Should Women's Homeless Shelters Ban Trans Identified Males?

[Shadow Wolf]

Asking questions IS 'requiring it.'

No, it isn't. When you are asked you are free to volunteer that information. When it's required, you have no choice. When it comes to medical records, the law leans extremely heavily towards keeping them private and illegal for all unauthorized parties to access.

 

[tytlyf]

There are documented cases of trans women sexually assaulting biological females

Interesting, got a case I can look at?

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Interesting, got a case I can look at?

Do you know what google is?

 

[fantome profane]

There are documented cases of trans women sexually assaulting biological females

Interesting, got a case I can look at?

Do you know what google is?

As a thought experiment just name any two identifiable groups, by whatever arbitrary criteria you wish. Gender, sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity, age etc.

And you can google and find examples of group A assaulting group B.

Old people attacking young people, young people attacking old people. Gay attacking straight, straight attacking gay. This ethnic group attacking that ethnic group and so on.

I would not be at all surprised if somewhere sometime a trans individual committed an act of violence. They are human. But trans people are the victims of violence at an extremely disproportionate percentage.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

As a thought experiment just name any two identifiable groups, by whatever arbitrary criteria you wish. Gender, sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity, age etc.

And you can google and find examples of group A assaulting group B.

Old people attacking young people, young people attacking old people. Gay attacking straight, straight attacking gay. This ethnic group attacking that ethnic group and so on.

I would not be at all surprised if somewhere sometime a trans individual committed an act of violence. They are human. But trans people are the victims of violence at an extremely disproportionate percentage.

He thought he was being original when "Can you prove it" was already said and done. Yes transgender are victims of violence but they also perpetuate it

 

[dianaiad]

No, it isn't. When you are asked you are free to volunteer that information. When it's required, you have no choice. When it comes to medical records, the law leans extremely heavily towards keeping them private and illegal for all unauthorized parties to access.

Not a problem.

they don't have to hand over the medical records.
the shelter doesn't have to let them in.

Their choice.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Not a problem.

they don't have to hand over the medical records.
the shelter doesn't have to let them in.

Their choice.

That would be illegal discrimination, and increasingly courts are ruling that discrimination on the basis of sex includes those who are transgender.
There is no way a judge will OK subpoenaing medical records or allow the requirement of them be revealed for such things. Its a nasty can of worms to open and is in major violation of the law.

 

[dianaiad]

That would be illegal discrimination, and increasingly courts are ruling that discrimination on the basis of sex includes those who are transgender.
There is no way a judge will OK subpoenaing medical records or allow the requirement of them be revealed for such things. Its a nasty can of worms to open and is in major violation of the law.

Refusing to allow a man into a woman's shelter is not discrimination, legal or illegal.

So if a man...physically a man...claims that he's not really a man and therefore belongs in a woman's shelter, it is not illegal or discrimination to ask for support for his claim.

If he refuses to provide it, then....there is no law, reason or common sense anything that would require the shelter to let him in.

And no court in the world would support that.

I mean, really? A fully functional male comes to a woman's shelter and says 'but I'm really a woman" and expects that shelter to just let him in, without any support for his claim whatsoever?

I don't think so.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So if a man...physically a man...claims that he's not really a man and therefore belongs in a woman's shelter, it is not illegal or discrimination to ask for support for his claim.

It would have to be taken up as falsifying documents. There is absolutely no way to get around HIPPA in ways you have mentioned. If someone comes to the shelter as female, their ID says female, they can't legally ask questions relating to their medical history as it pertains to their transition. Now, say someone comes to the shelter as female but their ID says male (which is very common at some point in the life of any transsexual) then some questions can be asked, but only to clarify things and again they legally face many barriers that are legally unmoving. If they show up as a guy, they probably don't belong.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yes. I am. YOU are talking about a system that is already 'heavily policed and regulated' and assume that this heavily policed and regulated system is going to simply take a man's word for it that he is trans and doesn't belong in a men's shelter?

Ain't gonna happen. Any shelter that does this is anything BUT 'heavily policed and regulated."

If you're just going to continue to ignore the blatant, gaping holes I've pointed to in your own argument (and your lie about the number of transgendered people), then there's no point in continuing to debate this subject with you.

 

[dianaiad]

It would have to be taken up as falsifying documents. There is absolutely no way to get around HIPPA in ways you have mentioned. If someone comes to the shelter as female, their ID says female, they can't legally ask questions relating to their medical history as it pertains to their transition. Now, say someone comes to the shelter as female but their ID says male (which is very common at some point in the life of any transsexual) then some questions can be asked, but only to clarify things and again they legally face many barriers that are legally unmoving. If they show up as a guy, they probably don't belong.

\Moving the goal posts.

BOY are you moving the goal posts.

If someone comes to the shelter as female, their ID says female, then that would be SUPPORT for the claim of BEING female, wouldn't it?

