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"Should we respect religions and the religious?"
- Thread starter Fluffy
- Start date
That is the same as I believe!:angel2:
love
tri-polar optimist
Then why aren't you at peoples forums instead of religious forums?
Just curious.
You might find a lot less stupid people who believe in a deity.
But anyway give it your best shot and dazzle us with your brilliance and intellect , your deepest thoughts on the origin of man. The destination of man.
Well, were you to encounter someone from a culture that practices pedophilia, your reaction to their cultural norm would only put them on the defensive, and cause them to likewise close their minds to your way of thinking.
Probably, yes, I think that is very probable.
We have already established that we define ‘respecting ideas’ differently.
Your own disgust would render you useless at engaging them in a meaningful dialogue that might change their minds. And barring such persuasion, you'd be left with either putting up with their cultural proclivities or fighting to force them to stop.
Not a bad point.
Currently I do put up with “cultural proclivities” that disgust me.
I don’t value attempting to engage in what you call meaningful dialogue with every holder of an idea which is contrary to mine. In my opinion some ideas are dangerous, that is my value judgment. I don’t care if I have a connection with every one that holds an idea contrary to mine.
Do you have a different ethical argument for why I should respect ideas that I think are bad?
This was my point: that although you CAN react self-righteously and doggedly, you will render yourself ineffective at dialogue or diplomacy and leave only the choice of violent force or capitulation as a result.
I wouldn’t limit the list of available choices to force or capitulation. If the situation warrants it we can try to change a bad idea by changing the law. In the meantime we can continue to denounce bad ideas, we say loudly and clearly “we don’t respect this bad idea”, we educate, we garner greater support, we seek to change the culture. Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD) employed this kind of response to a bad idea, an idea which did not deserve respect, drunk driving is a bad idea.
Again, I'm sure such absolute self-righteousness feels good to you,
Why yes, yes it does.
but in fact it's completely ineffective as a deterrent to the ideas that you so righteously claim to abhor.
Well, I never claimed that the self-righteousness I sometimes experience was going to be effective as a deterrent to the ideas that I abhor. What I said was, I don’t respect bad ideas.
If the person using the astrology charts has a successful track record at predicting stock prices, I suspect that he/she would in fact be hired, and rightly so.
That is a dumb idea.
I don’t respect that idea.
I don’t know you well enough not to respect you as a person, so just for the record, I respect you.
But that last idea, nope, I don’t respect it – BAD IDEA.
Now, you warned me that this kind of “up in your grill” approach was likely to alienate you or make you defensive (when I say ‘you’ I mean people in general). On the one hand I don’t really care if you are feeling defensive, on the other hand I’d rather you did not get annoyed or defensive because then (like you said) there is a better chance of having a dialog. I’m advocating that you adult-up and realize that it isn’t about you, it is about the idea. Or you can feel put upon, close your mind and withdrawn. It is your choice. You will act on what you value.
Just because it's not logical doesn't mean it's irrelevant.
I feel like I just fell down a rabbit hole reading that statement. In fairness, I must not assume I know what you mean.
Hey, if you can find me a CEO of a Fortune 500 company that uses Astrology to decide on Mergers & Acquisitions then I will concede your point.
And just because someone else's reasoning does not follow the same course as your own, does not mean that it's inevitably going to be unsuccessful.
True.
But I have no ethical obligation to respect someone elses reasoning even if it does lead to something successful.
Democratic societies express tolerance by not restricting a persons right to believe what they want as long as they don't violate the harm priciple.
Probably, yes, I think that is very probable.
We have already established that we define ‘respecting ideas’ differently.
Your own disgust would render you useless at engaging them in a meaningful dialogue that might change their minds. And barring such persuasion, you'd be left with either putting up with their cultural proclivities or fighting to force them to stop.
Not a bad point.
Currently I do put up with “cultural proclivities” that disgust me.
I don’t value attempting to engage in what you call meaningful dialogue with every holder of an idea which is contrary to mine. In my opinion some ideas are dangerous, that is my value judgment. I don’t care if I have a connection with every one that holds an idea contrary to mine.
Do you have a different ethical argument for why I should respect ideas that I think are bad?
This was my point: that although you CAN react self-righteously and doggedly, you will render yourself ineffective at dialogue or diplomacy and leave only the choice of violent force or capitulation as a result.
I wouldn’t limit the list of available choices to force or capitulation. If the situation warrants it we can try to change a bad idea by changing the law. In the meantime we can continue to denounce bad ideas, we say loudly and clearly “we don’t respect this bad idea”, we educate, we garner greater support, we seek to change the culture. Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD) employed this kind of response to a bad idea, an idea which did not deserve respect, drunk driving is a bad idea.
Again, I'm sure such absolute self-righteousness feels good to you,
Why yes, yes it does.
but in fact it's completely ineffective as a deterrent to the ideas that you so righteously claim to abhor.
Well, I never claimed that the self-righteousness I sometimes experience was going to be effective as a deterrent to the ideas that I abhor. What I said was, I don’t respect bad ideas.
If the person using the astrology charts has a successful track record at predicting stock prices, I suspect that he/she would in fact be hired, and rightly so.
That is a dumb idea.
I don’t respect that idea.
I don’t know you well enough not to respect you as a person, so just for the record, I respect you.
But that last idea, nope, I don’t respect it – BAD IDEA.
Now, you warned me that this kind of “up in your grill” approach was likely to alienate you or make you defensive (when I say ‘you’ I mean people in general). On the one hand I don’t really care if you are feeling defensive, on the other hand I’d rather you did not get annoyed or defensive because then (like you said) there is a better chance of having a dialog. I’m advocating that you adult-up and realize that it isn’t about you, it is about the idea. Or you can feel put upon, close your mind and withdrawn. It is your choice. You will act on what you value.
