Should Trump Accept Defeat on The Wall Idea?

[james dixon]

Trump was given a million dollars by his father when he was young. He then turned that million into five (5) bankruptcies where he now intends to bankrupt the USA just because he can.

That’s who/what you voted for

 

[QuestioningMind]

It seems pretty clear that Trump is never going to get funding from congress for his promised wall (and, no, Mexico is not paying for it). So, should he just accept defeat and apologize, or should he keep on keeping on?

Absolutely he SHOULD accept defeat, but his fragile ego will never allow him to do so.

 

[columbus]

Absolutely he SHOULD accept defeat, but his fragile ego will never allow him to do so.

Nor will the many people who believed him when he promised it. Ann Coulter, as usual, does know a lot about the sort of Republican who voted for Trump. He is not going to keep the "Make America Great Again" crowd by blaming the Democrats for being too strong for him to prevail against. Not because he wouldn't try that tactic. Rather, because he is hated by too many Republican Elites who want to bring him down and will keep stoking the basket of deplorables.
Tom

 

[QuestioningMind]

To play devil's advocate, why is a politician keeping a key campaign promises necessarily 'self-serving'? When politicians are routinely criticised for not doing what they committed to doing, can we also criticise them for sticking to their guns?

Whether you agree with the wall or not,t his was the platform he was elected on.

If the only reason you made the campaign promise was to serve your self-interests, then keeping the promise is also self-serving. No one is criticizing him for keeping his promise, he's being criticized for making the promise in the first place.

 

[psychoslice]

“When defeat comes, accept it as a signal that your plans are not sound, rebuild those plans, and set sail once more toward your coveted goal.”
― Napoleon Hill.

 

[metis]

I think that we should definitely build the wall...





around Trump.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Considering people are starting to add a revisionist spin to Bush Jr's terms, and thinking he wasn't all that bad after all, Trump should just give up.
But Trump should not give up, because that would mean Pence is in control.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Right now we have more illegals going back to Mexico than coming from Mexico, how is a wall going to make that any better, it might actually stop people that are trying to leave the country.

Yeah...It's like they're looking for a solution to a problem that isn't as big as they portray...

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I will admit that it does kind of bother me to hear this kind of rhetoric which fosters the stereotype that American workers are "lazy" and don't want to do any hard work. Maybe the owner of this vineyard is the one who is truly lazy and wanting to get by on cheap, easily exploitable labor.

It's kinda true though. Much of the back breaking work done in the hot sun most Americans don't want to do.Field work has become cheap labor because it, to a degree, keeps food cost down and many of the workers are getting paid by the amount they pick in a day. The first part of this episode of VICE explored what happens when you enact a papers please style law and deport people. From one of the actual farmers "White people in the area don't want to work"....

 

[Stevicus]

It's kinda true though. Much of the back breaking work done in the hot sun most Americans don't want to do.Field work has become cheap labor because it, to a degree, keeps food cost down and many of the workers are getting paid by the amount they pick in a day. The first part of this episode of VICE explored what happens when you enact a papers please style law and deport people. From one of the actual farmers "White people in the area don't want to work"....

The video is a bit too long, I may watch it later.

But I don't think it has anything to do with not wanting to work. I grew up in the city and never lived on a farm, which is probably the case for the majority of Americans. Granted, there may be a lot of slackers and self-entitled Millennials out there, but all in all, I think most working Americans work hard at their jobs and take a certain pride in their work ethic. If they're not attracted to doing farm work for low wages, there must be some other explanation for this, other than "they don't want to work."

I visited my uncles' farms when I was a kid, and they did most of the work themselves, along with their kids and maybe a couple of hired hands. They didn't need to import laborers back then. I'm not sure what's changed in the agricultural industry that suddenly required the need for so many undocumented workers. It wasn't always this way.

 

[Nous]

It seems pretty clear that Trump is never going to get funding from congress for his promised wall (and, no, Mexico is not paying for it). So, should he just accept defeat and apologize, or should he keep on keeping on?

If you saw the Sean Spicer show today, you now know that “fence” means “wall,” and “repairing an existing wall” means “building a wall.” So Trump won. (Except the Mexicans are not paying for it.)

 

[leibowde84]

If you saw the Sean Spicer show today, you now know that “fence” means “wall,” and “repairing an existing wall” means “building a wall.” So Trump won. (Except the Mexicans are not paying for it.)

lol

 

[columbus]

I visited my uncles' farms when I was a kid, and they did most of the work themselves, along with their kids and maybe a couple of hired hands. They didn't need to import laborers back then. I'm not sure what's changed in the agricultural industry that suddenly required the need for so many undocumented workers. It wasn't always this way.

