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"Should we respect religions and the religious?"

Fluffy

A fool
Every other week, the atheist, agnostic and secular society (AASS), which I belong to meets to discuss various topics concerning atheism. Next Tuesday the topic will be:

"Should we respect religions and the religious?"
  • What do we mean when we talk of respect?
  • To what extent is it possible to disagree with someone yet respect their beliefs?
  • Should we be respectful of intolerant or hateful beliefs?
  • Is it reasonable to put all religions into one category when debating this question?
I thought that these were all interesting debating points which we could discuss on this thread and then I'll try feedback the views of a group of atheists on the matter.
 

moegypt

Active Member
Every other week, the atheist, agnostic and secular society (AASS), which I belong to meets to discuss various topics concerning atheism. Next Tuesday the topic will be:

"Should we respect religions and the religious?"
  • What do we mean when we talk of respect?
  • To what extent is it possible to disagree with someone yet respect their beliefs?
  • Should we be respectful of intolerant or hateful beliefs?
  • Is it reasonable to put all religions into one category when debating this question?
I thought that these were all interesting debating points which we could discuss on this thread and then I'll try feedback the views of a group of atheists on the matter.

The topic you said is really very important.. Thanks to you and AASS..

Every one ,has a religion or hasn't, love his way... He try to show that it is the best way for humans in my point of view.

for your first question,
Respect each other is very important..No problem if every one shows his beliefs,opinions.... but with respect to others.

As Example if he hate Islam,Christianity,Hindusim... He should respect others.simply because no one will be convinced with hatefull words or bad mode.

He can say his beliefs as he want and we hear him and discuss and respond..

You can say that " I believe that Mohammad is not prophet!" and then muslims will try to sure that Mohammad is a prophet. But it will not be acceptble if one say " Why God didn't choose one cleaner than Mohammad"..I read this meaning in a post on RF.. now, It is not acceptabe.

Your topic is really important.
 

Aasimar

Atheist
Every other week, the atheist, agnostic and secular society (AASS), which I belong to meets to discuss various topics concerning atheism. Next Tuesday the topic will be:

"Should we respect religions and the religious?"
  • What do we mean when we talk of respect?
  • To what extent is it possible to disagree with someone yet respect their beliefs?
  • Should we be respectful of intolerant or hateful beliefs?
  • Is it reasonable to put all religions into one category when debating this question?
I thought that these were all interesting debating points which we could discuss on this thread and then I'll try feedback the views of a group of atheists on the matter.

I feel people should be respected until they show they do not deserve it, but ideas should not. I respect peoples right to believe what they want, but I do not necessarily respect their beliefs. To say that I do would be disingenuous. Basically, I respect your right to believe as you will, but if I feel what you believe is stupid, I will say so and cite reasons why. And I will blaspheme any god I choose, I only respect the people, not their deities.

Don't get me wrong, I don't go around being intentionally hateful, but religion gets far too much leeway in this regard.
 

Fluffy

A fool
What do we mean when we talk of respect?
This could easily be a huge topic all by itself. Dictionary.com gives several relevant definitions:

1) "esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or ability: I have great respect for her judgment."

I think in this sense, we can respect a particular quality or ability of a person regardless of that person's other qualities. I think it also points out how our other feelings for that person can affect whether we give them respect. For example, we would find it easier to respect a mediocre quality in one of our friends whereas we would skip over the same quality if we saw it in a brutal dictator. Some might argue that this is fine since a qualities excellence is relative to a person's other qualities. That doesn't seem inconsistent but it does make "respect" a synonym for "like"

I believe that when we categorise ourselves, we predispose ourselves to a higher amount of bias against anybody who has categorised themselves differently. Therefore, as atheists, we need to be careful of avoiding this bias when deciding whether the religious are worthy of respect. Being religious afterall is not like running a brutal dictatorship so whilst religious beliefs might be dismissed from this kind of respect, the other aspects and personal qualities of religious people should be judged regardless of how we feel about religion.