I am talking about a man who looks like a man, is physically male, and whose ID says he is male, claiming to really be female.

Stop moving the goalposts here, Shadow wolf.

Again, in such a case it is NOT illegal, nor against HIPPA laws. to ask the applicant for support for that claim before s/he is allowed in.

HIPPA does not apply to the person whose medical records are in question. I can give you any information I want to. I can authorize anybody to give medical information to whomever I want. That's part of what HIPPA is about; putting that control into the hands of the patient.

Insurance companies can ask me for medical information before they issue policies. They can't go around me and get this information without my authorization, but they can sure ask ME, and if I say 'none of your business,' they can say...in that case, we won't issue a policy.

The same thing goes for state agencies, except of course that the law says that if a patient has (for instance) an epileptic seizure or faints as the result of a head injury, the doctor MUST...(not 'can,' but 'must') report that to the state for the purposes of driver's licenses and some other things. No HIPPA restrictions there...the doctor who refuses to report it can be sued and lose his/her license if an accident happens because the patient has a seizure and causes an injury.

But the point that you keep ignoring is this: HIPPA doesn't apply to the patient. The patient can authorize any disclosure of medical information s/he wishes. A service provider (insurance companies or shelters or rehab facilities or hospice care providers and the like, who need that information) can ask the patient for that information, and if the patient says 'no,' then there is no requirement for the service provider to, er, provide the service.

So if a woman comes to a shelter who looks female, whose ID says 'female,' and is only found to be physically male 'under the clothes,' ....how does what I say apply to her? I'd say she supported her contention rather well.

Pay attention and stop arguing strawmen.

And STOP moving the goal posts@!

 

[dianaiad]

If you're just going to continue to ignore the blatant, gaping holes I've pointed to in your own argument (and your lie about the number of transgendered people), then there's no point in continuing to debate this subject with you.

Yep, you lost this one.

 

[Shad]

Homeless shelters could deny transgender people under proposed Trump administration rule

I don't necessarily disagree with the policy because many homeless women have been completely traumatized by males. These women have been sexually exploited by males, sexually assaulted by males and subject to domestic violence mostly by males. They live in fear of their live, many suffering PTSD because of what they have suffered at the hands of males and the very presence of a male can be traumatic for them.

And the other hand trans identified males need to be sheltered too and not in men's shelters where they can be subjected to violence. The only solution I see is to create shelters specifically for them. It is a complicated issue.

Voted other as I would rather see policy divide between a general homeless shelter and a women's shelter. This would be obvious be an improvement of the system thus require more, or better funding.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

False equivalence. Being intersex and transgender are two different things.

Not really. Transsexualism (the original medical term for it) could be an intersex disorder. It's at least a disorder of sexual differentiation. Not all who fall under the "transgender" umbrella are transsexuals, though. Transsexuals are pretty much being left behind by the "non-binary" trend that's popular, but I digress.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I can't answer the poll question as stated as it makes no sense. No, trans men shouldn't be in women's shelters. Trans women should be allowed, however.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

\Moving the goal posts.

BOY are you moving the goal posts.

If someone comes to the shelter as female, their ID says female, then that would be SUPPORT for the claim of BEING female, wouldn't it?

I am talking about a man who looks like a man, is physically male, and whose ID says he is male, claiming to really be female.

Stop moving the goalposts here, Shadow wolf.

Again, in such a case it is NOT illegal, nor against HIPPA laws. to ask the applicant for support for that claim before s/he is allowed in.

HIPPA does not apply to the person whose medical records are in question. I can give you any information I want to. I can authorize anybody to give medical information to whomever I want. That's part of what HIPPA is about; putting that control into the hands of the patient.

Insurance companies can ask me for medical information before they issue policies. They can't go around me and get this information without my authorization, but they can sure ask ME, and if I say 'none of your business,' they can say...in that case, we won't issue a policy.

The same thing goes for state agencies, except of course that the law says that if a patient has (for instance) an epileptic seizure or faints as the result of a head injury, the doctor MUST...(not 'can,' but 'must') report that to the state for the purposes of driver's licenses and some other things. No HIPPA restrictions there...the doctor who refuses to report it can be sued and lose his/her license if an accident happens because the patient has a seizure and causes an injury.

But the point that you keep ignoring is this: HIPPA doesn't apply to the patient. The patient can authorize any disclosure of medical information s/he wishes. A service provider (insurance companies or shelters or rehab facilities or hospice care providers and the like, who need that information) can ask the patient for that information, and if the patient says 'no,' then there is no requirement for the service provider to, er, provide the service.

So if a woman comes to a shelter who looks female, whose ID says 'female,' and is only found to be physically male 'under the clothes,' ....how does what I say apply to her? I'd say she supported her contention rather well.

Pay attention and stop arguing strawmen.

And STOP moving the goal posts@!

