impermissible exist for that reason, and the fact of the matter is, what gonads you were born with provide big bursts of some drugs (hormones) to your developing body.
The notion, then, of separating male and female sports is based on that...men's bodies, infused from birth in testosterone, develop very differently from females. I think that it would be necessary to have the same split in the transgendered -- i.e. MtoF and FtoM -- for quite similar reasons. But really, in the end, since those are so few in number already, I can't see there being much of a commercial market for any professional leagues.
Bottom line, however, is that if it isn't at least apparently "fair," then it isn't really sport. Rules about what sorts of drugs are impermissible exist for that reason, and the fact of the matter is, what gonads you were born with provide big bursts of some drugs (hormones) to your developing body.
The notion, then, of separating male and female sports is based on that...men's bodies, infused from birth in testosterone, develop very differently from females. I think that it would be necessary to have the same split in the transgendered -- i.e. MtoF and FtoM -- for quite similar reasons. But really, in the end, since those are so few in number already, I can't see there being much of a commercial market for any professional leagues.