Depends a lot on what they grow.

There's a ton of illegal workers around here and it's a very agricultural place, southern Indiana. But they tend to work in factories and restaurants, not agricultural. Because we mostly raise corn and soybean, which is heavily mechanised. Fruit and vegetables growers tend to be little family deals.
Tom

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The video is a bit too long, I may watch it later.

But I don't think it has anything to do with not wanting to work.

No problem. It's only the first 10 minutes or so.

I grew up in the city and never lived on a farm, which is probably the case for the majority of Americans. Granted, there may be a lot of slackers and self-entitled Millennials out there, but all in all, I think most working Americans work hard at their jobs and take a certain pride in their work ethic. If they're not attracted to doing farm work for low wages, there must be some other explanation for this, other than "they don't want to work."

Yeah. I think what it is, is they're not attracted to doing farm work, farm work for low wages. Some don't want to work but most don't want to do that kind of work. If you have an immigrant who's used to making $10 to $30 dollars a day in his/her country (and that's being generous) then it's no wonder they don't mind doing the farm work here for $3 to $8 per hour or being paid by the amount you pick. Most Americans don't and won't do that type of work for that amount of money. But while it's not a lot of money for the immigrant it's more than they may have made back home and generally more than one family member is working which increases the take home pay.

I visited my uncles' farms when I was a kid, and they did most of the work themselves, along with their kids and maybe a couple of hired hands. They didn't need to import laborers back then. I'm not sure what's changed in the agricultural industry that suddenly required the need for so many undocumented workers. It wasn't always this way.

I think the obvious answer is population growth and demand. In order to keep up with that demand or even quotas they have to hire people to do the work and since it's not something most Americans want to do it's a niche for immigrants to fill.

 

[metis]

When I was doing my undergrad studies, one of my fellow classmate's family owned a pickle/cucumber farm in western Michigan, and he asked me if I had a job for the summer between my freshman and sophomore years, and I told him that I didn't. He then asked if maybe I'd be interested in doing some picking during the summer, and I said that I was interested.

He just laughed and said that I wouldn't last a day and that he wouldn't do it, which is why they hired "Mexicans", to use his word, to do it.

A somewhat similar story involves one of my wife's cousin's who's a large Christmas tree grower here, whereas he said he "finally got smart" and began to hire Hispanics versus locals because they'll really work.

 

[Stevicus]

Yeah. I think what it is, is they're not attracted to doing farm work, farm work for low wages. Some don't want to work but most don't want to do that kind of work. If you have an immigrant who's used to making $10 to $30 dollars a day in his/her country (and that's being generous) then it's no wonder they don't mind doing the farm work here for $3 to $8 per hour or being paid by the amount you pick. Most Americans don't and won't do that type of work for that amount of money. But while it's not a lot of money for the immigrant it's more than they may have made back home and generally more than one family member is working which increases the take home pay.

I can see your point, and this is one reason why many support a guest worker program where workers in this category can cross over legally, work seasonal employment, then return home. But for those who employ them, they no longer would enjoy the benefits that come from having an "underground" workforce. Let's face it, a lot of these employers are simply exploiters, taking advantage of workers who are desperate for work and are vulnerable due to their immigration status. The activities of the "coyotes" who bring them over are absolutely reprehensible, keeping them virtual prisoners and slaves until they pay off the costs of being escorted over the border. They often live in grisly conditions.

Sure, they may make more money, but that's only because the conditions back home are so dreadful and with very few opportunities for advancement. NAFTA was supposed to help fix problems like that, but it never did.

I think the obvious answer is population growth and demand. In order to keep up with that demand or even quotas they have to hire people to do the work and since it's not something most Americans want to do it's a niche for immigrants to fill.

I'm still not entirely convinced that it's the actual "work" that Americans don't want to do. It's the pay and the working conditions. Sure, it might mean cheaper food prices, but in the long run, I'm not sure that it's really worth it. Back when cotton plantation owners needed to import labor, they sold America's soul in the process. They made many of the same claims about "lazy" workers, but I never thought it was true.

 

[Stevicus]

Depends a lot on what they grow.

There's a ton of illegal workers around here and it's a very agricultural place, southern Indiana. But they tend to work in factories and restaurants, not agricultural. Because we mostly raise corn and soybean, which is heavily mechanised. Fruit and vegetables growers tend to be little family deals.
Tom

I've visited various family members' farms in Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Minnesota (hogs, dairy, corn, soybeans, mostly). This was back in the 1970s and 80s, and I never really saw or encountered any Hispanic workers at all. Statistically, their numbers were far lower back in those days, with the vast majority of them in the border states.