I'm not moving goal posts. You are the one suggesting illegal means and wanting things you will never be granted access to. I don't think you realize how strict HIPPa actually is. It's so strict and unyielding its adamantium-clad locks that it even extends to job interviews and applications, and questions that ask about your health, age, pregnancy, and many others are illegal to ask.
If you work in the medical field, if you need information, literally every other means is easier and probably more legal than probing into someones medical history if you aren't authorized to access it.

 

[dianaiad]

I'm not moving goal posts. You are the one suggesting illegal means

No. I have not. That is strictly your imagination.

There is NO post from me which has me supporting illegal searches around the back of an applicant for shelter. Not one. That is strictly you putting words in my keyboard. Stop that.

........and wanting things you will never be granted access to.

Wanting things I will never be granted access to?

Fine. If I'm running a woman's shelter, I want some support that I'm giving shelter to a woman. That means that if a man shows up, looking like a 'man' and with ID that says 'male,' I want some support other than his 'say so' that he is trans. I want that.

I might not get access to that, but if the applicant doesn't want to provide that, I won't let him in.

I'm not going to investigate his claims without his authorization. Nor have I ever stated that this should be done.

I have used the insurance company analogy several times now. You aren't paying attention. No insurance company is going to investigate my medical record without my previous authorization and permission. No insurance company is going to sell me a policy if I don't answer their medical questions, either.

That is precisely the same thing when dealing with a woman only shelter. If an obvious man shows up and claims to be trans, I'm going to ask him to support his claim. If he does, fine. If he doesn't, he doesn't get in. I'm not going to chase him down and arrest him...and that sort if thing has come out of your brain, not mine.

I don't think you realize how strict HIPPa actually is. It's so strict and unyielding its adamantium-clad locks that it even extends to job interviews and applications, and questions that ask about your health, age, pregnancy, and many others are illegal to ask.

Not if the information asked for is pertinent to the job. Someone applying to be a teacher IS going to be asked if s/he has had all his/her vaccinations, has a history of TB (or has the clear TB test), or has traveled outside the US and has been tested for the diseases one can get in other places and can put future students at risk. One may be asked to prove that s/he is free of any hint of any of those diseases. If s/he doesn't provide that information, s/he isn't going to get the job. And that is NOT a violation of HIPPA. A violation of HIPPA would involve the employer going behind the applicant's back and asking for information from his/her doctor without a clear, dated and signed, authorization from the applicant.

I have had to sign enough of those to know this.

And so have you.

If a man wants entrance into a woman's shelter, I think that information regarding his claim to be trans is VERY pertinent to the request.

If you work in the medical field, if you need information, literally every other means is easier and probably more legal than probing into someones medical history if you aren't authorized to access it.

And I have not once suggested that someone SHOULD 'probe into someone's medical history if you aren't authorized to access it." That's YOUR strawman.

In fact, I have made it QUITE clear that it is the applicant who should be asked. It is his choice whether to provide that information or not. It is then the choice of the shelter to offer services.

Or not.

I have not even once suggested or hinted or implied that a shelter should have the authority or right to investigate anything without the authorization of the applicant.

Again, HIPPA does not apply to the applicant, who can disclose anything s/he wants to anybody s/he wants.

It is the choice of the service provider (in this case, the shelter) to decide whether to provide that service when the applicant refuses to give pertinent information...such as, whether or not HE is actually trans.

True, the shelter can't ask questions that are NOT pertinent to the service. However, whether a man is male or female or trans IS pertinent, when the shelter is for (whisper this, or shout it, whatever...) a WOMEN"S shelter.

 

[Prestor John]

Homeless shelters could deny transgender people under proposed Trump administration rule

I don't necessarily disagree with the policy because many homeless women have been completely traumatized by males. These women have been sexually exploited by males, sexually assaulted by males and subject to domestic violence mostly by males. They live in fear of their live, many suffering PTSD because of what they have suffered at the hands of males and the very presence of a male can be traumatic for them.

And the other hand trans identified males need to be sheltered too and not in men's shelters where they can be subjected to violence. The only solution I see is to create shelters specifically for them. It is a complicated issue.

Considering that like 98% of homeless people are male, I don't know why there are so many homeless centers for women.

Anyways, if the center is built for women only women should be able to go there.

Men who are confused into thinking they should be perceived as female are not women.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Considering that like 98% of homeless people are male, I don't know why there are so many homeless centers for women.

Anyways, if the center is built for women only women should be able to go there.

Men who are confused into thinking they should be perceived as female are not women.

Not even close. Watching The Andy Griffith Show is not a good model to base one's statistics upon. Yes, there are more homeless men than homeless women, but not a lot. It is roughly 60% men and 40% women:

Homelessness in the United States - Wikipedia

 

[The Reverend Bob]

Not even close. Watching The Andy Griffith Show is not a good model to base one's statistics upon. Yes, there are more homeless men than homeless women, but not a lot. It is roughly 60% men and 40% women:

Homelessness in the United States - Wikipedia

And women are more vulnerable to street predators, especially mentally ill women