2) "deference to a right, privilege, privileged position, or someone or something considered to have certain rights or privileges; proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgment: respect for a suspect's right to counsel; to show respect for the flag; respect for the elderly."

Again, this definition seems to apply to religious people but not to religious beliefs themselves. It would certainly tell us to respect a person's right to believe whatever they want to believe but that doesn't say much about the content of the belief.

3) "favor or partiality."

Although I'm sure this is not what is meant when people generally use the word, it does appear to be the kind of respect that is under attack from some atheists at the moment. The idea is that one can become so respectful towards religion as to make religion immune from criticism even in areas where we would happily criticise anything else.

Although I would agree with the idea here, their reaction appears to be to ridicule religious belief and believers. This doesn't make any sense to me since atheists then get accused of being disrespectful and, as a result, any criticisms are ignored or at least setback considerably. On the other hand, if we criticised in a respectful way then our concerns would be listened to, wrongs would be righted and we wouldn't make needless enemies.

Yes, some people would still be offended. But the argument appears to be that since some religious people are offended by genuine, honest criticism, we might as well offend the rest of them as well by being unnecessarily offensive.

To what extent is it possible to disagree with someone yet respect their beliefs?
Should we be respectful of intolerant or hateful beliefs?
So far I haven't really talked about respecting belief itself. Initially, it feels like I do respect some people due to their beliefs. Being supportive of GLBT rights is a good example of a belief that I would respect. However, on closer inspection, I think I like people who adhere to this belief and respect only those who act on it and make their belief a reality. Therefore, I'm not entirely sure that a belief, any belief, is worthy of respect (or disrespect for that matter).

If we respected all beliefs regardless of their content then of the definitions I gave above, 1 and 3 clearly could not apply without rendering their definitions meaningless. 2 merely leads me to respect their right to believe anything and not the beliefs themselves, as I discussed above. However, for the sake of argument, I will assume that it is possible and meaningful to respect a belief itself.

It also seems clear that there are some non-religious beliefs I would not want to respect. To take an extreme example, Hitler's belief in the Final Solution. Therefore, there appears to be some sort of criterion or mark that allows me to distinguish between a belief I would want to respect (perhaps more accurately "tolerate") and a belief that I would not. Additionally, this mark does not appear to have anything to do with a belief being "religious". In this case, Hitler's belief would be just as offensive regardless of whether he saw it as part of his religion or not.

So far, I would tentatively conclude that, assuming respecting belief is a meaningful act, some beliefs should be respected and some shouldn't. The mark is the potential for that belief to cause harm. Harm, in this sense, is not merely harm to a being but also harm to processes or activities such as science.

Is it reasonable to put all religions into one category when debating this question?
If we are talking about specific beliefs that we feel shouldn't be respected then clearly not as I don't think there is any belief that is shared by every single religion. However, if we were talking about categories of belief, then it might be more reasonable.

An example of a category of belief that might be objected to are those which the believer holds to be true yet rejects the need for evidence or reason in determining his belief. This, it is argued, would allow those beliefs that would otherwise be discounted as harmful to gain a foothold in society.

This creates a problem because the same belief can be harmless in the mind of one believer but harmful in the mind of another. For example, the belief in the second coming within their life time have lead some to spurn long term solutiuons global issues such as poverty or climate change whilst others holding that belief support these efforts. It appears to be difficult to criticise the first group without also criticising the second since, if it were true that the second coming is happening in 5 years time, it would be rational to ignore global issues as they would be solved at that time anyway.
 

Fluffy

A fool
As an aside to this issue, I have observed that when people decide that a belief is undeserving of respect, they have a tendancy to say that it is stupid or ridicule it. Some atheists are active advocates of this approach suggesting that it is the only way to respond to a certain kind of belief without giving it the positive recognition that it would recieve if they responded to it in a more civil way.

It occurs to me that although we may identify faults in other people, atheists should remember that we are not immune to fault ourselves. Therefore, that we are responding to a percieved fault does not imply "anything goes". Firstly, we might be wrong ourselves and the person we ridicule would have been in a much better position to show us this than we are. Secondly, its just not very nice. We can still be nice to people even if we don't respect them and/or their beliefs.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I don't think it's necessary to respect beliefs. But respecting people is a very different matter.