Just because it's not logical doesn't mean it's irrelevant.
I feel like I just fell down a rabbit hole reading that statement. In fairness, I must not assume I know what you mean.
Hey, if you can find me a CEO of a Fortune 500 company that uses Astrology to decide on Mergers & Acquisitions then I will concede your point.
And just because someone else's reasoning does not follow the same course as your own, does not mean that it's inevitably going to be unsuccessful.
True.
But I have no ethical obligation to respect someone elses reasoning even if it does lead to something successful.
Democratic societies express tolerance by not restricting a persons right to believe what they want as long as they don't violate the harm priciple.
PureX
Veteran Member
When you set the ideas that you already hold up as the criteria by which everyone else's ideas are judged and evaluated, you adopt a position for yourself that you don't rightly deserve and can't rightly defend. And in so doing you give everyone else proper reason to ignore your judgments.
When I see that your ears have closed, I have no reason to speak.
Thank you for hanging in there with me as long as you did.
There are examples on RF where somebody has demonstrated to me that my ideas were wrong and I have reversed my thinking. My ears are not always closed.
I'm wondering if one of our major disagreements is whether or not truth exists. I know you have stopped talking to me, but maybe you will chew on this. Once we have determined that some behaviour will harm others, do we need to rediscover the truth of that idea over and over again?
later gator
-bathsheba
Aasimar
Atheist
Something about my post bother you?
PureX
Veteran Member
The idea that harming others is wrong is itself an idea. And like all ideas it can be discussed, debated, and can be found to be flawed.Thank you for hanging in there with me as long as you did.
There are examples on RF where somebody has demonstrated to me that my ideas were wrong and I have reversed my thinking. My ears are not always closed.
I'm wondering if one of our major disagreements is whether or not truth exists. I know you have stopped talking to me, but maybe you will chew on this. Once we have determined that some behaviour will harm others, do we need to rediscover the truth of that idea over and over again?
later gator
-bathsheba
Keep in mind, here, that we're talking about ideas, rather than actions. The idea of murder can be tolerated, and debated. The act of murder, for most people, cannot. The idea of pedophilia can be discussed and debated, but the action, for most people, cannot. I think it's important that when we encounter these ideas, that we engage them, and the only way to do that effectively is with respect. However, when we encounter such actions, the time for discussion and debate is passed, and we must respond with action.
Ideas, in themselves, are harmless. It's only when they're adopted as 'right', and then acted on, that they can become problematic. And that goes for your 'right' ideas as well as anyone else's.
I'll engage in discussion as long as I feel the other person is likewise engaged.
Society has already determined that they don’t accept these ideas, pedophillia & murder, as having value and deserving respect. I recommend not being so open minded that your brains fall out.
Usually I get frustrated with rubber-neckers at a train wreck, but I must say, I would love to rubber-neck the respectful discussion you might have with a 50 year old man arguing for the right to have sex with a 10 year old girl. And then I would probably throw up.
See, if I was talking to a pervert that wanted to have sex with a child, I wouldn’t worry about respecting his ideas, I wouldn’t worry about trying to understand his point of view, I would just report him to the police.
We have been talking about respecting *peoples* idea, we are not talking about ideas in themselves.
If the idea of killing someone resides in the mind of a jilted lover, the idea isn't harmless. Ideas are what gets the ball rolling and if you have a bad idea, like killing your cheating husband, you are more likely to do it if you entertain the idea vs. not ever having thought about the idea.
PureX
Veteran Member
What society accepts or doesn't accept has little to do with the value of an idea. Concensus is just one aspect of many that deserve consideration. Also, no two people will hold the exact same ideas. The complexity is too great. Much of human interaction is spent in defining our ideas to each other, before we can even begin to debate them. I have found it to very often be the case that someone closes their mind to ideas that they think the other person holds, and so never bothers to listen long enough to discover that this was not the other person's idea at all. One has to take the time to hear an idea before he can reasonably decide to object to it.
Such self-righteous emotionalism is probably responsible for a lot more human pain and suffering than the ideas that you get so emotional about.
Wow, that is a phenomenal claim. And it is outrageous (*oh look dear, there goes that emotional woman on her tirade again, she said *outrageous*. Isn't that sad, so sad .... oh, if only everybody was a spiritual eunuch like me*).
How on earth can you equate the pain produced by self-righteous emotionalism with the pain produced by rape and murder?
eta: actually you are elevating the pain produced, it not equating it, I guess I just can't wrap my mind around this absurdity and it pains me (god, I am so emotional) to acknowledge that you what to elevate it
PureX
Veteran Member
I think self-righteous emotionalism leads to closed minds and poor (often violent) reactions. It's exactly when our self-righteous emotionalism slams the doors of our minds shut that we find ourselves with little recourse left but capitulation, which we will not tolerate, and force (often violent force) against those people and ideas that we have deemed unacceptable. It's self-righteous emotionalism that underpins most of what we call "patriotism", and nationalism, and that fuels wars between nations and cultures. It's self-righteous emotionalism that underpins much of what we'd call racism, sexism, and religious bigotry. Which in turn fuels more wars and violence between nations, and cultures and their peoples. It's exactly that closing of the mind in righteous disgust that is the precursor to more extreme and disastrous behaviors.
Amen Sister! :yes:
PureX
Veteran Member
Yes, I do. I respect it, and even participate in it occasionally. But I also can see how it can be wrong, counter-productive, and dangerous .
I am sorry, but pedophilia is never acceptable in any form. In this country, you do that and you go to jail. I don't of many cultures that accept this as the norm, but just remind to stay away from any culture that does especially if I have my children with me. There are some things we don't have to accept!