It seems to me that when we disrespect someone, we usually do so on fairly narrow grounds. "Oh, I can't respect him -- he's an atheist!" Or, "I can't respect her -- she's a theist!" To not respect someone because they are an atheist or a theist is to ignore everything about them except for their religious beliefs -- and that's a very narrow basis for judging someone. It actually puts me in mind of the Nazis judging people solely on whether they were Jewish or not. Or of the Klan judging people solely on their race. Almost anytime you base your respect or lack of respect for someone on such a narrow basis, you demean that person and reveal yourself to be narrow minded about them -- or perhaps worse.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I can respect someone's beliefs and disagree with them at the same time. I can respect a person and disagree with their behavior at the same time. And if I can't respect other people and their beliefs, I deserve no respect from them, in return. Just as if they cannot respect me or my beliefs, they will get no respect from me in return.

Without respect, there can be no dialogue. Without respect, interaction quickly becomes an unresolvable (and pointless) battle. People who will not respect the beliefs of other people WANT to engage in these unresolvable and pointless battles for their own personal reasons, regardless of whatever justifications they may espouse. They just want to fight for the sake of fighting. They are fools and in some cases criminals and should be treated as such.
 

Smoke

Done here.
What do we mean when we talk of respect?
To respect someone is to recognize his inherent dignity and worth.

To what extent is it possible to disagree with someone yet respect their beliefs?
Only to the extent that we don't know or don't care that their beliefs are wrong. Beliefs, unlike people, don't necessarily have any inherent dignity and worth. The trick is to treat people with the respect they deserve even if we don't respect their beliefs. It's not always easy, but it's necessary, especially since (1) we're unlikely to know many people who agree with us about everything and (2) we're unlikely to be right about everything.

Should we be respectful of intolerant or hateful beliefs?
No.

Is it reasonable to put all religions into one category when debating this question?
No. Religion and religious ideas are extremely diverse, and some religious ideas have more merit than others. The principle of non-violent resistance, for instance, was originally (and is still largely) a religious idea.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I am not going to answer the question (it has been asked before and I gave my 2 cents then), I am going to ask my own question:
Should we respect atheism and the Non-religious?;)
 

John_672

Omnitheist
"Should we respect religions and the religious?"
  • What do we mean when we talk of respect?
  • To what extent is it possible to disagree with someone yet respect their beliefs?
  • Should we be respectful of intolerant or hateful beliefs?
  • Is it reasonable to put all religions into one category when debating this question?
I thought that these were all interesting debating points which we could discuss on this thread and then I'll try feedback the views of a group of atheists on the matter.

Should the non-religious respect religions and the religious? Yes.

Respect is showing regard or consideration for differences, and refraining from interfering or harsh judgment of that person due to those differences. Notice I said "harsh judgment." It's human nature to form some type of judgment, but there is a difference in saying "I believe your are incorrect" and saying "I'm betting you have a donkey's privates in between your ears instead of a brain."

It is completely possible to disagree with someone and yet respect their beliefs. My in-laws are dye-in-the-wool Democrats and still count a former president of the NRA as one of their closest friends - they just don't talk politics. The trick to it is to stop trying to change other people, but let them go in the direction that they need to grow.

To what extent should someone be respectful of intolerant or hateful beliefs? Now we get into the question, what is intolerance? Is believing that homosexuality is a sin hateful or intolerant. I would say it is, but it isn't the same as believing that all homosexuals should be stoned in the streets. With the first, I would tell the person politely that I strongly disagree. If we can have a conversation about it, fine; if we can not have a civil discussion, then we agree to disagree and move on. The second, I wouldn't want to deal with in any manner - my respect ends when it comes to the life or well being of another person.

Is it reasonable to put all religions in one category when debating this question. I would like to say yes, but again, I know that is unrealistic. I'll be honest - this question is hard for me to answer right now. I'll think about it...

I do agree that it should go both ways. There are theists out there who would verbally attack someone they know to be a non-theist on sight. I don't defend these people in the least, and wish that more folks from mainstream religions would stand up and publicly denounce these bigots. Regardless of the anger they cause, it is important to realize that those theists are merely a handful among many, and that most theists are genuinely good people.
 

Bathsheba

**{{}}**
Democratic societies express tolerance by not restricting a persons right to believe what they want as long as they don't violate the harm priciple. Tolerance is not respect, love, or the avoidance of offending people. Respect is different from tolerance, in respecting people we do not have to respect their ideas or beliefs. Respect for all ideas is dangerous, not all ideas are equal. Challenging ideas must be perfectly acceptable. If our ideas offend someone it does automatically mean that we don't respect the person. In a public sphere people need to stop crying about being offended - time to adult-up.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
There will be no dialogue, nor any possibility of someone changing their ideas of things without mutual respect, however. So when we encounter an idea that we don't agree with, basically, our only possibility of changing or bettering that idea in the mind of another begins with respecting them and their ideas, so that the possibility of a positive dialogue can exist.

We don't have to respect other people or their ideas. But it's basically completely counter-productive not to.
 

Bathsheba

**{{}}**
We don't have to respect other people or their ideas. But it's basically completely counter-productive not to.

Respect for people and respect for ideas should be separate considerations IMO.

I agree - we don't have to respect people. I believe that often it is counter-productive not to respect people.

I agree - we don't have to respect people’s ideas. I strongly disagree with the idea that it is "basically completely counter-productive" not to respect an idea(s).

Society rightfully challenges ideas all the time. Here's one easy example, we challenge the use of torture to get information from combatants. Torture is a bad idea, we don't respect this idea. It is completely counter-productive to leave the torture idea unchallenged. Nobody should be encouraged to respect this idea.

Conflating respect for people and respect for ideas is counter-productive.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Society rightfully challenges ideas all the time. Here's one easy example, we challenge the use of torture to get information from combatants. Torture is a bad idea, we don't respect this idea. It is completely counter-productive to leave the torture idea unchallenged. Nobody should be encouraged to respect this idea.

Conflating respect for people and respect for ideas is counter-productive.[/COLOR]
You seem to be confusing respect for someone else's ideas with capitulation, or agreement. By respecting the ideas of others, I mean listening to them, understanding them, and being open to having our own minds changed by them. I believe that if we will do this, often, so will the other person, and in the end both people will learn and grow from their interaction. Almost no idea is totally without value. That includes those who's ideas we disagree with. And almost no idea is completely right and true, and that includes our own.
 

Bathsheba

**{{}}**
PureX, thank you for the exchange.

You seem to be confusing respect for someone else's ideas with capitulation, or agreement.

Perhaps not. This might provide you with a better perspective of my ideas on the issue. First example, I can respect the idea that evil does not exist, but I do not "capitulate" to the idea nor do I agree with it. Another example, I can respect the idea that there may be more to reality than can be measured by science, but I do not agree that it is a good idea to make choices ignoring the available evidence (in theory :) I probably make choices that don't have anything to do with *the evidence* lol).

By respecting the ideas of others, I mean listening to them, understanding them, and being open to having our own minds changed by them. I believe that if we will do this, often, so will the other person, and in the end both people will learn and grow from their interaction.

I think I understand how you have defined respecting the ideas of others. We listen, we seek to understand what they are saying, and we strive to be open to changing our mind if we learn another idea is preferable. I agree that interacting with people (particularly in our personal relationships) in this way is advantageous. Adults listen, process, and change, if need be. For me, this behavior comes out of respecting people and a commitment to embrace reality the best I can. I don’t believe I need to respect the “idea” to act in this way.

Almost no idea is totally without value.

Some ideas have more value than others. We can think of ideas existing within a range, for the sake of argument, perhaps you will accept this range: Really Really Good Ideas on one end of the spectrum and Really Really Bad Ideas at the other end of the spectrum (and everything in between).

Examples:

Really Really Bad Ideas
-drunk driving
-sex with minors
-unprovoked violence

Really Really Good Ideas
-the golden rule
-don’t cheat
-protect your health

Not everybody is going to accept my ideas of what constitutes a really good idea and a really bad idea, that’s fine, the point is, most of us have it in our heads that which constitutes a really good idea and a really bad idea.

Here’s the thing, I cannot respect the idea of having sex with minors. If somebody wanted to advocate for sex with minors (NAMBLA) I am under no obligation to respect their ideas. Further, I feel absolutely no obligation to respect them as people. Further, I have zero obligation to being concerned if I offend them with my criticism of their ideas. In this example, I don’t even have to tolerate their ideas; I can fight to put them in prison because they have violated the harm principle.

I don’t have to respect the people that think it is a good idea to drink and drive, and in fact, I don’t respect these people. I can respect that they are humans that need education. But personally, don’t flat out don’t respect these people I have zero interest in trying to understand somebody that tries to justify drunk driving. I don’t care that their feelings might get hurt, or that they might get their back up against the wall when I speak out strongly against their stupidity. It is entirely appropriate to label the idea *stupid*.

On last example, I am completely comfortable offending somebody that is arguing that the holocaust didn’t happen. The point isn’t to offend them. But, if in the course of explaining to somebody my ideas about their ideas (holocaust deniers), if they should get offended I feel no moral obligation to be concerned about that. Again, the point isn’t to purposely offend or deliberately alienate, the point is that we challenge bad ideas in our society.

Earlier I said that society challenges bad ideas all the time. For example, if somebody is applying to be the CEO of a fortune 500 company, and if during the interview the candidate states that they consult their astrology charts to make business decisions, there is a pretty good bet that they won’t get the job. Why? Because it is a bad idea to run a business based off of Astrology charts. I assume you are not advocating that the person conducting the interview open their mind to the possibility that Astrology might be an option for making business decisions.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Here’s the thing, I cannot respect the idea of having sex with minors. If somebody wanted to advocate for sex with minors (NAMBLA) I am under no obligation to respect their ideas. Further, I feel absolutely no obligation to respect them as people. Further, I have zero obligation to being concerned if I offend them with my criticism of their ideas. In this example, I don’t even have to tolerate their ideas; I can fight to put them in prison because they have violated the harm principle.
Well, were you to encounter someone from a culture that practices pedophilia, your reaction to their cultural norm would only put them on the defensive, and cause them to likewise close their minds to your way of thinking. Your own disgust would render you useless at engaging them in a meaningful dialogue that might change their minds. And barring such persuasion, you'd be left with either putting up with their cultural proclivities or fighting to force them to stop.

This was my point: that although you CAN react self-righteously and doggedly, you will render yourself ineffective at dialogue or diplomacy and leave only the choice of violent force or capitulation as a result.
I don’t have to respect the people that think it is a good idea to drink and drive, and in fact, I don’t respect these people. I can respect that they are humans that need education. But personally, don’t flat out don’t respect these people I have zero interest in trying to understand somebody that tries to justify drunk driving. I don’t care that their feelings might get hurt, or that they might get their back up against the wall when I speak out strongly against their stupidity. It is entirely appropriate to label the idea *stupid*.
Again, I'm sure such absolute self-righteousness feels good to you, but in fact it's completely ineffective as a deterrent to the ideas that you so righteously claim to abhor.
Earlier I said that society challenges bad ideas all the time. For example, if somebody is applying to be the CEO of a fortune 500 company, and if during the interview the candidate states that they consult their astrology charts to make business decisions, there is a pretty good bet that they won’t get the job. Why? Because it is a bad idea to run a business based off of Astrology charts. I assume you are not advocating that the person conducting the interview open their mind to the possibility that Astrology might be an option for making business decisions.
If the person using the astrology charts has a successful track record at predicting stock prices, I suspect that he/she would in fact be hired, and rightly so. Just because it's not logical doesn't mean it's irrelevant. And just because someone else's reasoning does not follow the same course as your own, does not mean that it's inevitably going to be unsuccessful.
 
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